What's the use of the theory? How is that going to influence my daily life and contribute to my salvation? Whether god created us directly or through visitors from another galaxy, it's the same to me. The fact is that I am created by God and now am here for less than 100 years to save myself from hellfire.

Peace

A seal may be broken and the seals on the hearts may as well, to one who takes to the goodly disposition.

Joe

A seal that god puts cannot be broken. If god says that Mohammad SAW is the seal of prophets and you are saying that the seal can be broken, then what was the purpose of that verse? In other words, what that verse is trying to say. Is it sayin Mohammad is the last messenger until I send another one? Is there an end to your twisting Quran?

Peace Hajirfm,

This is such a central issue because setting up partners with the god in any shape or form is a central issue in the great reading and in our entire existence. It is the only unforgivable sin. This is how central it is. You want people to forget about this issue and not worry and be happy idolizing a stone!!!!???

So according to your fallacious thinking, it is also OK to kiss and revere the cross because like everything it is also "from the god and will return to him".

No. Not everything is from the god. Falsehood is not from the god. The material of the black stones and the crosses is from the god but the false idea about revering such inert objects is not from the god. It is from people like you. The god destroys your falsehood with truth/reality.

Peace,

Ayman

I think you are over reacting. I don't think muslims wake up everyday thinking about the blackstone. "Oh what a nice day. I wonder how is the blackstone doing. How am I going to please the blackstone? I should get and pray 2 rak'ah for the blackstone. I hope the blackstone is happy with me. I can't wait to go to hajj and please the blackstone and kiss it."

It's not like that. It's just a stone. Get over it. Are you going to wage a jihad against microphones in mosques too? Well they are there in every mosque and it looks like people are praying to it. Why have muslims erected idols like microphones in their mosques? If you start focusing on this you may actually start convincing yourself that people are worshipping the microphone. This is a disease my friend that you have. Do you actually think about the blackstone when you meet muslims? If yes, then you are obsessed with this blackstone and it's ruining your life. So it is you who is thinking about blackstone constantly and can't get it off your mind. We on the other hand don't even remember it except once in our lifetimes if we are lucky to go to hajj and if we get a chance we may kiss the stone. It's a non-issue.

Hajirfm,

Let me ask you again

If 6.5 billion people on Earth exist

1.3 of these are Muslim, or claim to be

What about the 5.2 billion remaining? Are they mushrik?

Peace OPF. The other 5.2 billion are non-muslim. Among them are the people of the book, atheists, agnostics, etc. Not every non-muslim is a mushrik. When I mentioned 1.3 billion muslims, I didn't mean to say that their quantity proves anything. But it's absurd to believe that only a small group called aloners (what a name) are true muslims and everyone else is a mushrik. This is an extremist opinion. Islam is the middle way. Come back to Islam. We have a name that god has chosen for us i.e. 'muslim' not 'quran aloner'. Where did that name come from? Is there anything in the Quran that refers to such a term? Do we have a term called 'quranioon' in the Quran? No. We only read 'mu'minoon, muslimoon' those who pray, fast and give charity, etc. Satan is smart and is turning your intelligence against you. But you should act smarter than him and believe like the rest of us.

Why would god deny his guidance to so many generations of muslims and then lead only a very few people led by a man that we don't know and have never seen. He is not brave enough to make his call public. He hides behind websites and e-articles. Why isn't he out there calling people to the truth if he claims he has the truth in his posession? Why isn't he out there breaking the idols like Abraham and Mohammad did? This only proves that he is not sincere in his call to tawheed and he has other agendas unknown to us.

I've been married for over 18 years and I will tell you that a man who decides that he can hit a woman for one good reason, can easily and likely find another 'good reason' to hit her. This is a fact of faulty human behavior. Not an assumption. I don't believe that god would ask those of us in a close relationship to set up a situation where one is forcefully over another. Once the cat gets out of the bag, it's hard to put it back in, as they say. If people are not careful, the man (or dominant one) will become more and more dominant and abusive, while the other person will shrink back to avoid trouble. It's not a pretty situation.

I will keep the shirk in the picture. If you fear and obey someone other than God (in my context here, meaning the subservient person in the relationship) then that, indeed, by definition is SHIRK. Can you tell me how it is not????

God asks us to obey our parents. Does that make us mushrik? God asks us to obey the messenger and 'ulul amr' and does that make us mushrik? We obey the laws of the country we live in. Does that make us mushrik? NO! Shirk exists but it is not in obeying other people. Every soldier on a battlefield has to obey the commands of his commander. Every player has to obey the commands of his coach. These don't make you a mushrik. But if you obey a person that is inviting you to evil and you follow him then you have sinned. Even that is not shirk. Shirk is to associate partners to Allah or worship others besides Allah or give one of the attributions of Allah to someone other than him.

Have you tried, then beating her and found that it worked?
Lol, I am glad to hear that your wife could beat you, even when you are trying to be nice ;D

Where is this argument in the verse? (ad3u ela sabeeli rabbika bil7ikmati wal maw3ithatil 7asana) preach for the way of your God by wisdom and good advice. What's wrong with having an intimate relation with the spouse after a good advice? And why are you happy jumping in the wagon of desertation and beating, but not the good approach?

We take these three options as if they are only stages. They can be stages, but there is no reason why they are not seperate options. Desert her in bed could be just what she was already doing and earned her the title of "nashez". In this case deserting her is redundant.

We have had little arguments but we can sort it out by talking. This is how many issues are resolved between spouses.

Yes you do give advice. That's the first step. But what if your beautiful preaching doesns't work? Then you separate your beds. What if that didn't work? Have intercourse with her? Where is the logic in that? Maybe it works for some couples at some situations but generally that will be disasterous and smells more like marital rape to me.

Peace
Let us not stray here from the thread.
Pointers

1. Why are there other cubes that look like Kaaba?,

Maybe other people and other towns tried to copy the success story of Ka'bah. The pagans worshipped idols and kept them at Ka'bah and that brought a lot of business for the meccans. Maybe others wanted a share and they tried but as we know unsuccessfully.

2. Were they also dedicated to The God, then got corrupted by idol pagan worship?,

I just answered this one. Read^^^

3. Who built them and when? after or before Abraham time?

You sound like you know something about archaeology and carbon dating. Why can't you figure it out? If you prove that any of them predated Abrahams' time, then I consider taking you seriously.

4. Who carved the footprints of Abraham near KSA Kaaba (don't insult my intelligence by saying it is his real footprints)

I don't know. Do you think the wahhabis did it? What is your theory?

5. The black stones, who brought them? are black stones in other cubes same as the KSA Kaaba?

The black stone existed at the time of prophet and he respected and even kissed it. What is its origin? We are all from god and we all return to him. Why is that such a central issue for you man?

6. In the West we have witch worships, where evil worshipers will process fully naked around a tree, or a stone, invoking witches to help them with problems, this is also done as a ritual of rebirth at the end of December, I read a Hadith where it said the Arabs used to circumbulate around the Kaaba naked, the Mohammed asked them to put a white cloth instead... How about the other cubic structures, why were they not destroyed... Is it OK to worship the Sun, and Allat and Mannat and Al-Uzzah?, since they were left standing? or did some of the Arabs still felt keen of their Idols and scared to destroy them despite The Quranic revelations?

All of the idols in Ka'bah were destroyed by prophet himself. There was no manat or laat or uzza left. I don't kow what you are talking about. Other curbic structures were never important. Probably they had already lost any significance (if they had any) by that time and were in ruins. The muslims didn't destroy the egyptian artifacts either.

7. In this age of Science, why KSA Government will not allow archaeological and forensic studies to confirm what is written in hadiths?

What forensic studies you are going to perform? What do you think the possible outcome of such studies would be. If you are firm in your beliefs, then you wouldn't need forensic evidence. Do you believe in what you are saying on this forum or you are just conjecturing. So do you think that what the hadith says is false and on what authority you make such claims?

Salaam peace4life, all

I agree with your post, except what I am quoting of it. This meaning is neither supported by known arabic dictionaries nor by the usage of in the qur'aan of this word/derivatives.

There is another interesting, and more plausible meaning of "dharaba" which is cited in "lisanul3arab" to have intercourse with.

What a joke! Have intercourse with her when you are having an argument? I never tried that and I don't think I will because I will be beaten up real bad.

Salam,

hajirfm you said "If god wanted to say leave them, then He, being god, knew there was a better word for it 'utrokoohunna' or if he wanted to say 'divorce them' he would say 'telleqoohunna'." elektro

If God says utrokoohunna then many men would believe that they should leave (including leaving the financial responsibility, leaving the relationship). That's not what God wants because clearly God loves for couples to reconcile (especially if there are children).

He wouldn't say "talleqoohunna" because God doesn't like divorce (as seen in Quran) and gives people time apart and a chance to get back together.

So God provides a word which implies Temporality (temporarily leave). adhreb = strike (temporary break - stoppage in order to bargain or reach agreement)

Adhred alta3am (food) = strike against food (hunger strike)
Adhreb Al-shoghl = strike against work (go on strike)
Adhred Al-nisa / adrebhunna = strike against the woman (temporarily leave her) ----> hunna is just a pronoun = Them (femenine)

God always wants people to have a TIME (break) before divorce (whether to give time to see if the woman is pregnant or to cool off). He even says that if you hate your woman, you could be hating something in which God has placed a lot of good.

God says that men and women are equal, that they have affection and mercy between them and other words like that. He doesn't give men a right to oppress or hit women in any way. As a matter of fact we know from the Quran that God doesn't like oppression or the aggressors.

Secondly, Nashaz is when someone deviates. So a Nashooz is someone who swerves from the path by doing unrighteous or socially unacceptable acts. I.e. basically not following what the Quran says about morality or conduct. E.g. husband or wife gossiping, flirting and so on.

Traditionally men (males) corrupted Hadith and religious guidelines so they can gain power in the home and society.

You're free to disagree. But God is also the best Sociologist and Social Worker, and He knows what's best. Look at Quran as a whole & the reason for it = peace.

Salam peace

Salam. I disagree. God could be more specefic about leaving them temporarily. Women have to wait a certain period before getting married again anyways (as you said to make sure they are not pregnant and also to see if they change their minds). So what would be the wisdom behind that verse? It will read like "Admonish them and leave them in their sleeping places and leave them (temporarily)". It simply doesn't make sense to me. Leave them for how long? Can we leave them for one year? Two years? As long as it takes? What are the rules regarding this? Did prophet elaborate on this? Did any case like this happen during his time?

In fact some men do leave their wives and refuse to divorce them. They go about their business and get married again but the poor woman can't get married unless the husband divorces her and he refuses to do so. Is this what you are advocating? You can't leave your wife for an undetermined period of time even if it is temporary. You see the period before the second marriage is a certain number of months (If I remember it's about 4 months but correct me if this is not so). If you are suggesting that the verse is saying leave your wives (and go find another house to live in) then somehow we should know how long this leave should be. You can't just say as long as it takes. That's not fair to anybody.

Peace all,

And are we, as wives, meant to suffer at the (possible) tyranny of our husband, living in fear of doing that which he deems 'unacceptable' --if this matter is something that is going to be decided by his disgression? That fear that a woman carries in her heart of physical abuse from her husband (which easily stretches into other matters) smacks of shirk in my life's experience and understanding.

How do you explain that?

Well you better open your eyes before you marry anybody. This verse doesn't give permission to men to be abusive. It allows beating only in very stricted circumstances. Most women don't go that far. We are not talking about you. We are talking about a woman who is acting irresponsible toward her family.

And please keep the label of shirk out of the picture for now. Well what do I expect from this forum where some people here consider all muslims mushrik except their small group.

Peace "hajir",
Hajir the unbiased dictionaries tell a different story. Here "separating" seems to be the most favored meaning of "daraba" unlike popularity amongst Arabic speakers today. YOUVE BEEN FOOLED. DONT YOU GET IT. YOU SUNNIS/SHIAS HAVE BEEN FOOLED BY THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS. I CAN BET THEY WERE THE ONES WHO INTRODUCED THIS MEANING TO "DARABA" JUST LIKE THEY DID WITH THE WORD "SALLU" AND MANY OTHERS. Instead of understanding the Quran unbiasedly through the natural world you guys use christian and jeiwsh dogma. Man this just makes me mad. Who is the weak minded now, pal? GOD Bless!

Peace Jonny, we are not talking about what 'seems' to make more sense to you or me. We are talking about what god actually meant by the word 'adhraboohunna'. If god wanted to say leave them, then He, being god, knew there was a better word for it 'utrokoohunna' or if he wanted to say 'divorce them' he would say 'telleqoohunna'. Are you saying God couldn't choose the right word to communicate what He had in mind? If there is any conspiracy at work it is the enemies of Islam trying to pollute the arabic language, the language of Quran. But guess what, the same god who has protected his message for 1400 years is not going to let a bunch of losers pollute the language of Quran. They better find another way to mess with us.

Greetings,

Well, certainly the "muslims" will be very infuriated because their "Allah"'s house was destroyed and to their astonishment their "Allah" could not do anything to protect it from being destroyed. There will be no house for their "Allah" to live in, at least temporarily. They will soon rebuild it and start worshiping their "Allah" again.

Anwar Azim

Allah does not live anywhere. But god has referred to ka'bah as 'baytee' (my house) in the Quran. How do you make sense of that Mr. Smart?

Peace all,

Some people love to go see their beloved black cuboid idol and the black stone representing Allat and Dushara and uphold the pagan rituals by mindlessly spinning seven times around them and kissing them, exactly like the pagan Arabs did, thus celebrating the birth of their sun-god. Where is this sanctioned by The God in al-qur'aan ? If that is not setting up partners with The God then what is ? Then they claim they are "muslims". If that is not hypocrisy then what is ?

How dare you calling 1.5 billion muslims idol worshippers? Who are you and on what authority you make such a big claim? You are a hypocrite by calling 1.5 billion muslims hypocrites. You are a nobody whose voice is not heard and you resort to this lonely corner on the so called free-minds to be with people worse than yourself. Your faith is weak and your roots are loose. You have not understood Tawheed or Quran. You speak of Quran but you disrespect the people who followed it the most i.e. the noble companions. Your heart is filled with anger and hatred towards the muslimoon. Your life is in vein and your deeds are ruined. You worship yourself and your corrupted theories. One drop of faith has not entered your rotten heart.

What if he finds her "suckling" him to make him a mahram? Does he has the right to discipline her confused ?

Back to your message

"But if this person you dislike -or like- stepped with your wife in bed, you do not have the right to discipline her. Take the matter to the authorities".

Do you accept this additional quote, hajirfm? Does it ring any "qur'aanic" bell?

If the husband has only two options when he finds his wife in bed with another person
1- Do nothing
2- Take the matter to the authorities who will divorce you.

How could he be given the right to discipline (aka smite/strike) her for FEAR OF DOING SOMETHING (That's she hasn't done it yet)?

No knowledge of Arabic is needed here...Just simple logic

The 3-step solution is there to protect the family from falling apart. If you find your wife in bed with somebody else then you can testify in court and they will be punished accordingly. The only way she can save herself from punishment is when she swears by god that she is innocent. Then the court will set her free but god will punish her to eternity (if she is a liar). I don't think there is anything confusing here. If you fear that your wife is being dishonest in her relationship with you then you follow the three steps. Most of the time it's just a misunderstanding and it is resolved by talking. Sometimes the wife needs some time to think for herself alone in bed and the case is resolved. Sometimes there is a need for a shock-therapy by beating her lightly and she comes to her senses and returns to her family and the case is resolved. If these steps don't work then they assign referees from both families and make agreements of how to conduct affairs after that. Finally if there is absolutely now way to save the marriage, then they get divorced. Which part of it is so unbelievable that the weak-hearted have to make up another meaning for 'dha-ra-ba'?

hajirfm,

is that your real name ?

Do they need to "pray five times a day" as they need to "disciplin" their wifes? >D

How is a man disciplined ? According to the rules of moral contained in quran, my ex-husband should have been disciplined by me yes. I even used to abandon him in bed before i abandoned him completely. But may be you're right, had i beaten him up i might have saved our marriage...

Where is your logic brickwall

lk

You wouldn't have liked to live with a man that you have beaten. No woman would. If he was such a loser that needed to be disciplined by his wife, then you are better of divorcing him. I hope no children were involved though.

Muslims beat the hell out of an old Hindu women, kidnapped, tortured and then murdered her daughters, father missing (perhaps tortured and killed) and their entire house aflamed. This happened simply because one of Muslim's son was having an affair with one of the Hindu daughters. It's also worth noting that Anaheim Hills in California is considered one of the many posh, clean and safe cities comprising of many Asian and Middle Eastern families resident amidst others. It is very close to where I live and first time heard of such attrocities by Muslims in that city. It has shocked the Muslim communities, angered the Hindus and raised concerns among others with this nerve-wrecking, pathetic and cowardly incident. I just heard the updated story on TV, part of which is mentioned in this link w/news video

http//cbs2.com/local/local_story_143090429.html

there is nothing in the link your provided talking about muslims.

Since we don't have a video section (yet), have a look at this
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgnncfYRPxk

The 2 laws in Malaysia (Shariah & Civil) is so confusing!! One contradicting the other! Any comments?

There is no compulsion in religion. If she wants to be a hindu and believe in elephant-shaped gods, nobody should stop her. I support the Shariah for muslims but we can't impose it on non-muslims. We should allow the civil laws govern the affairs of non-muslims. The difficult task is to resolve the cases where these two interfere each other.

hajirfm,

Greetings......please be careful about accusing people of following conjectures and not being able to accept something that is 'so clear'. Think about the evolution of language over time. For instance, if I say the word 'mouse' to you today. I'm sure you'd consider it a very ordinary and popular word and depending on the context, you'd be sure that what I stated was clear in its meaning. However, if we were discussing this word with 7th century English speakers, what 'mouse' 'clearly means' would open an entirely other can of worms that is surely not so very clear.

Do you get my drift?

This is the point that we are operating from--as I understand it.

Do you get the point??????

that's why we need the ahadith and the opinion of scholars to elaborate on these matters. But some closed-minded people don't want to even consider studying what those scholars have to say. They think they are too good to follow anybody's opinon and that's how they have come up with their own theories and conjectures. Ibn Kathir says regarding this issue

"means, if advice and ignoring her in the bed do not produce the desired results, you are allowed to discipline the wife, without severe beating. Muslim recorded that Jabir said that during the Farewell Hajj, the Prophet said;
(Fear Allah regarding women, for they are your assistants. You have the right on them that they do not allow any person whom you dislike to step on your mat. However, if they do that, you are allowed to discipline them lightly. They have a right on you that you provide them with their provision and clothes, in a reasonable manner.) Ibn `Abbas and several others said that the Ayah refers to a beating that is not violent. Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that it means, a beating that is not severe."

This is how early muslims understood the word. Now 1400 years later for the first time in history some kids are telling us that that's not what God is saying. Can you imagine that for 1400 years muslims were unaware of what God was saying and then some people whose knowledge of arabic language equates that of a 6th grader are here to tell us what the verse is really saying. I take what Ibn Kathir says over what these people are saying in a heart beat. Because I know who Ibn Kathir was and I know how knowledgable he was and how respected his authority is while I don't know who are these guys with a laptop and a fake name. Do they even pray 5 times a day?

Noble reply, hajirfm.

Now we know you also believe in these verses and take them as 100% truth, and shall seek to uphold them, by rooting out any potential contradictions in your methodology of life

Estimated elapsed time since birth of prophet Muhammad 1400 years

Now, what is your opinion on the status of the prophet Muhammad, taking into account, the above data presented, and how do you percieve this according to 015.013 of the Reading, which I have taken the liberty of highlighting in such a way that you would more likely miss the broad side of a barn?

Oh, and to all of you others Verse 13 of Surah 15, Al-Hijr, of the Reading pretty much starts and finishes the debate. CASE CLOSED. Period.

What are you trying to prove? What is the case that is closed? Are you having an imaginary debate with yourself? Of course I am aware of those quranic verses. It is God that is preserving the Quran but He has done so through nobel companions and true muslims of previous generations. God did not preserve it by carving the verses on metal tablets! If they were so untrustworthy as someone here suggested then why did god praise the companions and elevated them in the Quran so much?

Also I think some people are using logical fallacies to further their agendas. God condemns blind following of ancestors. But I am not following the previous generation of muslims blindly. I use my intellect in following the scripture and I don't think I am less intelligent than any of the people on this forum. But our intellect has a limit and we should respect the authorities in religion who have a greater knowledge and wisdom in reading the scripture. I for sure take whatever Tabari says over what some guy behind his laptop somwhere in the world with a fake name is saying.

Peace, Hajirfm. Are you "Muslim", in the sense that you believe that which is in the Quran, and all that which is in the Quran? I.e. the Quran, the whole of it?

Salam.

I am muslim in the sense that was taught by prophet Mohammad SAW I testify that there is no god worthy of worship except Allah and that prophet Mohammad SAW is god's last messenger to mankind. I pray and fast, give zakah (got no money though but I will if I have) and insha allah will make pilgrimage to Makkah (Hajj) as soon as I have the means to. Of course I believe in Quran as the word of god. I also believe that I have to ask those who know when I have questions about the Quran. I believe that there are authorities in every subject including quranic sciences. There are people who have spent their entire lives studying the Quran and arabic language and have studied the ahadith and the seerah relating to Quranic verses. I prefer their opinion to any kid's opinion who is studying Quran for a hobby and comes up with theories to make sense of Quran in the way that he is more comfortable with instead of trying to understand Quran the way it was revealed to prophet and the way that the companions and our righteous forefathers understood it. These kids don't impress me. They only impress people like themselves.