Salaam,

Don't worry about it, we all make mistakes - the important part is that we make amends and turn to Allah to show us a better way. That's if you mean larger mistakes, not over typos though... that might be a bit strange and unnecessary.

I too have contemplated that we are not really supposed to figure out what shaytan is or other things in the Quran for that matter. In fact, it can make things easier for us as we get things gradually bit by bit. Just as long as we put faith and trust in Allah after He has clearly guided to and blessed us with.

Personally, I don't have the desire to find out exactly what it is, it might be nice to know some things if Allah wills - I just contemplate what I can and I also think that maybe I don't need to know all this. Allah bestows both knowledge and wisdom and they both have their place. Wisdom is just as important as knowledge in my opinion.

God guides us to what we need and protects us from what we don't. As He says call upon Him for anything, and that He is the Most Merciful, we can understand that trusting Allah is the natural conclusion that we can reach when trying to understand our relationship with God.

Completely agree, supportpeacenotwar. Thanks for the great chat

Salam Check1,

Yes indeed. in fact praying to Allah sincerely and hoping for the best is the only thing we can.

I also have same belief as you towards hadith that i am strongly against it. In fact i believe that so ncalled authentic Hadiths are the only reason of so many miseries in the current world. Another great thing I have experienced is reading Quran. personally, I wouldn't want to go very deep and try to find meaning and do research for each and every single words written in Quran. if we do that, are we not doing the same thing who wrote different Hadiths trying to explain Quran? I strongly believe, Quran teaches us a way of life and it is extremely easy to understand using our intellect. Once we understand the whole concept of Quran and its message, i do not think its necessary to go into detailed explanation of every words either in Arabic or English. I have always been reading English translation and never found difficult to understand no matter who translated it.

Do you like reading books? As you said you have this anger and upset feeling inside you due to your brother's situation, I would suggest you to read the book I have mentioned earlier (The power by Rhonda Byrne). It may sound like I am doing advert for the book but not really, I am telling you because I had the same feeling of anger, worry, upset kind of things in my brain and this book helped me alot to realize what i was missing by inviting all this kind of feelings within me.

May God Keep us in the right path always.

Salaam oneandonly,

I completely agree with you. I do like reading books and I will definitely give Byrne's book a read. Thank you for suggesting it. I will let you know what I think of it when I've finished.

Best.

Great typo. I first used this username after I felt angry at the images and information coming out of Wikileaks about how many in the army mercilessly killed civilians and there was a culture of doing whatever they wanted. I already was aware, I'd heard of "shooting at the landscape". It sickens me, but we have to leave anger and I trust in Allah's (swt) promise and He never fails in His promise.

I think we may have reached the natural conclusion of our discussion then... in terms of the shaitan/iblis thing, I looked at it quite straightforwardly. It's how I look at the Quran and most things in like. I much prefer pragmatism and a practical way of doing things rather than overly complex "academic" formulations. They have their place, but when it comes to "real world" application, things are actually more simple than we think, I believe.

So as I'm still researching it myself, I wonder if the concept of Shaitan is not the way we typically understand it? Is it a type of environment or social condition, such as social malaise? Is it ego in a sense that ego is related to Shaitan but it not entirely Shaitan and its more than that? Something can be described as a Shaitan once it specifically decides to do evil and consider itself in a way that obstructs from the path of Allah (swt) but more than that - one that obstructs from the paths of peace that Allah (swt) guides towards. One that is at war with the world - so Iblis is possibly one Shaitan at war with humanity as man is made of clay and he is made of fire - but there is not necessarily THE shaytan.

Everything can be run by God, but look at the world God has allowed us to have some reign over things - that is part of the way things are run at this point in time. God has allowed this to be, given us an allotted time and then the Day of Judgement will occur. The devil comes in depending on how you understand the devil, from what I've read of the Quran, the devil is not a specific single being.

One way to distinguish what happens from the devil and what happens from God is 1. to use our reason that God gave us and consider whether it is good or not. If we aren't sure, why not leave it and simply ask God? Isn't God the source of knowledge?

We are helped whether or not we do the things God wants us to do. We may never do some of the things completely, God had not stopped sustaining you and not stopped Mercy. God helped all of us discover and come toward Islam before we even realised what this was. Did we have knowledge of it before this? Did we know how to get to the point we are now? No, it's a journey we're on, constantly guided by God, if we wish to take God's guidance. In terms of the other questions, not we don't have to worry about anything. We simply have to place trust in God. Who would be better to trust than God?

LOL... wow, great typo indeed. These days, my mind is elsewhere. Been making stupid mistakes a lot lately. I also think I said in an earlier post something along the lines of the prophet living a century and a half ago... by "century" I meant "millenium". You know, just a small error lol.

Yeah, I often wonder the same about what exactly shaytaan is... I guess in the end, it doesn't really matter. I think we as humans have this natural desire to get to the root of things and make life as black and white as possible. We find it somewhat unsettling not knowing the entire story. But, I guess we're not meant to really know. Maybe that's why God has made things a little vague for us. So that we can learn to just put all of our trust in Him and let Him slowly guide us to clarity. Since people now and throughout history have struggled with this concept, they've managed to alter religion in ways that's more "satisfying" for them, such as by altering revelations and creating hadiths. God says in the Quran, " He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed. " (37)

I guess we're not meant to completely understand some concepts. Maybe that is a test in itself. Those who believe will eventually learn to trust God, like you suggest. Those who harbor some doubts, will find alternatives. I just pray that I can get to the stage where I don't have to worry and can just trust in God 100%. I think God led me to this site so that I can discuss this topic with faithful people, such as yourself. So insha'Allah, through God, we can help each other gain that strength.

Salaam,

No problem, Insha'Allah my posts help in some way. It's natural to feel this way - after a feeling of loss we try to understand what's happened and to me it sounds like you're grieving. I'm really sorry - there are some challenges in this life but who knows what other good may come in the end of this. Like you said with one loss, that of your brother, you found the greatest blessing and have Allah (swt) who created you and your brother and everything we love and know. Sometimes, people say that with the loss of something may Allah (swt) bring about another blessing and replace what we have lost. This may have already happened or is yet to happen. With hardship there is ease and patience is a gift from Allah (swt) as it says in the Noble Quran. So please believe God when He says He will help you. At first it may seem hard putting trust in God, but once you do you'll realise it is the most natural thing you can do. Ask Him to help you put trust Him if you need to, He's always near and I know He makes things easier all the time. He'll definitely alleviate the burden you may feel as He burdens no soul with more than it has strength to bear.

I personally don't say things are form the devil or not. I'm a bit short on time right now so I can't check the verse but from what I recall there is a verse that states that Allah (swt) knows what our own souls suggest to us. At the same time we are told not to forget our own souls, so I don't think this means that our souls are sort of "against us", it seems metaphorical. I don't actually know exactly what Shaytan is. I'm still working through it and tbh I should be spending more time on that than debating with atheists! I don't think it is Iblis, interestingly I came across a verse in the Abdel Haleem translation that said Satan was right in his opinion of those who continuously rejected their Creator without remorse. I have the verse on hand - 3420 I thought if it actually is Shaytan that must mean that it's Iblis. So I checked the transliteration but it says Iblis in there not Shaytan. The fact that this is what happens in translation but the transliteration remains I think in itself is a very important point, but that's going a bit off topic. As far as I recall, Iblis is never named Shaytan. And some say Shaytan is like our ego. While I agree ego is a problem for us and something we can all overcome, I wonder if Shaytan is that or something else. If that part about what our own souls whisper to us is true, does that mean there are two things that whisper to us? Or is there a metaphor being used here that we are overlooking? Anyway, my point is that this might not just be from Shaytan but from human beings ourselves. So I prefer to stick to the idea that the hadith are man made.

You are right in that modern Islam focuses on the hadith. Not everyone following Hadith is the same, some do it carefully and only follow something that happens to work for them on a personal level but they know the Quran is the actual word of God. In terms of Salafis or extremism, in terms of demonising them, I think its a case of they are still human beings and I don't want to end up being like them. They may just be misguided as in the case of your brother or they may not. We should clearly oppose them, I think that's enough. Could you clarify what demonising them would mean in practice? Or maybe there is another word you would use?

I think mostly through the Quran if people actually follow it they will be balanced and realise that extremism is the antithesis of Islam. If think once you really understand the Quran, you realise its message was simply the Reminder that you had with you as Allah (swt) bestows us all with knowledge once we ask for it. The core of the teaching is peace, even if that seems like an oft-repeated phrase. However, some fundamentalism can exist among even Quran only Muslims although maybe not as bad at the extremists. The Quran constantly urges us to give the reminder and then leave people to whatever it is. I think if we cannot accept Hadith we should also be sure we cannot accept any approach that focuses on fighting people. We should do this for Allah and for ourselves. I've seen some people who have an approach on fighting - not really here but elsewhere - and it just seems like they want to focus on the Quran because it allows them to do this. I could be wrong on that, but it can seem that way.

May Allah (swt) bless you and all those who seek Him.

Supportwarnotpeace, you make some great points. I think right now, the rawness of my emotions is keeping me from thinking as analytically as you. There is an anger inside of me that seems to only be extinguished (though briefly) through placing blame on someone and trying to simplify a rather complex issue. Like I mentioned before, I know I shouldn't hold anger within me, I know I shouldn't judge, and I know I shouldn't promote hate. Right now though, I just don't know HOW to do that. It's a struggle that I'm praying God will help me resolve. It's probably going to take some time.

In regards to the shaytaan/iblis concept you pointed out, I have not contemplated it as extensively as you have. I'm actually really glad you mentioned it though. I may have too simple of an interpretation of the good and bad of the world. At this point in my faith, it seems I feel like all the good (as it is defined in the Quran) comes from God, and all the bad comes from the devil. I suppose that may be too elementary of a mindset. I'm not really sure. Maybe that is why so many things don't make sense to me. For example, what I constantly struggle to understand is, if everything happens for a reason and everything is run by God, then where does the devil come in? How do we distinguish between the things that happen from the devil and the things that happen from God? You know? Is it just like... if we do everything that we believe God would want us to do, we can rest assured that He will help us? and we don't have to worry about the devil? Doesn't the devil try to impact us all the time? Sometimes bad things that are associated with the devil happen to good people... is God running that too? This really confuses me. Your explanation of what shaytaan could be further increases my confusion.

And in response to your question about demonizing individuals in practice, I don't think I meant "demonizing" so much as an action as I did a mindset. But, after reading your post, it seems our definitions of "demon" and "shaytaan" and "iblis" are different. So, I'm not really sure how to go about furthering discussion on this topic...

I hope this post made sense.

salam,

First of all welcome to the forum welcome

I believe most of the people who believe only in Quran must be feeling similar way you feel in the begining. Myself I am new to this Forum and to be honest I also feel very lonely. I guess its easier to discuss with people if you are in Europe or US. I stay in Dubai and I have to think twice before i even say I dont belive in Hadith (they might call fatwa on me). I came from different religion and converted to Sunni Islam in the begining. later after coming to know the truth about god and religion, I have decided to boycott all religious duties and started following Quran only and with intellect. and now i have realize I have really been alone. i cannot go back to my family and friends of my past religion and be part of any celebrations and now certainly I cannot go to the so called Islamic religion ceremonies.. (please bear in mind most of the celebrations either includes religious duties and if western includes intoxication, in both case I do not want to be part of). Which means I am left alone. I even thought of trying to find someone who has similar belief like us through this site and started a post here asking if there is anyone from Dubai whom I can meet or be friend with but till now no success.

I understand your worry i guess as I am in the similar situation. Its easy to say it does not matter what religion person we marry or live together as long as our faith is correct. but actually it does. for example, I will say, i can marry a Hindu lady bcause i know what my belief is but how will I get married to her without getting involved into religious activity? Same with Muslim, Buddhist and Christianity.. there is not even a single so called religion which do not have religious activity during marriage. May be we can find a way to live together without getting into any ceremony in Europe and US but not in Middle East and Asia (its atmost rare that we find people who thinks these practises are not required in this parts of the world). I do trust in Allah and believe that he has plans for me but i still think i need to worry as i cannot come to a conclusion what I should do regarding future married life. Even if I manage to marry a lady how can I be sure that our difference in beliefs will not be a major issue for our relation to break???

I recently read a book called "The Power" by Rhonda byrne which very much helped me to get some positive thinking. but a small worry about my future life still remains in a corner of my brain. I hope some of our guided brothers and sisters here can give us some advise. !

I am sorry about your brother, lets ask Allah to guide him to the right path one day. I also have some friends who are converted and became salafi. I know how they are and how they act. I do not feel angry but feel pity on them and ask Allah to guide them one day. i am still friend with them but maintain my limits without getting into any heated debate. I guess thats the best way we can do..

I am really happy to know that Allah has let you realize the truth and make you one of the guided one. Insallah, In future as well you will be guided more and be closer to Allah.

at the end I hope I dide not give you more worry with my grief.. brickwall

Peace

Salaam oneandonly,

Thanks for your response. Yes, I harbor much of the same worries as you do. Another major concern I'm sure has crossed your mind is, if you marry someone who does not share your religious beliefs, how will you be able to raise your kids? Isn't it a parent's responsibility to expose the child to the correct religion? If the child has a parent with one belief and another parent with a completely separate belief, will the child not get confused? I've got lots of friends who have become atheists because of the confusion of being brought up by parents of different religions. It's going to be tough to find someone who you are compatible with and who follows the Quran alone. But, like you, there is nothing I can do but pray to God for help. Only He can help us, right? It's hard to completely put all your trust in God. I think that is an ability that strengthens over time. But, God willing, everything will work out for the better so long as we do our best to follow His path. It has to, right?

Peace and all the best to you.

Salaam check1,

Firstly, I agree with much of what you said and I understand this is a sensitive topic for you because of your brother. I will try to treat it with some care. I read my post and there's nothing really about sugar coating the Salafis beliefs. I am saying that we do not demonise the Salafis or any group for that matter.

in fact, the Jews were demonised by the Nazis, so my point remains. The point here is what we do for Allah. Do you think Allah (swt) would want us to hold onto hatred towards these people? No, I'm sure you don't think so. So my specific point about demonisation relates directly to this. That we maintain our character and actions in the face of what they do. I meant that we don't end up doing what the Salafis do and we are critical of them because they may very well "demonise" us. We should definitely be firm in our arguments with them, to the point and we don't need to go around pretending we love them. But I think there is a strong difference in the types of behaviour. Remember in the PM I mentioned about Ahl-al-Hadith? That's because I didn't realise they were sometimes called Salafis. From what I've heard in Pakistan, they do things in a very similar way to Sunnis. So its possible there are different types although not sure about this, so don't take my word for it.

I agree with most of the other points about how they practise religion. They most definitely do talk about Muhammad much more than about God, I would say this can also apply to Sunnis, Shia and some of the other groups. I really disagree with that but I don't think that changes my original point. I also strongly agree with your point about just simply doing things because someone else told you to. Definitely be yourself, and follow your own mind. There are plenty of people out there who will try to change an individual's ideas, mannerism, attitude to life. This in itself is a form of control and not being able to accept each others differences. We should all be encouraged to be who we are and not simply mimic or do things like other people because they do it or we were told to.

Thanks for your response, supportpeacenotwar. I think I am personally very passionate about this topic because it hits so close to home. If my brother was not affected in the manner he was, I would most likely have the same views on the matter as you. I understand that if it were not for the change in my brother, I would never have taken the time to research Islam and the Quran and thus would not have been guided the way I have been. So, for that, I am thankful.

However, there is also this dilemma now that I believe we all face as submitters. That is that we have to be extra cautious that none of these Salafi or other extreme "Islamic" beliefs influence our loved ones. To embrace submission, don't we all have to agree that the hadiths are the doings of the devil? Isn't that a component of our belief system? Therefore, a person who follows the hadiths or the so-called "sunna" of the prophet to the extreme is also following through with the devil's work. Is he not? For me, I worry about this and I feel very combative about it. The hadith ideology has broken my family in a major way. I basically feel like my brother died and I will never see him again. That's how much pain I carry in my heart. So now, I constantly worry about all my other loved ones. Will a hadith-follower negatively influence my other relatives? What if one day I am married and have kids and my husband becomes like my brother or my child becomes like my brother?

I am very strongly against following the hadith and I believe that God is also very upset about the creation of the hadith. Therefore, don't I have to let it be known to my loved ones that anything related to the hadith is associated with a path unaffiliated with God? I feel like it's important to be clear about that because any person who embraces the Quran can easily also embrace the hadiths, since they play such a prevalent role in modern-day Islam. Don't you think? I know I mention Salafism a lot, but that is not that only belief system that I am against. I believe that any other religious groups are following beliefs that have been greatly influenced by the devil. Thus, I do not want to partake in any of them. I just don't feel as threatened by extreme followers of other religions because they are so different from Islam. I am particularly threatened by extreme Islam because we share the Quran and in today's society, if one embraces the Quran, there is a lot of pressure for him/her to automatically embrace the hadith as well. Is there not?

So to cut to the chase, I want to ask, how can I not demonize "muslim" extremists if what I believe is that a major component of their actions come from the doings of the devil? That's what extremism is all about. If one were following the Quran to the extreme, he/she would never really become extreme because God's religion teaches balance. It is only through the hadith that one can possibly become extreme and, unfortunately in many cases, destructive. What are your thoughts?

Thanks and, as always, your input is much appreciated.

Salaam,

I did not mean to offend, I was making a parallel I usually make, but I did not intend to hurt. I sometimes compare tragic behavior with this motion picture.

I really meant that I am sorry about your brother.

I am so sorry.

God bless you

Apology accepted. I realize now that you did not mean what you said in a negative way. I am just super sensitive on the matter, so please excuse me if I overreacted.

He's apologised now and I think he meant it as a reflection upon the way your described your brother.

Yeah. Plus, I would say we should not demonise the Salafis. not saying you are but the way these types of things are. I know there's good and bad everywhere but we wouldn't want to demonise the Atheists would we?Is it easier to challenge Salafis, Sunnis, Shia etc because they are an extension of the Muslim world as a whole? Labels don't matter in the end, there can be some Salafis who can end up being close to God even if they were hypocritical, in God's eyes, before and there are some Atheists - even though not hypocritical - who may never come closer to God. C'est la vie.

The way I see it, Salafis are very proud people. They think they know it all and they think anyone who doesn't do as they do will be punished. They do not let you express your own opinions and if you say anything that counters their beliefs, they label you as an innovator or a kufar. I've gotten the "kufar" label many times. It's interesting that a so-called "Muslim" person can call a person who believes in the Quran a "kufar". You have to basically be a robot who does everything they say without having any of your own opinions and without ever using your own reasoning. Supportpeacenotwar, it is interesting that your signature is from a person who was in a concentration camp. The Nazi era is a perfect example of such brainwashing behavior. Hitler got an entire country to go against the Jews. No one was allowed to think and if they went against his orders, they would be punished. How is the Salafi mindset any different?

It's as though the Salafis believe they are Gods on earth and that they have the right to judge others. After all the destruction I've seen them cause, I am very weary of them, to say the least. You can sugar-coat their behavior all you want, but in the end, it is what it is. I'd honestly love to meet one Salafi who does not meet the characteristics I just described. I would love to be corrected on this matter. I, unfortunately, don't see that happening though. The truth is, if you live your life following random people's claims on what the prophet supposedly did or did not do almost a century and a half ago, you will be absolutely miserable in this life and will hate anyone around you who isn't as miserable as you are. Also, how can civilization progress for the better if we have people following the ways of people who lived 1400 yrs ago? I'm sorry but mimicking how they ate and went to the bathroom, etc, is NOT religion! That is absolutely absurd. God would never want us to focus on a human being even more than we do on God Himself. Whenever I hear Salafis talk, it is always "Muhammad did this and Muhammad did that". I very rarely if ever hear, "God said this and God said that". If that isn't idol worship, I don't know what is. I know I'm judging a lot... but how can I view matters any differently? I just hope one day, I can be at peace and just follow my religion the way I believe God intended it.

I hope you don't feel like I'm attacking you. I just feel very strongly that Salafis are acting out the doings of the devil. I feel like I have seen enough of their destruction to rightly feel this way. Like I mentioned, I know I shouldn't judge. But, I don't see how else I can view the matter.

Man of Faith, did you mean it as a joke? If so, yeah I am upset by your words. Call me sensitive, but this is a sensitive issue. Talking about my problem is something very hard for me. I never talk to anyone about it. I always pretend like I'm fine. So hearing you joke about it makes me regret opening up.

Supportpeacenotwar, thanks for reply. I'll keep that in mind.

Thanks guys... I really needed to hear that. The reason why I finally decided to do my own research on the Quran and Islam as most know it today is because a few years ago my brother turned to Salafi Islam. His entire personality changed after that, as you can only imagine. He went from being a boy who loved life, would smile ALL the time, make jokes, and was super kind and patient, to someone who walks around with a frown on his face 24/7, quickly gets agitated, is filled with hatred, and has given up on all of his ambitions and love for life. He used to be my best friend, now we barely talk. I feel like I lost my little brother and it hurts so much you can't even imagine. I struggled through feelings of loss, guilt, anger, and depression. The one good thing that came out of all of this is that I found what true Islam is. That is the biggest blessing one could ask for. I pray to God that my brother will also be guided the way I have been. It's still a struggle to see my kid brother like this and I try my best to stay strong and focus on my own life. But... it's really hard. Whenever I see an imam or someone who is blatantly following traditional Islam, I can't help but feel anger towards them. I know it's bad to judge and to hate, but I guess I'm still developing emotionally along God's path. Hopefully one day, I will be at peace with everything. Not there yet, though. Am glad I found you guys.

Hey all,

My journey to this point has been long and quite exhausting. Now that I'm here, I feel very alone. My family and Muslim friends think I'm crazy to believe in the Quran alone. I'm already 25 and as I'm getting older, I am starting to worry about what my future will be like. If I'm struggling this much with everyone around me in terms of religion, I fear that my future will be similar. I know God is in charge and if He wills it, everything will be okay. The anxiety from the uncertainty still gets to me though. I'm glad I found this site though. Hopefully this will be a turning point for the better