Cosmicdancer

I am just leaving this forum today - but on my way I out I caught your post and it's video and I was able to also view the one where you were detailing and exposing the verse about beating women.

Firstly I would like to say well done for being so brave and exposing the issue and doing so in such a clear manner. I have also heard your whole story...... in English this time . However what I see is a problem in taking that literally applying to everyone.

I think it is for the similar reasons as yourself why I left Islam originally and embraced the new age movement instead which advocated for freedom and blind love instead of fighting for justice. I was open to the suggestion that God was just a Quantum field.

It was rather the facing of eventaully feeling spiritually/existentially lost and seeing for teh first time how I had becoem subject to evil forces both in society and spiritual dimensions - that made me believe and really come to understand the dire need for the rope of God and to be on the straight path. If it were not for experiencing for myself the way evil forces working to reduce mankind - I would not be here. I do firmly beleive that there is a spiritual war going on - and that is why there is a need for revelation. Otherwise freewheeling just makes you vulnerable to being seduced and used by the dark forces.

Anyhow aside from that - I make a number of points below as to my own understanding why I can accept the verse about wife beating

As I have indicated in my first post to you - the Quran says that only accept what you understand of the Quran- so perhaps that means not blindly having to accept matters that don't apply to us. I see myself growing in wisdom and I begin to grow in appreciting more and more differnt verses in the Quran - just by reflecting on them. I personally don't thnk that a person can mistranslate - because understanding the Quran will ALWAYS remain a subjective one according to one's own level of conscience.

Historic literature indicates that the prophet did not used to hit his wives. Yet also in the Quran it references where the prophet is asked to just be the messenger not apply his own logic. It is enforced on him not to change any of it.

The Quran is amongst many purposes also a historic reference book that was relevent to the cultured people and the time.

It says in the Quran that the arabs are the worst in morality,

• I don't mean to be racist but I happened to meet with an Arab girl last year on a course and I woudl say I was astounded by her level of mainipulative, controlling and deceitful behaviour. She did not compare with any unbeleiver I had ever met. She appeared to have not morals wahtsoever. Maybe the verse was being directed to women like her.....not that I would prefer to beat her up - I would rather just not associate with her - but if I was a man having to live with her because all of teh women in my community were like that maybe I might see that verse as a blessing for threatening the women to sort themselves out. It might be the way of justice.

Whilst we are to judege between wrong and right - ultimately - only God can be the owner of the day of Judgement.

I am also wondering if you have left only the identifcation of waht constitutes Islam or you also no longer beleive in God ?

In any case I wish you peace and mercy for you to live true to your conscience.

Hi there David K

Thanks for your well wishes.

I just realised a philosophical problem with what I said when I said that I didn't want my blog to become like the nature of hadith.

In this forum it appears - many people are trying to right the wrongs done by hadiths and mistranslations etc etc. The current leaders in thought obviusly have in my mind shed much insight. So we now have alot of new insights supposedly exposing the false Islam. But along with those greater insights - I also see some errors - where these new paradigms that are being campaigned for - in my mind don't entirely stand up to total integrity...

I am not a follower of hadiths but I do see that the hadiths writers were in their minds also trying to right the wrongs of their society by trying to project the context of the Quran in to practical application and creating a cohesive society and community. An example to illustrate their utility is how in the Quran it does not mention about having a clean bum before you pray whereas it deatils the wudu ) I am assumimg that the hadith writers also didn't cover that aspect because it is traditional for everyone to use water - whereas here in the west it is not taken for granted as we tend to use toilet roll. If I started advocating for this to happen - we could have the hadith of HumanDesign established!

You could even spin this whole hadith thing around on it's head and say that this forum is testimony to the compilation of new hadith - as because every post here is acting in a more modern capcity like every other hadith that has ever existed!! Think about it!

Anyhow - without saying any further to which party is most rightly guided (as in hadith V all others)- I would just like to state an observed pattern

History simply appears to be repeating itself - where leading figures are contiuously being churned for defining 'Islam'. And the sects based on differences of opnion are also evident on this forum itself and throughout all of history.

The other dilemma with my blog which I will now try to explain better is that - whilst I persnally do feel that it is highlighting soemthing very useful that current society requires to understand - at the same time I am aware of my own continuing evolutionary development - particualrly now more in the context of the Quran.

Therefore if my commitment is towards truth - then I also have to accept that I may not have 'sorted' it yet.
If I am to accept the possiblity of changes in my understanding in the future then it stands to reason that the contents of my blog may also not be timeless - the same way that the hadith may have been compiled for those people at a certain point in time. If I can't guarantee that the contents of my blog will be timeless then how can I gurantee total integrity of what I myself purport to be preaching?

Partiularly as I see many leaders who may get stuck in a rut for defending their approaches because they have already established it and advocated to the public as a working system. It then becoems too difficult for them to accept change as otherwise they might lose face and support and hence power, fame or otherwise glory. That's just my personal impression of the situation.

Therefore I see how my own blog could simply be replicating the workings of a new hadtih.

Anyhow - as I've indicated before - the best I feel that I can do is simply go out there and live and try to grow by my conscience. Currently for me that is by reading and learning the Quran for myself and practicing on the job (applying myself in realtime - life itself). For me the Quran is more to do with how I live my life with the others around me and perhaps how I also call the wisdom of the Quran to the beleivers - but moreso on the job - not on the preaching and theroetical level as would be the case here in this forum.

I guess another limitation of being on this forum, that I am curently facing is that I feel my my brain is getting polluted by many differing thoughts/perspectives on verses that are being presented here. Even if I have understood something to be as false - it may still be popping up at a relevent situation and I can not be sure if it is necessarily authentic - i.e did I manage to verify it for myself in the Quran - or it was based on a disqualified perspective that I read and in my mind already acknowledged it as such on the forum. I just find myself not feeling so sure.

Better I purify my mind and sit with the Quran and try to hear it for myself. sun

So I am officially signing off now.

Best wishes to everyone on their journey in this life.. and for the hearafter....and particualrly to David K - for letting me expereince some genuine warmth here on this forum. Certainly may peace be upon you.

David - K

Thanks for your kind support and for going out of your way to clarify.

I think I do already agree with alll what you have said , though I havn't explicitly covered what you are saying. I really didn't feel the need to because all of that had previously been covered in this thread by the others including yourself.

So the hole (missing perspective)that you were trying to address in my point - I feel I covered it when I said

But just to balance what everyone has said on this post - Do bear in mind that the Quran also talks of God raising people/crops from the dead as a sign of all possiblities of God. Also there is a call for compassion and forgiveness.

and also I said

And the great blessing is that as per Quran we do appear to have so many options.

i.e - work with family or move away does appear to be o.k by the Quran.

It was just my intention to add the other perspective that I did not see referenced here on this thread - so to balance matters out. And perhaps in my mind I was going back to the time when I did try to move away and so it was with hindsight that I was saying to myself - 'how can you abandon' . For this is what has worked out as the truth for me personally. But I understand that aswell sometimes it indeed may be agianst the will of God - or may be in that time when I came to the point of moving away - it was because my attempts were against the will of God... who knows.

But I was trying really to give my own example and make the point that sometimes you can - help yourself in striving for family enlightenment.. but that also - only the person in that situation will know best what is right for them.

These days I do personally in my life see how God answers my prayers (maybe not always so directly - but certainly I do see the grace of it) - and so that's just something else that I wanted to add as a possiblity.

Thanks for your support anyway - I'm glad not all my efforts have been in vain!!.

I wasn't going to bother with the blog anymore - because I think I might be idolising my own life - same as the prophet is idolised in the hadith. It is soon to be deleted I'm afraid!! But I wish you all the best - it does not mean that I advocate it is not the right thing to do as far as others are concerned - just it does not feel right for me. And I do distinguish between what I see as lesser errors of life and the way of the satanic movement taking one to very serious damnation. This is a revelation I have had through personal expereince.

It is those serious matters where I know I have been brought to deep conviction that I try to speak against - I don't try to fight against everything that stands against my conscience - because yes it could be another perspective.

Anyhow best wishes to everyone.
May God keep you safe and well.

Dear Carly,

I'm sorry if I sounded like it was a rant - but I did start off by saying that it is difficult for another person to advise another as other people are not equipped to understand the full circumstance - I feel only the person themselves would know whats best. Particulary you have probably endured far worse than me.

But I was trying to highlight my personal case as example of possibilities. In my case - when I see my family members - I certainly do not remember about the abuse that I receivd and I am glad for that. We only share love - perhaps that is easy becasue we have all moved on. I was only trying to say that healing on all levels is possible as I have seen it in my life with my family. Praise be to God. And aswell I do say that in my case - perhaps if I harboured resentment I know it would definitely have been a different story.

Yes I was already aware that it is God who guides pople - and not other people being responsible for that. But my understanding from the Quran is that we are supposed to do good works and enjoin righteousness and help people towards right conduct. And as I said that rest we leave to God. May be that is not your path but from personal success with my own family (on dealing with such deeper issues I guess) - I do feel it is part of my path.

David-K I never claimed to be the one responsible for guiding my family - but by your very act of replying to me and highlighting those verses - what do you think you are doing? Are you not trying to correct and perhaps guide me? I thought thats what a lot of peopel are doing on this forum- even by their replying to carly with friendly advice. ... and aswell I already said that where I do not manage with my family - I leave the rest to God. Do you not think that I am already aware of what you are trying to guide me about?

And Carly 'hey you - i'm your messenger' - is not the way my family see me. Rather they draw on the genouristy and sincerity of my personality to know that ultimately I allow them the freedom to be as they may. I only try to highlight truths and leave the rest - my family adore me to bits and can't get enough of me.

Anyhow Carly - the life goals given to us by God may be different so you go ahead and be true to yourself in the way that you are - yes you really do deserve to look after yourself first and foremost.

All the best wishes and love.

oops I meant

It is clear how that actually fits with many people on this thread - yet also the same interpreaation will be seen as wrongly misintepreted by many others.

2Pacs - you are right it is just my truth. But that is all I can do right now - I have to live by my convictions just as you must live by yours.

I think certainly debating can be good when it gets one to iron out one's insufficiencies - but there be a point where it should not go on pointlessly - and I feel that I have reached that point here. I do have more to give but as I don't feel like I am being heard and end up having to repeat myself and correct people so much then I see it as a fruitless task. And since I am aslo unable to accept what others are saying - so then what be the point of continuing in that way??

I see on the following thread (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12200.0) after 21 pages or so that there was no real progression in the debate in terms of sides being convinced of each other's arguments. There is a Zainab on the thread who many at the end were commending for putting up an argument but in fact now I see she has totally left the forum and after alll that hard work did not manage to win over the opposition.

May I not have the rights to execise my intelligence as to how I spend my time what I feel is wisely or otherwise??

And in fact throughout this whole forum I see there still no concensus in the matter of salat. I was only able to arrive at my own conclusions by reading and investigating the Quran for myself. It is clear how that actually fits with many people on this thread - it will be seen as wrongly misintepreted.

I personlly think that the best thing anyone can do is read and try to understand the Quran for themselves and live by it instead of endlessly debating on it with people till kingdom come. I don;t beleive that people shoudl have to come to a concensus for the sake of being agreed. But rather they should stand for their own truths whatever be in line with their conscience - I really feel that God will then guide the person if they be sincere.

And if that means for some people debating with everyone - and beleiveing in OOBE - so be it.
So there you go - now I accpt for you to go your way - permission granted - but in teh same respect let me also reserve my rights not to engage with this anymore. sun

Best wishes for God's guidance on us all.

We are given permission to leave when we have done our duty - I have given enough verses from the Quran backed with my own expereinces. All of this is the truth.

I can't help you anymore if you feel that is not enough because I feel that you are not open to the truth but are just wasting my time.

I feel able to leave the discussion now because

Say "O you who reject the truth,"
"I do not worship what you worship,"
"Nor do you worship what I worship,"
"Nor will I worship what you worship,"
"Nor will you worship what I worship,"
"To you is your path, and to me is mine."

2pac

Feed a poor person with your hard-earned dollars (work in vain)

OR

give him the tools to cultivate the land for himself and then leave him be if he is too lazy not to bother working for himself? (not work in vain)

Amin74
Yes I have felt that shadowy figure what you are saying and the feeling of intense fear - to not to invite it to me. But I have not felt it since changing my practices which did not involve OOBEing.

The problem is that people will put alot of exuses on it - like it is the shadowy part of your own self - when you are OOBEing that you are seeing, or that you should not fear it.

But what exactly that is or is not - who can actually verify it - other than the person who is experiencing it relying on their own instincts guiding them not go there.

We should respect our feelings and experiences much more than the interpretations of others.

Perhaps some people may feel compatibiltiy with those shadowy figures and so may not feel the fear.

May God protect you.

By the way about two days ago I was on the bus and I opened the Quran to read it - and low and behold it opened on a reference that we had been discussing about and it showed clear proof of the whole debate as to what is taking place here - it was literally there. I thanked God for this and was meaning to give it here in due course - but defintiely, definteily I am not going to bother now as all my efforts would be in vain and I don't beleive that God wishes for effort to be made in vain.

I have tried to warn you - not to get you to follow soemthing of me - but to warn you of the dangers of straying from the straight path.

If I have understood correctly from the Quran - that the rejecters will have a more painful doom than those not warned.

Please be on your way and let me be on mine.

David - K

What you are saying sounds reasonable but there is a slight hole - in that everything can be forgiven but not idolatry yet,,,, not an atoms weight will be ignored of deeds done on earth for calculating our worth.

Therefore, if it were the case that idolatry were simply the biggest sin it would be more straightforward to simply say that idolatry is the highest sin. So then we could have understood that everything is registered and we will be given our worth taking in to account also our levels of repentence. But it does not appear to make such a clarity as far as I am aware.

I honestly don't know the answer - but many times I see when I am reading from the whole Quran and I ponder for a while on a verse that does not make sense - I find myself in one way or another coming to a conviction - I guess I would need to come to the place in the Quran naturally and see what happens when I try to comprehend it.

Aswell - not forgetting that all of the prophets and angels will be wieighed as well.

I think I have learnt my lesson here - do not argue with a fool lest you become reduced to one.

What you have endured Carla - there is no excuse for it - it should not happen. It is a terrible thing.

It is also difficult to advise what is the correct thing to do for another person - I really feel only the person who can know what is best - is the person in that situation - they can do according to what is fitting for their conscience then it will be less stressful for them. And the great blessing is that as per Quran we do appear to have so many options.

But personally I am also sorry to say Carla - after having faced abuse myself - and later in life (more recently) having faced a phase of new ageism (which itself is abusive to human nature) - whereaby my life became partly engrossed in addressing all the things that other people had done wrong to me in my childhood and trying to bring all of that to the surface and realeasing it and continousouly feeling sorry for myself - I would say all this feeling sorry for ourselves is a weakness enjoined on us by society and is because of the influence of satan. It does not do us any good - especially I would not go to any psychotherapist who will just try to bring more of the hurt to the foreforent - such that you have to live through it again - it is not a helpful thing.

First and foremost I beleive is to safegurad and fortify/strengthen yourself from the atrocities being committed against, then one can safely engage.

I love my family and always pray for their well-being and that they be guided to the straight path. Now I know that when I used to be reminded of the pain in my new age days - that was just the pull of satan. Normally I did not and do not remember and especially after having safe-guarded myself - I do not wish for them to suffer at all. I still maage to engage with them safely - when I see them committing injustices I speak my mind and try to do all that I can and when I see the will of God is against me - then I surrender the rest to God. I do say that we are also evolving in our growth towards wisdom - I see that evident in my own family and perhaps I see it with your family in your own story.

But just to balance what everyone has said on this post - Do bear in mind that the Quran also talks of God raising people/crops from the dead as a sign of all possiblities of God. Also there is a call for compassion and forgiveness.

I personally could not find peace by breaking off from my family - when I tried to do this once or twice.

One day I sat down and prayed to God that my mother become aware of all her wrongs whilst she is still living - so that she may be forgiven by God for her acknowledging to God. As I did not wish for her or anyone to suffer punisment in teh hereafter.

The next day she phoned me out of the blue crying feeling ever so sorry about everything she had subjected me to in my childhood. Never had I even appraoched her about such matters - I got so freaked out by this and have not had the courage to pray like that again (using the same method) - but I just wanted to let you that no prayer is impossible when we humbly with all our hearts turn to God - not that you should expect God to work for you but rather for the love of God because you are trying to bring good to the world.

It might seem easier to run away and disown family and live life away from having to see their faces and not be reminded of their incmpatible ways with the way of peace, justice and truth - but it may be that God has ordained a greater purpose in your life for being placed amongst those people who really need a messenegr or a phrophe to help save them form their ignorance.

People doing wrong may not be fully aware of the wrong they are doing. It is the truth that as humans we are not all at the same level of understanding and everybody will have different levels of vices - yet if the angels can cry to God for our salavation - then who are we to abandon others (though also ensuring that we are not putting ourselves in jeopoardy).

I would wish that we can wish upon humanity the compassion to be shown the right way - just as I would wish to be shown the right way if I am wrong and fall in to error....

My you find the peace in your heart to be able to extend it to those who did you injustice.

2 pacs - again I have to engage in doing so much corrections.

How can you judge me whether I have not been objective or not - I did investigate the matter - I did dwleve in the matter with blind faith and the result and my conclusion upon deeper investigation became different - such that eveything themn made sense whereasas it did not before. the prophet when he brought onteh revelations would not have been able to clarify everything he was revealing or caliming to teb the word fo God - yet he still went with the conviction that it was all of the truth.

I have already indicated previously in this same thread - all of our faculties would ideally need to be engaed - meaning the intellectual aswell - when in equal balance or integrity with each other - then fine - but I the problem I am trying to highlight here is intellectual taking precedence - taking importance - if you read back on my posts on this thread - I 'm sure you will be abel to see how this is what I meant.

I never said about leaving this forum all together - I said about not engaiging (as in actively engaging in discussion) with this forum but rather spending my time with the Quran - that may mean looking up references within this forum or in the Quran. Though at this time I am feeling that my tiem spent with the Quran is actually better for me - because then my learning becomes more bespoke. But who's tosday that I don't use both.

Nice to hear some ground -level wisdom.

Yes I totally agree with the matter of what you have said - but also - point of consideration - in the Quran it says that God can forgive everthihng apart from idol worship - would that not make the majority of us doomed?

;D Best wishes, sincerely! ;D

Fadhli when did I sign off this forum as a bad place ??? - to the contrary - I signed off giveing my thanks for all the insights in to the Quran I gained that helped strengthen my convictions.

I am really tired of people not listening and tuning in to what a person has said before they speak - it is so indicative of how the person themselves may also be detached from the truth of God and reality. I just feel I have to spend time correcting people and repeating myself - therefore wasting my time.

In my personal experience and overview of this forum I would say there is a strong and undeniable culture of egotism within it that predominates over humility. Thats why I haven't found many humble people joining in discussions here - because birds of one feather tend to flock together. As far as I have seen the real peopel have long flown away after having said their peice or having learnt all that they could and graduated from all teh material contained here.

2pac - life is not exactly black and white following the same rules of law everywhere. For example - there are different classess of plants - some are poisonous and some are good for you - I know there are plants that some people may be allergic to and others not - but I am not talking about that here - I 'm saying some are definitely poisonous to all of humanity.

Fadhli & Co - As far as I can see in this thread - you have not even understood God's system that is advocated for in the Quran.

Fadhli,

Labelling is the only way we can identify what we are talking about - it is a language for communication.

Physical exercise is a label to which belong categories of certain activities.

However if someone lableled my sitting and watching tv as exercise - I would get a knee jerk reaction, hence I would not like being lablled. Though very appropriately it could be seen as a physical exercise relative to sleeping and then sleeping could be seen as exercise relative to someone who is dead.

I was not scared of my activities that brought on the expereinces - the scary factor came when I actaully started seeing things that felt scary. I am very confident that if you ever had had the opportunity of getting to know me in person - how I live my life - you would know that I am not a negative person.

I am at this point in time reminded of the proverb where the sage points to the moon and says look at that and the idiot looks at the finger instead of the moon and does not see the beauty or magnitude to which the sage is actually pointing to. I have been already to the reasong that you are with but you have not been where I have managed to climb - yet you argue with me as if you know. The best you could say is that you remain open to the possiblity of what I am talking about.

I see your pursuits as falling in to the realm of the occult and new ageism. Please look them up to find out what they commonly allude to instead of firing blanks at me that are not inspired by knowledge.

New ageism and the occult are just the means - the vehicle that satan is using to draw up his supporters and take them away from the straight path.

We are certaily on different paths.

I am going to exit engaging in this forum - because I have said all I have to say but I do feel that my truth is being ignored.

This forum is cultured with egotism in favour of worshippping one's own desires or intellect - instead of submitting to God's will and design/system that we are supposed to be following.

Just at the point when I started engaging in discussion with you orignially - I saw a clear dream where I was busy writing away replying - but somone told me directly to read the Quran instead throughout the night. I don't know about the night part - but I do see the logic with spending my time with the Quran instead. And then I can simply pratice on the job so to speak as I live my life with those around me.

May God humble your heart enough so that you may know right from wrong before you are wronged.

P.S - I just figured earlier that when in the Quran it say O cloaked one read and meditate on the Quran throughout the night - it means that the prophet being cloaked - he is protected from other entities - that is the proper meaning of being cloaked. The verse was talking to the prophet to do the meditations - because he was protected from teh evil ones descending on him. Aswell when we are asked to recite the Quran we are requested to seek God's protection first and lets not forget how your behaviour to me has appeared to deteriorate since trying to OOBE.

I thank everyone for strengthing of my convictions by the truths presented in the Quran - of which the blind may not see.

In my personal experience it is a harmful practice - that makes it unnatural - I have nothing more to say.

It now feels you are now truly begininng to speak in the language of Fadhli (!)