Hi Riz.

I understand your problem, becuse there was a time when I felt the same way (back in the late 90's) I became an all-out aetheist.

I will give my humble opinion about prayer and Ramadan . I m only human and I may be wrong, but this is how I understand it.

1. Prayer

We know that the word "salat" actually means "relation" literally. So , when you are doing "salat" it means you are making a relation with God. This general meaning doesn't have a ritualistic form. It can be done 1000 times each day if you want. Simply mumbling silent prayers or when in your car, or about to start your day's work, or in a certain dangerous situation, or faced with hardships....etc.... All this is considered as "salat" in its general meaning.

The second meaning is the one concluded from the term "Akimu AlSalat"
or "Ikamat al Salat". The word seems to indicate a regularity and organization of prayer. This is the ritualistic prayer that is performed on a regular basis, and in an orderly fashion at certain times of the day. This is the prayer that you have to perform what is known as "ablution" before doing it ( as opposed to the first kind - or the general prayer discussed previously- which can be done at anytime and does NOT require "ablution" ).

This second kind of prayer ( the ritualistic one ) is to be done, in my opinion, TWO times each day, and not more Dawn and Dusk. Simple as that. If you read the Quran carefully, you will find nearly a dozen verses that stress the importance of these two times.

etc... All these meanings indicate dawn and dusk.

Read Verse 58 of Surat Al-Nour. You will find God mentions explicitly two prayers Salat al Fajr ( Dawn ) and Salat al- Isha'a ( Dusk ). He also mestions but not as a time of prayer, but as a time of rest and sleep ( and possibly a state of undress requiring permission to enter by certain household members - a knock on the door please!!!. wink )

Nowhere is a Noon or middle prayer mentioned in the Quran. Also, the correct word for noon time is and not . The correct meaning of sunset time is GHOUROUB and NOT MAGHREB.
Hence, the phrase "Salat al-Maghreb" that people use is ridiculous and laughable from a linguistic point of view. Maghreb is a DIRECTION and NOT a time. The correct way to say it would be "Salat al Ghouroub." or more precisely "Salat al Isha'a" as God calls it.

Now some of you may ask " What is Salat al Wusta then?"
IMHO, I don't think it means middle prayer. If there was indeed a middle prayer, and one so important, why didn't God mention it in all those other verses ( with dawn and dusk???) I think what is meant here by Salat al Wusta is a ritualistic prayer that is neither too short, nor too long, but somewhere in between.

2. Ramadan.

The word is actually derived from which means the sun-scorched or superheated earth. The word has the suffix and follows the rule of the example well known in the Arabic language

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etc....

Ramadan in therefore a SUMMER month, and should ALWAYS come in the summer. The name is NOT islamic. It was known to the Arabs before the Quran. In fact the "Hijri" months ,as they are called, all have meanings which were derived from natural phenomena of the desert life. Because of the ignorance of the Arabs of later ages and their insisting of using a purely lunar calendar, without paying attention to the seasons, the names of these months became meaningless.
Example "Rabee' al Awwal " and " Rabee' al Thani " literally mean First Spring and Second Spring. Yet nowadays we see that these months sometimes come in winter and sometimes in summer and sometimes in automn ( LOL )
"Muharam" should be a month were people abstain from hunting wild mamals because it is their mating season. And we know that mating season is in springtime. Hence Muharam should ALWAYS come in the spring.

"Jamadi" is a time when the world is cold and nature is figuratively frozen or barren ( it is a winter month )
Believe me when I say this . The desert climate can be horribly cold in winter ( especially night time ) I live in Kuwait. I know what it's like!!

Al these "Hijri" months have meanings derived from the natural world. But becuse of the ignorance of man, look what they've done with the Islamic "Taqweem" It is ridiculous to the extreme.

IMHO. Ramadan is a whole MONTH. 30 days to be fasted during late summer of every year. " Ayyam Maadoudat " can mean 30 days . So what??? I dont' see the problem of fasting 30 days every year during a FIXED and unchaging time.

doesn't God say "... "
So it's OK to fast the whole month .

The importance is that Muslims learn WHEN this month is , and to quit their differences and bickering over moonsightings. They can't even agree on this simple thing.

How sad.

Yes!

, ,
they are all acceptable meanings and can fit in all of the above- stated contexts I discussed.
And you're welcome, Taj.
( There's more coming your way). )

Ok Ayman, very interesting debate here... lol To be continued wink

As for Taj, I will certainly try to anwser your question concerning the possible meanings you pointed out.

Before I begin, let me ask you a simple question.

Let's say a certain word appears in the Quran 3 times. Which of the two following approaches would be more convenient in your opinion

• to come up with 3 different meanings for the word depending on the context of the verse in which it appears

• to actually find a meaning that fits all three ( a common meaning that works for all three verses )

In my opinion, the second is more logical.

you stated the possibility that might mean immerse, submerge, baptize , bathe, etc....
I ask you How would those meanings fit in verse 2267 ???

If we go along those possibilities, the verse would then be translated as such

" Oh you who believe, you shall give to charity from the good things that you earn and from what we have bestowed to you from the earth ; and do not immerse / submerge / bathe in / baptize the bad therein to give away, when you yourselves would not accept it unless your eyes be closed ; for God is rich and praiseworthy". ?????

LOL but that's meaningless!!.
I understand the temptation to give the word a different meaning each time...but if we can find a common meaning that fits all the verses , then don't you think it's the correct one???

Consider this ( I found this example on the usage of the word in a dictionary )

• meaning He sought / or picked out a particular enemy with his spear ( from a group of others presumably ).

Now considering your question about Imsahoo what??? biwoujouhikom?

Here is the answer
Read verse 56 carefully you will notice

".... Tayammamou Tayyiban, Famsahoo biwujoohikom wa aydiyakom MINHU.... " meaning the ( the soft clean sand )

Hence If you do not find water, go seek out a place of soft sand ( ) and wipe your faces and hands with it. ( the sand ) obviously.

Peace.

Peace Ayman...

I respect you opinion, but about this passage here I have something to say

(From the article you posted a link to)

"In summary, so-called Jahiliya poetry has been proven to be a product of Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties' entertainers and political propagandists, the same social forces that produced Hadiths. The natural law of supply and demand and the storytellers spreading their tales from town to town explains the widespread dissemination of such fabrications without the need for a systematic conspiracy."

So it claims that the Jahiliyya poetry was not in fact a product of pre-Quranic era, but actually a hoax by entertainers of the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties.

If this is indeed true, how can we explain the HUGE difference in style between this so called Jahiliyya poetry, and the actual poetry considered to be a product of the Abbasid era for example. The difference is so obvious anyone who compares the two can notice it.

Do you accept the fact that poets such as Al-Mutanabbi, Abu Nawwas, Abu Tammam existed in the Abbasid era? Or were they also fictitious characters?

Assuming Al-Mutanabbi was real for example, how come his style is so different from that of the fictional Tarafa? The differences run deep. They are differences in language, structure of verses, poetic style, even subject matter. How could they all come from the same age?

Sorry , my mistake

The word appears in rather than .
Forgive my error.

Very interesting, how this thread is turning out

By the way, concerning the poem, I think he was indeed describing a woman in those verses. Her name is "Unayza" . The poet states that he snuck into her tent past some guards at night, while she was in her bed dress ( she must have been of high social standing ). Then, later on , they snuck out with her donkey (LOL)
Here, briefly, are some of the verses.

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Then immediately, ( in the next verses ) he goes on to describe her body.

In the poem, we are led to assume that she received him in a state of undress, ( wearing her night gown ). Her ...um... cleavage oops must have been visible, so he goes on to describe it in the verse that is the subject of this discussion. ( isn't this how Jahiliya women used to dress anyway? They would cover their hair with a shawl to protect it from the heat and desert sand, but they would draw the shawl back around their neck leaving their bosom visible ) This is why God commanded them to cover that area with the shawl ( khimar ).

We can learn so much about those times from studying the poetry.

You can check out my post entitled "Jahilya poetry 1 " in this same section.

Peace

Oh and by the way...

does anyone know what "" means?
I can't remember ( does it mean ivory that is white and shining ? )
If "taraib" means ribs, then there is a possibility that he was describing his lover's ribs as being

meaning pronounced and protruding like white ivory

maybe the woman he described was thin, and had very fair skin. ?

I will look for the poem again.

taj.

Please excuse me... I studied Jahiliyya poetry way back in secondary school ( i was 15 yrs old ). I can't recall the poem.
Was he describing his donkey?
was he describing his camel??

He could have been describing his chimpanze for all I care wink
that's not the point. The point is he used the same word 'TARAIB' in his poetry, which indicates that Umru Al-Qays KNEW WHAT THE WORD MEANS.

The word appeared in the Quran and probably has the same meaning there.

I will try to find the poem again to see what exactly he was talking about.
( I remember it was a woman he described, but I can't be too sure ).

Good day!

Wakas stated that in the Arabic language, the plural form is used for numbers of three or greater. I agree with this. In arabic we have "muthanna" to denote 2, and "jam3" to denote 3 or more.

Hence the word "taraeb" actually means plural. The ribs seems to be the most accurate explanation. ( I don't believe it's specifically female anatomy) I also don't agree with the tranlasion that equates "taraeb" with "Viscera" ( Viscera actually means internal organ of some sort in English. It is the plural of Viscous )

Please consider the following

Any of you know of a "Jahiliyya" poet known as Umru Al-Qays?

I remember, in one of his poems, he was describing his lover's body. In the second part of a verse in the poem, he describes her as follows

............................

I can't remeber what the first part of the verse was. You can find it in any Arabic Jahiliyya poetry book.

I believe that the language of the Quran is essentially the same language used in the Jahiliyya era. I believe that Umru Al-Qays, if he were alive today, would be more qualified to explain the meaning of words in the Quran than all the so-called "ulama" of Islam combined.

You see, when the Quran talks about the "Poets" it is reffering to those poets of the calliber of Umru Al-Qays, Zuhair bin Abi Sulma, Tarafa Bin Abd, and so forth..

I will post other threads soon, containg words of the Quran that may be found in Jahiliyya poems.

Peace.

Hi again !
What's up?

I assume you've all read the previous post about the poet Umru Al-Qays and his usage of the word in his famous .
If you care to read more about this subject, I have taken the time to post another example.

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If you ask the typical Muslim about the meaning of the word or ( in the plural form ) , he or she will most certainly tell you that it means performing ablution ( ) with sand ( or some other material sometimes ) when water is not available. Hence the word has actually come to mean the act of ablution itself, with material other than water. ( Or, in some cases, with nothing )

I have even heard it myself . The elderly, who can't walk because of stiff joints , sometimes perform what they call "Tayammom" ( they would rub their feet with their hands while sitting on a couch , before performing their prayers - eventhough there is plenty of water available )

Conforming with the theory that the best way to determine the meaning of a certain word in the Quran is through the Quran itself , and to resort to Jahiliyya poetry - whenever possible - as a secondary tool to help us in our search, we will find that the word actually means "to seek out " or "to pick out "something.

The word actually appears three times in the Quran ( please correct me if I'm mistaken , but I could not find a fourth ).

The more common verses - from whence the erronuous interpretation of the word came - are as follows

This same meaning appears again in

But there is another verse where the word appears, that many people don't notice

It's possible to deduce a meaning for the word that is common to both these verses.

The verse can be translated as such

"....If you are ill, or traveling, or any of you has just had an excretion, or had intimate contact with women, and could not find water, then seek out some soft sand and wipe your faces and hands with it, for God is pardoner and forgiver.

Likewise, verse can be translated as such

" Oh you who believe, you shall give to charity from the good things that you earn and from what we have bestowed to you from the earth ; and do not seek out ( or pick out ) the bad therein to give away, when you yourselves would not accept it unless your eyes be closed ; for God is rich and praiseworthy".

Do you find this interpretation logical?
There is no such thing as "Tayammom" being equal to "ablution". It is linguistically wrong.

Still not convinced?
Ok maybe this will clear it up for you

Below are two verses from the poem of a Jahiliyya poet. ( It may be Tarafa, but I'm not quite sure. I will try to find out who wrote it so I won't be accused of making it up ).

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The verses describe a young maiden amidst a scene of bloodshed and corpses after a battle between two rival clans. When she saw death all around her, and the sand under her feet was bloody, she sought the oasis that was in the territory of the Darej clan , and it was like a blessing or gift from God that cleansed her and quenched her thirst.

Does the word mean ablution here? I doubt it.

• Note the use of the word here ( it also appears in the Quran as ) in as some kind of gift from God ( spoils of war obtained without fighting or effort ).

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Your feedback is welcome.