Peace All,

Wakas we did discuss this before, the conclusion, I think, we came to was defining what adultery was. I'd have to check up on our past post.

Aren't you falling into that trap of demanding that Deen should conform to our personal likes and dislikes? If you believe in a Creator shouldn't you also believe that He has the right to set the laws and limitations for His creation, even without the consent of His every creature?

Who's demanding??? I'm giving my opinion of what I feel is right and wrong, through my observance of the world. If you feel that I'm falling into the trap of demanding that Deem should conform to my personal likes, then may I ask you why have you rejected Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shaoism, Shamanism, etc. Because they don't confirm to your likes and dislikes?

You do realize you need 4 witness to enfore any punishments right?

Tell me in which situations people have 4 witnesses.

That's a cheap excuse. Let's say it does happen, it may be a 1 in a 10000000000000000000000 chance, but there is still a chance of it happening.

Alternatively people see two people together who are quite sensual with each other, and the pair dissappear behind closed doors. The couple are accused, and the couple admit that they have had relations with each other, then what right do people have to punish this couple?

None, what-so-ever.

Selam
You are also incorrect, 99% of pupulation in T?rkiye are muslims, and when you look at sects that you can see 82% of them are sunni muslims, and %5.73 of them are Alevi-Shiite. When you estimate from these percentages, you can find a population of maximum 5 million Alevi-Shiite in T?rkiye not 20 million.

PEace,

yeah yeah yeah

Alevi's are shiite, not sunni. I wouldn't really classify them as shiite either. Alevi, religion and culture stems from shamanism.

Those 'official' stats released by the Turkish Government are a complete joke.

Many Alevi's don't reveal that they are alevi because of fear for the life. In the past and EVEN TO THIS DAY, Alevi's are freely murdered for the 'crime' of being Alevi.

Peace,

Can you please elaborate, with examples, on this faith-based punishment, quoting verses of quraan as evidence?

I only need one quote- There is no compulsion in deen.

This suggests to me that you cannot force anyone to follow Islam. People choose it on their will.

The only faith based judgement I refer to is if a muslim is to steal/be stolen from by a non-muslim, or a non-muslim killing or being killed by a muslim.

Al-Islam is a way of life while Secularism is another way of life.

I completely agree, but assure me 100% that the current Turkish Government will bring in pure Al-Islam.

Oh that's great!! someone expresses a contrary opinion and you wish them to leave and go to Saudi. The thing about democracy is that everyone has a right to their own beliefs, opinions, live with it, you're supposed to be a free country. Well maybe Turkey is evidently not. In my opinion if your Army does have a coup AGAIN, you're no worse than Saudi Arabia!! I have a right to my opinion, I know you won't be happy with what I've said!

It's very simple logic. The majority of people in my country want secularism, they don't want Sharia. Those that do, I'm showing them that they can migrate (as per the Quran) to Saudi Arabia where their Sharia is already implemeneted.

Your comparison between USA and T?rkiye is hilarious. Every counrty has its special conditions. 95% of population in T?rkiye is sunni muslim

95%?????????????????????

Incorrect. Turkey's population is around the 70 million mark. There are 20-30 million Alevi Turks, Alevi's are Shiite.

Turkey's laws, regarding some religous bans are probably out of date. The banning of such things as the headscarf, was implemented to move Turkey completey away from the caliphate (in the 1920s). Maybe freedom (for the headscarf) should be granted (from an outsiders perspective), but I don't want it, nor would I agree with it.

not because I'm against someone else's own opinion, but rather because the fundamentalists (in Turkey), who once they get their way, try to IMPOSE it onto others through VIOLENT AND PHYSICAL means.

As I said, for an outsider it's fine, but for someone who knows the ins and outs of the country then it's not fine.

Is wearing a hijab at university as an example such a great threat to your republic?

Oh most definitely!!!!!!!!!!!!!

See what I said above, you are an outsider and do not know the ins and outs of the country. These fundamentalists IMPOSE their beliefs onto others. they form their own 'ghetto's' and are violent to women who are not covered, violent to people who choose to drink alcohol.

Understanding has been shown by the Turkish republic many times to these people, but yet these people have always showed violence to other people.

Peace be upon you too.

Why would god send down the laws in Quran if He wouldn't mind us following the secular law? The punishments described in the Quran for crimes, the laws concerning the testimony, inhertience, etc are there to be followed. You can make Islam a personal religion like christianity or hinduism. Islam is a way of life on both individual and collective planes. You are misguided if you think that the western law and way of life is superior to the islamic law and way of life. Islamic laws are far superior to today's western laws.

What happened in Turkey was a mockery of democracy and people of Turkey. The evil military generals will pay for their anti-islamic policies. People of Turkey have waken up and nothing can put theam back to sleep. The brave sons and daughters of Mehmed II will conquer Constantinople for a second time this time politically. That day is not far.

Just another note, Saudi Arabia is open for you. Since Turkey's military is so evil, your welcome to leave my country and go to Saudi Arabia.

What in God's name are you people talking about, when talking about Turkey??????

Secularism is an essential part of Islam. There is no compulsion in deen.

You can punish a muslim with the laws of the Quran, but you cannot punish a non-muslim with those laws(except for certain cases, i.e. theft, treason).

The current government in Turkey is very much a radical 'Islamic' party. Yes their main interest is money and power, but take a look at Iran, Saudi Arabia, it's no different amongst those extremist sheep.

The current government has indirectly hinted that Turkey will become a strict Islamic nation (under their rule), such as Saudi Arabia, Iran.

If you truly knew about Turkish history, you would see that Mustafa Kemal Ataturk is a TRUE muslim, and that he gave the power to the military to protect the concepts of Islam.

The military and the secularists in Turkey are anything but evil. Those who wish to IMPOSE their beliefs onto others are the ones that are truly evil, those who follow the hadiths and sunnah rather than the Quran have not grasped Allah's right hand.

Are you a woman? If you are not then may I know how do you know?

Peace Jankren,

Then as I said before people should cover up from head to toe.

As far as the animal species is concerned, our closest 'relatives', the ape family, their females do not have the same busty appearance that our females do. Instead you'll find that female apes have busty bums, this is an attraction tool for male apes, as that is the position in which apes reproduce.

Whereas it has been many a time stipulated that the very reason that female humans are busty on the chest is as an attraction tool, because we humans do it from the front.

Keep in mind that female apes feed their young with their breasts, so reasoning that the breast is busty because of feeding is false (as female apes do not have busty breasts).

Peace All,

Since a man's chest is sexual, can we please also cover up female's hair, legs, arms, face, etc, etc, etc.

I'm saying this in the nicest possible way, but can we have some common sense here. Every single human being on the face of the planet, has a fetish. some women love muscular arms on a man, some men love long legs on a woman, and there are countless other examples. Are we (men and women) to walk around covered from top to bottom?

There are quite clearly certain parts of the body which are in direct relation to sex. A man's chest is not one of them.

I thought u do not believe in Al Quran ???. Anyway I agree with your logic though.

I'm still questioning brother.

I forsake the day that I believe blindly.

I also have a question

During an operation, does one need to have a clear mind?

Peace,

What does that have to do with it????

Clearly one schooner of beer, glass of wine will not cloud your mind. So doesn't that fall into the same category?

If indeed intoxicants are haram/banned, then they should not be used in ANY case, no matter what the circumstances (unless stated otherwise by the Quran).

Peace Wakas,

I cannot reply to your post as of yet, as I'm still contemplating. I haven't neglected you bro.

Peace All,

I just have a few questions for those who consider alcohol to be haram.

Have you ever had an operation?

When you had this operation, were you given anasthetic?

That is all, thank you.

Peace All,

It surprises me that you see no benefit, rationale etc for the rulings. Whilst I cannot say with certainty that these are the best rules (simply because I have not studied these aspects thoroughly nor have they been put into practice in a Quranic manner), I can still see some point to them.

Peace Wakas, the only rationale I see is determent by fear of punishment. While I can see this punishment (for any sin) as legit in a final judgement by God, I can't see the legitamacy of this punishment by humans against other humans. Other laws in the Quran have legitamacy and rationale behind them.

A thief, pays back his dues. Through this he/she learns hard work, and value of effects stolen. Through this the community learns that they may have an injust system (if he steals food for the simple of reason of feeding himself/herself).

A murderer is either killed, pays blood money or forgiven. Each punishment has a rationale behind it.

But what does the 100 lashes acheive?? It's a warning to others that if they fornicate they will receive 100 lashes.

Each punishment works on a cause-effect basis, whereas with the other punishments there is a linking between the cause and effect, but with the 100 lashes how on earth is the cause related to the effect? It simply isn't.

If indeed fornication is a morality issue, then surely the punishment should continue this premise, and serve to teach the individual and the community the positives and rehab of morality. I being a simple human, have the intellect capabilities to see the injustice of this punishment (for fornication), God in his infinite intelligence would see the problem before he even thought of it.

If a couple is genuinely committed to each other then there is no reason to hide it. Hiding it, leaves both open to possible problems, some of whichinclude

1. pregnancy (which the father could deny after since no-one knew of the couple)
2. STDs (as sex out with marriage would result in an increase)
3. accusations of rape
4. reduction (to a certain degree) of morality for the society

Problems arise in definining committed and couple. One-night stands are a commitment by two people. Two people who agree on an outcome. In a one-night stand case certainly pregnancy and accusations of rape may be a problem. But in this day and age pregnancy issues can be simply resolved through a DNA test. To a degree rape can also be resolved through evidence. So the only real issue I see here are false accusations of rape.

But this whole concept of a reduction of morality (as far as sex is involved) is logically false in my opinion. I can't exactly remember which species it was, but there are other animals who commit this act for the pure pleasure of it. We humans are also known to have sex for the pleasure of it. The reason we perceive that this act is immoral is because we are brought up with this topic as taboo. What is wrong with it??

It is a stress relief
It is a form of exercise
It allows the reproduction of the species
It is at every humans core natural instinct to reproduce

In todays current belief that sex with too many partners is wrong, where do the morality issues lie?

It provides jealousy (an issue of ego)
Well I can't really think of anything else that is negative with sex.

Can you apply the same thought process to the 100 lashes rule? At the end of the day, the 100 lashes rule as per Quran is untested (to my knowledge) so none of us can say if it works or not. It remains an unknown. You cannot dismiss something on an unknown.

But surely we can be theoretical about it. Many things we discuss here at this forum is theoretical. We only have the Quran and our god given reasoning to debate the many topics that this messageboard has been witness to.

A lot of people here, had issues with a thief having his hand chopped off, so the people here looked further, researched further and came to the conclusion that the verse in question stated that thief should pay back their dues, instead of having their arm chopped off. Which one of us has tested and seen the results of a theif paying back their dues? But we can theoretically see the outcome of such a situation, we can theoretically hope for the best. So I fail to see how we can't critic the unknown. Our reasoning and logic is still intact. You say yourself "one who understands the rule", well seeing other forms of physical punishment, I feel farily safe and certain to say that physical punishment is only a deterant through the fear of physical punishment. It doesn't necessarily teach anything. All it teaches is that certain act will resultant in certain physical punishment. But surely we are beyond this? Surely we, humans, who see ourselves so higher than the animal kingdom, simply because of our advanced intellects, who base so much on morals and ethics can see the complete immorality of this punishment?

Anyone see the Robin Williams movie "What Dreams May Come"????

Me personally, this is what I believe Hell to be.

A self-inflicted punishment, knowing that you spent your years rejecting God, rejecting your provider, rejecting your protector.

And there really is no way out of this, the rejectors will lament on this mistake forever. For me this punishment is much more severe than burning.

Think about it, when you realise you've made a grave mistake you have a burning sensation inside, like drinking hot water.

Peace All,

Peace Wakas,

Are you implying you see no rationale, benefit, reasoning etc in these laws? Or just not enough to justify them in your mind?

I see no rationale in those laws. Not just justifying in my mind, but just no rationale what-so-ever in the 100 lashes. Say some individual is punished with 100 lashes, then what next?? Either that person is not going to commit again, for fear of the lashes, or that person is going to be more careful when committing that same act.

Where is the moral justification behind the 100 lashes?? How does it teach the individual that it is wrong? What reason are the 100 lashes providing to say to the individual, this is why it's wrong??

I disagree with the latter statement here and I dont think it can be evidenced from 'the reading'.

Yep I think you're right, I'll have to check up on that.

I think bro Damon was referring to the transmission via sex aspect of AIDS.

Yeh I'm aware of that. But genetic diseases are also transferred via sex TO offspring.

Are you sure "rape" falls under this category?

Well where do rape laws fall?? It isn't covered in the Quran. This is probably the closest ruling there is to it.

Always a good sign. Tell me, does 1+1 always equal 2 or does it only equal 2 because one wants it to?

For me 1+1 ALWAYS equals 2. And this is what God is to me, no I'm not saying mathematics is my god. There is rationale, logic, and an unchanging premise behind it. 1+1 can never be anything but 2. The universe is built upon these simple laws, these simple laws give us a small glimpse at God.

Peace Elke,

So are you saying that you believe that the Quran isn't the word of God, but rather the inspiration of God?

Peace Magi,

Why do i have this oppinion? Because there are no wedding ritual to be found anywhere in the Quran. What we know as marriage, and what was intended as marriage must be as far apart as oil and water. Someone with crawing for power and money, turned both the whole principle and the idea itself into a freakshow.

God suffice as a witness.

My point exactly.

So in the eyes of the system, a marriage is merely a mutually accepted exchange of services between 2 people, and the system want say on the product thereof like in any other business. Its just business.

That's right. I personally believe that marriage was set up so that warring tribes could declare peace, or so that tribes could unite and be perceived as larger so that there safety was more guaranteed.

But two people who fall in love, can easily fall out of love. Which is why the Quran allows divorce. The problem, and maybe this is due to my mindset, is that I see such things as the 100 lashes, for fornication, still applying to this wrong concept that a female must be a virgin. If such mindset, to protect honour and family name (and god knows what else), is so important then there is no way the Quran would allow divorce.

Peace Alen,

Why should people be, for example, punished so harshly for sexual intercourse between 2 people, who mutually agree on sex outside marriage? Maybe because the human brain will suffer later, after the sex is over .... i know that if i commited fornication now, i know that my body might be satisfied but my soul would be one living Hiroshima.

See I have to disagree with you here. I'd say the reason your mind would feel like hiroshima is because society has brought you up to feel that way. Some examples-

*Hollywood movies convincing us to find romance, our one true love
*The institute of marriage being all around the world, everyone is expected to get married
*(If you live in a western country) Christianity being the major moral and ethic code, looking downcastly on sex outside of marriage

• Being brought up to only be with your married partner
  *A guy who sleeps around being called a stud (positive term), while a girl who sleeps around being given a negative term. This once again comes back to macho, insecurities of making sure you have a virgin for a wife.

Peace Brothers and Sisters,

Thanks for your kind words and support.

The Quran does indeed have some amazing insights, but as phoenix pointed out-

I think it's important for us to look at the quran (no matter how highly we regard it) with as much skepticism as possible. We can't take it's word for it.
The important thing is to follow the truth, not the quran. So as long as we follow what is true and just, it doesn't matter what the quran does say or doesn't say.

Let me explain, in the Quran we all know of the verse saying that God himself, protects the message, that the message is plain for all to see. Well with all humility, I'd like to say that I don't necessarily need the Quran to see God's system. God's system is all around us, God's system is a progressive path. By progressive path I mean that humankind will EVENTUALLY reach that moral and ethical point.

Like say for example, you see the 'muslim' protests and the bearded men holding banners saying that "Islam will dominate the world", well this is true, but it is clearly not in ANY man/woman's hands. This is the moral state that we (humans) will finally reach. This path, I believe, is ordained by God.

Returning to seeing God's system with our eyes, we learn that if we wipe out a species it has an effect on our ecosystem, that we could in fact be wiping out our food source. We learn that hatred towards each other leads us down a narrow path of violence. etc, etc, etc. Atheists tend to argue that morals and ethics would have EVOLVED without religion anyways, and this is true. This is god's system for humankind. To reach perfection we must go through trial and error.

That is why it is completely justifiable to me that the Quran can indeed be corrupted. Because the message itself is ALWAYS protected. The message is always there in our daily lives.

Peace Jankren,

The AIDS epidimic can be controlled. There are many contraceptives around the world. Abstenence is indeed one path, but that can clearly have an effect on the mental status of humans. The AIDS epidemec is widespread throughout Africa, and I'd hardly believe that they are a western society. But this spreading of AIDS, in Africa, is the resultant of ignorance and lack of education. It is an epidemic that is rampant amongst the poor of Africa, whereas in any western society, clearly it is not rampant.

As for the punishment, brother I have to see a reason behind it. What does 100 lashes teach the individual?? What does confining them until death takes them teach the individual?? What is the purpose behind it. How does 100 lashes equate to fornication?? These are the questions that I cannot answer, in regards to this topic.

Peace Damon,

Thanks Bro.

I'm aware that zeena is not just fornication. For adultery maybe there should be somekind of punishment, but 100 lashes?? But for the moment let's just concentrate on fornication.

One last thing I'd like to add; There are people all over the world who absolutely Refuse to believe in the quran because it doesn't agree with their sensibilities and goes against their vested interests. We should all ask ourselves if we know best or if GOD knows best. Do we disagree with or question the quran based on empirical findings or do we disagree and question because of our lack of discipline (and understanding) to do what it instructs?

Please forgive me for saying this, but questioning the authenticity of the quran based on your sensibilities towards 242 is not rational. One would need to bring forth something which actually proves that it has been tainted/tampered with and that we do not possess what it originally was. Until then, our questioning and disagreeing will be subjective and more than likely emotionally based.

Most definitely my current mindset is that I do not see anything wrong with sex between two consenting adults. That is why I question the Quran's reason behind punishing this act. But where I disagree with you is that we have a different set of morals/ethics (everyone does). And in my mind, just as in yours, to me it appears objective. As I said in my earlier post, I consider myself rational and logical, for me 1+1 has to equal 2, I can see the purpose behind it, I can see the justification of it. And this is why, this particular punishment strikes me as very odd. The Quran is filled with rationality and logic, but this 100 lashes punishment, what is the purpose? Where is the rationality? Where is the logic?

But, at this point, I am of the thinking that it applies to two people who meet each other at a club or bar, get a little tipsy and decide that they wish to have a one night stand. No commitment, no protection, no vowels before GOD, no intentions to marry and start a family morally.

And I don't see the problem here. They've made an agreement. It's just a plain physical action. We're programmed to search for this, to partake in it, to accomplish it. Yes it's true that we're programmed to do it for the continuation of the species, but none-the-less it doesn't really mean that you will impregnate somone. Some people are born with ovarian deficiencies, some people are born with testicular difficiencies, so why do they do it?? There's no purpose in those people, who can't reproduce, having sex. But yet their minds are wired that way, their instinct tells them to do it. I see sex as a completely natural part of life. I don't have a problem with it.

Of course I see problems with abusing it, but that comes back to the Quran warning us of intoxication. Anything in excess is bad for you. Anything too little is also bad for you.

Things like this happen in the U.S. all the time, which is why they have come up with DNA tests and Child Support. We wouldn't need these things, as well as protection and the fear of A.I.D.S. if we all conducted ourselves morally where male-female relations are concerned.

But then brother if we wouldn't need child support, why is divorce allowed in Islam?? AIDS is a disease, just like many other genetical diseases it can be passed down to offspring. Other genetical diseases are just as deadly as AIDS, e.g. Cancer, Heart Disease, etc...

Peace Zenje

And isn't there the issue of 4 witnesses, for the 'lashes' to even happen? I mean unless these 2 people were into some weird (public place) stuff or somehow ended up on Youtube... I don't see this happening.

See another one of my issues is the 4 people witnessing it. Recently in Pakistan the rape laws were amended so that rapists could be convicted easier. This 4 witnesses business, it doesn't do any justification for the victims.

But anyways back to fornication. Yeah there's the four witnesses stuff. I don't know man, it just makes it very easy to get away with. But my main point being, what's the reason behind the lashes.

It's just one issue I have at the moment. I'm patient, and as mentioned before I spend a lot of time reflecting on stuff, just general stuff. Maybe one day I'll find an answer but at the moment I haven't really got one, I've only got a sorta answer.

Thanks all.

Peace,

Brother Nabi used a great example of intoxication (in a past thread).

Take the sport of football (soccer for the americans). In some countries, the SPORT is treated like a religion. There have been many fights, unruly mobs, riots, stabbings, shootings, killings, etc, etc, etc becuase of the intoxication of passion for a sporting team.

As well as the System, if you intoxicate yourself with the System it is not good for you, it is harmful for you. Take a look at the orthodox sects of different religions (around the world), they go into complete intoxication\abuse of their religious systems. And this leads to a clouded, dark path. A path that has no rationality or logic to it.

Peace

Peace,

If a woman is being a tease, I don't see how that is so awfully different from men doing their own stuff in their own way, which has already been accepted?

Such as? I.e. give me examples of men doing what women do.

Um...so, is this like really common? I mean I have never seen this happen in all the years I was staying in a '1st world country'. All the women I've seen on the T (in Boston), thank the man quite sincerely for doing so, inclusive of myself. This seems to be a one off case with a disturbed woman. Infact, I've even seen younger women get up to give up their seat for older people (men AND women) or people with kids, inclusive of myself. It's just good manners and not having to do with gender as such.

It's common here in Australia. There's this underlying tone that men can't control themselves. )

You know Disclosure came out quite a few years back. I don't think the situation is as bad as that. You do need evidence and this way of looking at things has changed to some degree.

True, but still the courts are more likely to favour the woman's version.

I would like to add my thoughts to this. Men and women are equally good at manipulation, take court intrigues in any given country and time period or politics. You think the men aren't manipulative? I think what Elke meant was that depending on circumstances, a woman can't openly ask for certain things or even show displeasure in a male dominated society. This holds true in a place like Pakistan as well, where all my life I've heard the older women complain about their husbands getting their way and them not able to talk back as they have a certain 'role' to play. Thus, they turn to indirect methods of achieving what they want as the direct method is most of the times doomed to failure and censure. This is not to say that they can't be direct. One chooses their strategy depending on circumstance and situation is all. Men AND women.

Did you ever see me refer to nations like Pakistan??? I'm speaking of western 1st world nations. Where apparently, the people are a lot more civilized and have thought things through.

And on another note, Men hardly manipulate, they are too stupid for that. Well not stupid but it's not our way. We are much more direct and to the point, and if circumstances permit, we exert our physical dominance.

Ego should be vital to no man. Read no man as everyone, as that is a proverbial way of saying the same. The more people cling to their ego's, the more chances of problems exponentially.

Confidence makes a woman attractive to men as well. Read some studies on what men find attractive in a woman done in 1st world countries. Ego is not vital. Confidence and belief in oneself is gender neutral. As are many traits thought to be exclusive to a gender. I don't agree with mainstream feminism, I think most are a bunch of whacked bitter women. I would ask again though...what defines a 'man' and what is that 'criteria'? The testosterone levels can vary, does that mean a physical man with less testosterone than another man would be a lesser man? Maybe all men should start taking testosterone to be more manly than the next ;D

I completely disagree with your notion that ego is not vital to men.

Taken from dictionary.com-

3. egotism; conceit; self-importance
4. self-esteem or self-image; feelings
   n 1 an inflated feeling of pride in your superiority to others

Yes too much pride is a vice, however, it is still needed. Ego is directly linked with confidence in one's self.

At the moment a man is nothing but a money gaining tool. We work to provide, now I certainly don't disagree with that, but there is quite more to us than only that.

As far as your studies of what men find attractive in a women, I don't need to read it, I am a man remember?

Now for your request of what a man is-

A man is a hunter, a protector, a conqueror, an explorer, a leader, a family leader, etc, etc, etc

Many eons ago man used to physically fight for the attention of females, to prove to females that we are the strongest of our species and that we have the best genes to past down. Now this trait hasn't been erased from our DNA, it has transformed.

Some men still do physically fight, while others verbally spar. This is what a man is. Take away our boxing, because it's too violent, and where do you stop???? Take away our other contact sports, and we are basically saying it's bad to be a man.

When a young male child falls and starts crying, the mother tends to him, while the father tells him to shut up and get up. As stated before, men, in this generation in western nations, are no longer brought up by their fathers, hence they don't learn the ability to be independent, and pick themselves up, from a very young age. It's a stutter in our emotional growth.

This is what men are, but today's feminist movement is putting a stop to what we are. We're too violent and supposedly should be more in touch with our softer side, we supposedly should show emotion, we supposedly should be less violent, we supposedly should be less sexually discriminating (to a degree I agree), etc, etc.

What we are is being taken away from us, we cannot help what we are. We perve at girls, we fight with each other (to establish dominance), we take responsibility for our families (and as stated just before, we establish our dominance over, all around us, yes including our wives).

You ask about testosterone, do you know what testosterone does to a body??? It makes us more violent, it makes us seek domination, it provides our mentality with well-being, it increases our libido. And this testosterone is provided naturally by our bodies. So in a way yes, a man producing less testosterone can be considered less of a man.

I repeat what I said earlier, I have no problems with the feminist movement, so long as they don't step on the toes of WHAT men are. We certainly cannot help what our body controls us to do.

? Why the asterisk? Sex isn't a swear...its an a verb, an "activity", something we do.

Im curious why you asterisked it.

I thought this forum might filter out the word sex, apparently it doesn't

Peace all,

I think I'm being misunderstood here. I have no issues with justifiable women's rights and indeed I have no issues with justifiable men's rights.

My pain is, that at the moment, the feminist movement is stepping on the toes of WHO/WHAT men are.

We are being asked, NOT to be men. Actually we're being ordered not to be men. And this in no way sits right with me.

No but joking aside, i reiter my standpoint. Grow up and work on it.

I don't deny the possibility of women playing games, i see it around me, but i also believe that they do it du to conditionning, being for centuries in the weaker position they often resort to indirect approaches in order to resolve problems, conturn obstacles instead of facing them and being more into manipulating than the other sex, used to simply impose things as of male authority...but these are commonplaces as well. Not evry woman / man is like that.

Elke, I have seen women dangle a piece of meat in front of men, and then drag it away and call out 's*xual harrassment'.

I have seen men get up and offer their seat (on a train or bus) and then have a nasty comment or a death stare directed towards those same men, by the woman who was offered the seat.

I have seen men say to a woman, how beautiful she looks that day, and the woman cries s*xual harrassment.

And guess what the ruling in the western world is, the man is at fault!!!!!

We're damned if we do, we're damned if we don't.

You said it yourself, that women manipulate because they are the phsyically weaker s*x. What are we to do?? Learn how to manipulate the way certain women do?? But what if we don't feel morally content (should we attempt to manipulate)??

You are joking right? That's the funniest statement I have ever heard in my life!

See this Elke?? This is the kind of stereotype abused men have to get past. A man can't be abused by a woman, never, it's not possible. But it clearly does happen, and in the western world it is more prevalent than a man abusing a woman. Men have no one to turn to, if revealed it is a massive blow to our ego, and a loss of face (Please remember that I said a man's ego is vital to him).

You talk about the ego, that's one of the biggest problems that are the problem with men.

See another example of a lack of will to be understanding. It's a 'problem' with men. Every man has an ego, some are lacking in confidence, some are medium confidence, some are glowing in confidence. Remember ladies, it's confidence that makes a man attractive. It is our ego which is vital to many aspects of our life. It is confidence which enables us to work out and raise our testosterone levels. It is confidence that aids us in getting a promotion and successfully competing with the rest of the workforce. It is confidence that makes us more attractive to females. It is confidence that makes us socially pleasing creatures. Do you get the drift?? And no don't tell me confidence is one thing and ego is another. They are directly related.

I'm not asking for a complete halt in the feminist movement. I'm asking that feminism consider the impact it may have on men. I'm asking that there be a better understanding of who and what men are. I'm asking that men are not left behind and treated like second class citizens.

Peace Elke,

Peace esimsek

may be you talk about america ? Things about alimony aso have changed in Europe. Nowadays things are much more balanced, and if the woman is the bigger bread earner it's sometimes her that has to pay...

anyway, alimony is a normal thing if one partner stopped working to take care of kids aso...whatever that partner is.

in my personal case i left my ex with no alimony at all and i didn't ask for any. but we're in such good terms that i know that he would help me in case of financial difficulty

That's great that you're on a friend/friend basis with your ex, but I was using the not so friendly examples. For the divorce cases, it's not so much America I have to go on, but here in australia.

Was listening to a radio programme a while ago, and they had fathers who'd lost custody of their kids. These grown men were crying on live radio because they couldn't see their kids. And frankly this is all too common in first world nations.

no what about being emotionnally abused ? don't you think that happens to women as well ? what about our ego ?

http//cyberparent.com/abuse/maleabuse.htm

http//www.sheridanhill.com/batteredmen.html

And there are plenty of more pages which suggest that in 1st world western nations, men are more abused by women than vice versa. In all this feministic movement, a man's right has completely been stomped on, men are 'apparently' always the pigs.

and about being sex object to men, yes we are, but sorry, men are also sex objects to women...do you object ? (i have some guy in mind wow, but... i'm fasting and should control my thoughts )

I agree that we are sxual objects for women, but I don't believe I've ever heard a man complain about being a sxual object. Whereas women, sorry but it really gets to me that cetain women are aggravated that we see them as s*xual objects. If anything, it isn't a reflection on females, but more a reflection of the male psyche. Who am I to argue with what I've been programmed (natural instict) to do???????

i say that in many cases feminism has brought a much harder life to women many women i know (don't forget, i live in morocco), work outside their home and have to manage the home, the kids aso as well, double and triple work but hubby just comes home after work and expects to be served...before at least women used to have only two jobs - home and kids (don't get me wrong, i personnally don't want to go back there, but its a personal choice...)

Well do you suggest that men grow a uterus, and large breasts?????? Now you may think I'm sounding ridiculous, but what other option is there??? We were bred to be hunters, not carers. It's only been in the past 20-40 yrs were there was an expectation for men to help around the house and with the kids. We've been evolving for thousands of yrs and now all of a sudden, men are expected to change???? I hardly think that's fair. We must be given understanding and TIME. but no we are labelled as lazy, no gooders.

What i want to convey is that each situation is different, each time it's the usual stupid game between men and women, to one's, the other or both detriment. we should all grow up and see the real issues and not throw stones on the opposite side...we all live in glasshouses

elke

Elke in a relationship, or picking up situation, it's never the guy who plays the games, we chase, that's all we do (in that game). We've, most likely, only got one thought on our mind. Whereas on the other side of the table, there is a certain s*x who get's men to jump through numerous hoops, before he's accepted.

Peace Elke,

Feminism started off as a great movement, a movement that had justice and cause behind it, but in today's world it's a great big joke.

You argue that in certain 2nd, 3rd world nations women suffer under the iron rule of men. I accept, nor do I condone what those 'men' do.

But however, do you ever consider, in 1st world nations, how men suffer under the iron rule of women?????

We are not physically abused, but emotionally abused. We are not good enough, from the get go we have to work, work and work, with the (false) belief that the richer we are the easier it will be to find a partner. We have no say in our professional lives (another false belief). Men are expected to work like a dog and support the woman. Should a divorce eventuate, it's the woman who takes the majority of finances and assets, it's the woman (generally) who gets a say in how often the ex-husband get's to see their kids, etc, etc, etc. And yes believe you me, there are some vindictive b***hes out there.

I can go on and on and on about the abuse of men.

Men are likened to being big boys, why because in our society, we concentrate on the development of women (during puberscent years), while boys are 'expected' to grow up, without viable role models, nor with the knowledge of what it is to be a man. A girl can rely on her Cleo, etc magazine, what does a boy have to rely on??? A father who works, god knows how many hours, and is too tired and stressed to spend time with the family (I am speaking generally here).

Let there be a billboard with a half naked woman on it, feminists go up in arms!!!!!!!!! We are not sx symbols they say, newsflash, attraction plays a MAJOR part in human reproduction, (I'm being very, very honest here), yes women are sxual objects to men and there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! Men have NEVER said that women are ONLY sx objects, but we do state that they are Sxual objects (until that became s*xual discrimination).

Let there be a billboard ordering men to work 20hrs 7 days a week, you know what todays man would do?????? He'd accept it and trudge along.

In today's society our lives are not what they are cracked up to be, because no one has taken the time to differentiate between a woman and man. It has been assumed that we are the same creatures, when CLEARLY this has never been the case. So much advancement has been made towards the understanding of the female psyche, but what about the man???? Has it ever occured to feminists, that they are stepping on the toes of the male psyche????

How many times on this board have I said that a man's ego is very vital to him, it's very vital to the survival of the fittest concept??? But women refuse to understand this. Once this has been taken away, we are no longer men with a purpose, we are lost little boys.