Peace all,

From a previous discussion WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE OTHER THAN...HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8469.msg41678;topicseen#msg41678

In 6131, the word used is "al-ins" which is the singular form of "an-nass" present in 2273, with the help of the verse 1146, we can see this clearly.

Please note that "ins" is different from "insaane", and "jin" is different from "jaan" (as in 1527). My view is that "ins" and "jin" are two psychological aspects of the humans "bashar", some humans are more enclined to the aspect "ins" thus called "insaane", the others are more enclined to the "jin" aspect and thus called "jaan".

It's hard to distinguish between those words when reading a translation because translators generally translate "ins" "annas" and "insaane" and "bashar" as the same, which is confusing and sometimes leads to contradictions.

In my view,
Insaan refers to an extrovert person that prefers to be in community with other persons, and mixes well in social situations. Insaan comes from root alif-noun-seen, which means to socialise. An-naas is the plural of al-insaane.

Jaan refers to an introvert or reserved person that prefers to be away from the crowd (and the eyes). Al-jinnatoo is the the plural of al-jaan.

...

Truth Seeker,
This is another interesting take on it, but if Jinn are just the type of people who 'keep to themselves'--they're still people/human, why does the Quran say "people and Jinn", "humans and Jinn", "mankind and Jinn" such as, "i will fill hell with mankind and Jinn"? There it implies that Jinn are separate entities from humans/people/mankind, does it not? So Jinn cannot mean a type of human but something other than human.
Again, I don't speak Arabic, if you do, you'd probably be a better judge of what the Quran says and feel free to correct me. )

In my opinion the "jinns' are gas/fluid based sentient being who lived here on earth among us. (hint Smokeless fire, look around you where you can see smokeless fire, it's up there, the sun, and the sun is one huge ball of gas, mostly of hydrogen)

The 'jinns' true nature are not (yet) revealed to human, perhaps for good reasons..
Imagine what will happen then... human shall enslaved them.. hunt them towards extinction.... look what happened to the whale, lions, rhinos and other 'endangered' species!
For the sake of the 'jinns' it's much better that they remained 'concealed' (from human)

Jafar, let's assume you are right and they are "gas/fluid based sentient beings" -- how then do you interpret Solomon's as army being made of of Jinn (ch 27)... was it like an army of "ghosts"??? I find that hard to believe.

"The 'jinns' true nature are not (yet) revealed to human" -- it sure was revealed to Solomon and he was human. We see tons of other examples in he Quran where humans interact with them. The people of Solomon's time sure were familiar with them if he had a whole army of Jinn working for him. Were his human soldiers not aware that they were standing next to "gas/fluid based sentient beings"?? They certainly didn't make a bid deal out of it.

And that's what bugs me about this issue. The Quran is full of instances where humans interact with Jinn, Solomon being just one example, so if they are these invisible / spirits / ghost-like entities that are SO RARELY seen by humans, why is it that nobody took note of them? Surely, if we in today's time encountered a society of talking bears or hobbits or elves, naturally we would react to them with fear/interest and somebody would take note of it. This is human nature. But that never happens in the Quran. Nobody reacts to them as they would if they were some kind of ghosts or any other unusual creature. And where are they now, how come nobody sees them anymore?

This is why i don't think we have the correct understanding of what these things are. I believe they are present today as they were at Solomon's age, we just don't know what they are and therefore cannot recognize them.

And i'm not even interested in what they are so much, i'm more concerned with why did God even mention them in the Quran if they have nothing to do with us?? In other words, I'm interested in why do we need to know of them more than what they are.

Good news - It has absolutely nothing to do with my way of life, let them be plain humans or demons.
---------------------------------- Student of Allah

Student of Allah, I feel the same way--they have NOTHING to do with my way of life either and i think majority of people would say the same. And that's exactly why i was wondering, why even introduce the subject in the Qur'an if these beings have nothing to do with us? There must be some other reason/significance for them that we're not seeing at the moment. My question is, what is this significance?

Peace HS,

I think I understand what you are saying. I personally don't think that is important or that there is a physical Quran residing somewhere. Arnold Yasin Mol talks about the quantum vacuum and he theorizes that this is where the prophets may have received their revelations from. Pretty interesting research on his end, but we need to remember that these are all theories. Only God knows the definitive truth.

Peace

Hmm, i have never heard of him, i'll have to look into it, sounds interesting ... thank you!

So you're saying that the word Jinn may have different meanings throughout the Quran?
In one place it may mean "selfish desires", in another "nomad tribes", yet in another something else...etc.

Either that, or the meanings our scholars have come up with so far are incorrect because they do NOT satisfy (consistently) every depiction of the Jinn in the Qur'an.

So i wonder if we don't and can't know what they are for sure, why bother mentioning them in the Qur'an at all?

Peace,

God said that he would preserve this Qur'an, correct? if that's teh case, then I would think that what it includes is the same as the "master copy". Then again, 19ers say that what is written in the Qur'ans across the globe is not preserved due to the addition of two "false" verses in Sura 9 (not that I personally believe that, but just giving an example).

Peace

I don't agree with the 19ers either. )
The question is, is God preserving THIS Qur'an in the Master Copy or did this Qur'an come from the Master Copy. I think the latter is more likely since the first would imply that the Master Copy didn't exist until the Qur'an was revealed to Muhammed. Where then did it come from if not from the Master Copy?
And that's exaclt what i'm wondering, does the Master copy contain the word "say" or is God telling Muhammad / us "say the contents of the Master Copy". You see, what i'm saying?

According to Dr Shabbir he states that the fire is the "fiery emotions" of the human being, their selfishness. It is the Satan (human's innder desires/selfishness/etc.) that separates man from God. The Qur'an even calls people Satans or "friends of Satan" since they try to disrupt peace.

OK, let's assume Dr. Shabbir is right, so Jinn is just referring to our "fiery emotions" and those of us who get overpowered by them will eventually be sent to hell, correct? But then how do you explain when God's says in 11119, ?I will fill Hell with the Jinn and the people together!?... In this verse, the jinn= people with fiery emotions.... BUT what abou the people= ?? Clearly there are two parties with which God will fill hell with.
Additionally, Solomon, we're told, had "armies of Jinn" working for him. How would you interpret that in terms of Dr. Shabbir's definition of what Jinn are?

Peace

What I am saying is that what he heard, he said. So if got said "Say", he dictated that as well. Many of these things apply to us as well, not just Muhammad. So that "Say" can also be telling us to "say".

Peace

No, i agree with you that it applies to us as well, not just Muhammad. I was just wondering how it's stated, is the command part of the content of the scripture or is it just a command for our sake. For instance, we know that the Quran is "...is a glorious Reading. In a tablet, preserved." (8521-22) Hypothetically speaking, if i could look at that "tablet", will the "glorious Reading" contain the word "say" or does it just contain "what to say"...

Peace,

According to some, Jinns = desert nomads. Inns = urban dwellers. Therefore the Jinns in regards to Solomon are those "wild tribes" not related to him and his people. Similar things can be said about the ant and the hoopoe. Back this those days, tribes had names of birds and other creatures of nature.

Peace

Peace to you as well!

Yes, i've read that theory too... another similar to that is that the word Jinn might be referring to Gentiles since the word Gentiles stems from a Latin word "gen" meaning "of the same family or clan." And that makes sense to a point, but remember Satan was "of the Jinn", as the Quran states, and they were created from fire while humans were created from clay (see 3876). In other words, these beings are obviously not human.
They also seem to be more powerful than humans, see verse in my original post. Again, pointing to the fact that they are not human.
Lastly, if they were desert nomads or urban dwellers, why does the Quran continuously refer to them as "humans and the jinn"-- it's like saying "humans and the nomads", aren't the nomads human?

Peace,

Didn't Muhammad dictate exactly what he heard?

Peace

Yes, but even if God is saying, "Say ?He is God, the One?, the "say" portion is a command (to act) while the rest is telling him what to say. In other words, this is the content of the scripture, now say it. They "say" part is not part of the scripture.

Good point, I've actually wondered the same myself. bravo

I've also wondered if, for instance, in chapter 112, when it says, "Say ?He is God, the One,? is the word "Say" part of the original scripture as revealed or is that Muhammad (p) instructing the believer to say, "He is God, the One...etc" -- "say" being his word and what to say being God's.

I don't know...

1st Meat for regular everyday consumption is not sacrifice.

2nd Verse 6121

And eat not of that whereon Allah's name hath not been mentioned, for lo! it is abomination. Lo! the devils do inspire their minions to dispute with you. But if ye obey them, ye will be in truth idolaters.

What I understand from the verse is that, WHATEVER we are about to eat, we must mention name of GOD on it, before consumption. I do not think it is about eating sacrificial meat only.

Peace,
Khalil

I agree with Khalil!

The red highlight above is from me.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602533.msg280437#msg280437

Peace,
Khalil

Thank you Khalil! Based on the posts i read, it appears that Kevin D. Cooper "KDC501" agrees with me on the idea that Night of Decree occurs on Dec 21/22... However, he argues for the use of LuniSolar calendar and you support the Lunar calendar instead. As for me, I'm a little bit in between -\ simply becuase i agree on certain points with both of you.

I agree with you when you say,

My point from all of the above is that GOD?S SYSTEM is a JUST system and it will never change. It is a JUST system because for example regarding the month of Ramadzaan, if it is going to be within a fixed month falling within a fixed season every year, its going to be very easy and favorable to some people and unfavorable and hard to others. If for example Ramadzaan is in summer all the time, year after year, the fasting is going to be long and hard for the people living in the northern hemisphere and very short and easy for the residence of the southern hemisphere. This does not hold water within GOD?S system of JUSTICE.

Now if the months of FASTING and HAJJ and? move around the four seasons by 11 or 12 days each year, then everyone gradually goes through all the seasons of the year and no one will be wronged.

But if we accept what you've said above, which makes sense to me, the we can conclude that the Night of Decree does NOT occur on Dec 21/22 and that the whole theory is wrong. Because if the Night of Decree occurs IN the month of Ramadan, it cannot take place during the Winter Solstice (December) while Ramadan is in August (for ex).

In conclusion, if we accept the Lunar calendar theory where Ramadan moves around the four seasons by 11 or 12 days each year, we then must reject the Dec 21/22=Winter Solstice=Night of Decree theory which stays in one place every year. Is my observation correct so far?

Dear Sister Indelwyn,

Question/?

Can you show me a verse or verses in The Qur'an that talks about SEXUALITY/GENDER or MARRIAGE/NIKAAHH regarding The HEREAFTER/AL'AAKHIRAH?

What I meant by the above question is, according to The Qur?an in The Hereafter our physiological/biological structure is going to be quite different from this Earthly one.

In this Earthly life, because of the natural law of ?ENTROPY? which causes the whole material world to age and eventually die out, we need to reproduce, because all living things die according to their life span. Sexuality is an evolutionary phenomenon necessary in serving the needs of Earthly living creatures, not to become extinct as species.

According to The Qur?an, in The Hereafter we will be eternal and will not die at all, so there isn?t going to be any need for reproduction, so there isn?t going to be any need for SEXUAL activity, so there isn?t going to be any need for MARRIAGE/NIKAAHH.

And I personally believe that there isn?t going to be any sexuality, be either ?MALE? or ?FEMALE?.

I am not saying that, the Hereafter is going to be an immaterial realm. What I?m trying to say is that, in the Hereafter our physiological/biological build is going to be different from this very present phase of our existence.

In The Qur?an God Almighty, repeatedly and very frequently, Puts most emphasis on the reality of the Hereafter by vividly describing the Paradise with all kinds of good Earthly like provisions, made readily available for the enjoyment of the believers.

On the other hand, Hell is also described with the most painful Earthly experience, i.e., burning in fire.

According to The Qur?an the Hereafter is the extension of this very present Universe. It is going to evolve out of this very present world. Coming of the Hereafter is not a philosophical opinion. It is a fact. It is an inevitable future event. So it is certainly a real/physical and awesome event.

All I believe is that the governing Natural/PHYSICAL laws of the Hereafter is going to be completely different from the physical laws of this present Universe, and I?m not saying that just out of whim. We read in The Qur?an that in the Hereafter there is no more death, water doesn?t get polluted, and the taste of milk does not change, and so forth.

Peace,
Khalil

Very well said, i absolutely agree with you, Khalil.

So what do you think, are miracles possible and are they only within the laws of Gods laws that he has sat up for us? Thanks
P

I recommend you read C. S. Lewis' book called, "Miracles". Although, he writes from a Christian point of view, he uses remarkable logic to build a solid argument for the existence of divine intervention. I think you will really enjoy it. )

Salaam,

There is NO 'final creation' in 2920, the word you are referring to means 'another' not 'final'.

2920
2920 Say Roam the earth and observe how the creation was initiated. Then Allah will wish, another wish. Indeed Allah is capable of all things.

Thank you for clarifying that! I don't speak Arabic so it always helps to ask. )

Good question... How literal is the quran with regards to the "last day"?

I don't speak Arabic so I don't know if the original word really translates to "final", and that's mainly the reason I asked. But even if it does, you make a good point! ;D

The father of Joseph was Jacob and not Abraham, for Abraham was his great grand father

this verse isn't about jalousy, but a lot of things
they loved their father too much like crasy, to the point they couldn't bear their father cares for the younger one more than them.
it is a lesseon for the kids to don't feel that your father favors a brother, for he loves them all but they don't perceive. Jacob seen something special in his son, he knew he was going to be a prophet, and the kids knew that there is something hidden in their father's mind about joseph, so they didn't understand it and they just followed what their minds told them, so they juged without knowlege and they threw their brother for a wrong reason.
the lesson is for the kids , and not for the fathers i believe, because it is stressed about joseph and his brothers, and not about jacob.

Yes, I meant Jacob! I was reading something about Abraham prior to writing this and accidentally typed his name instead. Sorry about that!

Where are you getting this idea that they loved their father "too much like crazy"?? There's no mention of that in the Qur'an.
Yes, Jacob foresaw Joseph's prophethood, but is that a justified reason to favor him over his brothers?

Thank you Mazhar, that makes a lot more sense now! )

Wakas and exodus, very good points! I agree with both of you. And Layth, thank you for your explanation.

It's just something that I noticed recently, that particular phrase. It struck me as having some significance simply because it's repeated so many times. And I was just wondering if anyone else caught it and what they thought about it (if anything).

HS