Salaam,

As-salam alaykoum wa rahmatu-Llah wa barakatuh,
Thanks.

Michel Cuypers has already treated the rhetorical analysis of this sura (but in French) as well as a comparative study with Psalm 136.
You will find this work here (also as a downloadable .doc)
https//www.academia.edu/36041559/La_Sourate_55

You can then use deepl.com (better) or any other free English translation tool.

For my part, I prefer to deal first with the suras that he has not analyzed and there is a lot to do.

Bonjour Iyyaka, merci beaucoup.

Much appreciated.

Salaam,

Asalam-o-Alaikum,

وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا دَاوُودَ مِنَّا فَضْلًا ۖ يَا جِبَالُ أَوِّبِي مَعَهُ وَالطَّيْرَ ۖ وَأَلَنَّا لَهُ الْحَدِيدَ ﴿١٠﴾
AND , indeed, did We grace David with Our favour “O you mountains! Sing with him the praise of God! And you birds!” And We softened all sharpness in him, (10)

Could someone please shed some light what is mean by mountains and Birds in this verse?

Thanks

Peace NK,

I think that al-jibal and al-tayr could mean something else than mountains and birds.

I would mostly agree with those who say that al-jibal and al-tayr could refer to tribes/people living in mountains and people/tribes of al-tayr .

Some elements to explore

https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/34/10/

3410 And We certainly granted David favours from Us. "O al-jibal -- awwibī maʿahu / be obedient with him (David) / معه اوبي -- and al-tayr (as well) ." And We softened the iron for him.

اوبي... / awwibī ... from the root أوب Alif Waw Ba

http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Awb

some translate اوبي / awwibī as sing/echo/glorify ...

-In the following verses for example اواب / awwab from the root أوب Alif Waw Ba, has the meaning of

obedient / turn to

https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/38/17/

https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/38/19/

https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/38/30/

https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/38/44/

https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/50/32/

---

-In the following verse للاوبين / li al-awwibīna, from the root أوب Alif Waw Ba, has the meaning of

those who turn (unto Him) / to the obedient

https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/17/25/

---

al-jibal and al-tayr referring to people would make more sense than mountains and birds.

Note the favors of God to David

3410 And We certainly granted David favours from Us. "O al-jibal be obedient with him and al-tayr (as well) ." And We softened the iron for him

• made al-jibal and al-tayr obedient (3410) with him

• made al-jibal and al-tayr subjected (2179 and 381 with him / in order to glorify/sabbih with him

• softening iron for him

which resulted in strengthening his kingdom. (so there seems to be a purpose for these favors)

3410 And We certainly granted David favours from Us. "O al-jibal be obedient with him and al-tayr (as well) ." And We softened the iron for him

---

2179 So We gave understanding of the case to Solomon, and to each We gave sound judgment and knowledge. And We subjected with David al-jibal glorifying/yousabbihna and al-tayr (as well) and We were the doers (thereof)

---

3818 Indeed, We subjected al-jibal with him(David) glorifying/yousabbihna in the evening and sunrise.

3819 And al-tayr assembled, all to him obedient.

3820 And We strengthened his kingdom and We gave him wisdom and decisive speech.

Concering "sabbih SBH"

As good logic mentioned in his post in 2441 the "sabbih SBH" is an example of a meaning of "sabbih SBH"

The "sabbih SBH" concerning al-jibal and al-tayr in relation to David is different, here it is with him (David) i.e for a purpose

if we take al-jibal and al-tayr meaning mountains and birds --> they "sabbih SBH" to God since their creation.

What would be the purpose of subjecting mountains and birds to "sabbih SBH" with David ?

What would the "sabbih SBH" of mountains and birds add to the "sabbih SBH" of David ?

Why specifically mountains and birds and not other inanimates and/or other animals?

---

See for example Wakas article about other meanings for "sabbih SBH"

http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

Siin-Ba-Ha = to swim, roll onwards, perform a daily course, float, the act of swimming, occupy oneself in the accomplishment of his needful affairs or seeking the means of subsistence, business/occupation, those who are floating, went/travel far, being quick/swift. To praise/glorify/hallow/magnify, sing/celebrate praise, holy, declaring God to be far removed or free for every imperfection/impurity

If a human was to SBH like the bird with wings outspread, then the equivalent would be walking, running etc but this is only expressing ourselves through the laws of nature. One may argue that the bird is simply doing what it does out of instinct (inbuilt programming) and whilst humans have an inbuilt program to some extent (see 3030), we can also choose to express ourselves through God's revealed law, e.g. by carrying out a commandment from The Quran, such as giving to charity, abstinence, feeding a needy person etc. Doing so could be classed as a type of SBH/glorification, and such an association seems to be present in the following verses

2030 (Moses said) "Aaron, my brother."
2031 "Reinforce with him my resolve."
2032 “And share with him my task.”
2033 “That we may glorify/SBH You plenty.”
2034 “And remember You plenty.”

There is also a possible contrast being made in this verse
And your Lord said to the controlling forces "I am placing a successor on Earth." They said "Would You place in it he who would corrupt in it and spill blood while we glorify with Your praise, and sanctify You ?" He said "I know what you do not know."

---

Another element to explore

A conversation between Solomon and a soldier of the people/tribe of al-tayr (would make more sense than a conversation with a bird)

2716 And inherited Solomon David. And he said, "O people! We have been taught (the) mantiq (of) al-tayr , and we have been given from every thing. Indeed, this surely, it (is) the favor evident.

2717 And were gathered for Solomon his armies of al-jinn and al-ins and al-tayr, and they (were) set in rows
...
2720 And he inspected al-tayr and said, "Why not I see the hud-hud or is he from the absent

2721 I will surely punish him (with) a punishment severe or I will surely slaughter him unless he brings me a reason clear.

2722 So he stayed not long, and he said, "I have encompassed that which not you have encompassed it, and I have come to you from Saba with news certain

2723 Indeed, I found a woman ruling them and she has been given of every thing and for her (is) a throne great

2724 And I found her and her people prostrating to the sun instead of Allah, and has made fair-seeming to them the Shaitaan their deeds, and averted them from the Way, so they (are) not guided

2725 That not they prostrate to Allah, the One Who brings forth the hidden in the heavens and the earth and knows what you conceal and what you declare

2726 Allah (there is) no god but He, (the) Lord (of) the Throne the Great.

2727 He said, "We will see whether you speak (the) truth or you are of the liars

2728 Go with my letter, this, and deliver it to them. Then turn away from them and see what they return.

---

Note also about Al-Naml

2718 Until when they came to the valley of the Naml, a Namlite said O Naml! enter your houses, lest Solomon and his armies do not crush you while they do not realize.

2719 So he smiled, laughing from her speech and said my Master, enable me to thank for Your favors that You granted me and my parents, and to do good work to please You, and admit me among Your righteous servants by Your mercy

A tribe named Al-Naml woud make more sense than an ant speaking, and that Solomon could hear/understand her speech.

---

Anothher intriguing element

• al-jibal and al-tayr are related to David

• and al-jinn and al-tayr are related to Solomon

• al-jibal is not mentioned in relation to Solomon

• and al-jinn is not mentioned in relation to David

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Salaam,

Salam Aleykoum,

The purpose of this topic is to keep you informed of the progress of my work on the STRUCTURAL ANALYSIS attempt of the Quranic text using the principles of Semitic rhetoric.
To study and meditate on it, you will find a PDF document to download on the home page of my site https//reveniraucoran.fr/ (in French or in English).

it begins with an overall view and sura 1 - Al Fatiha.

NB pdf format permits you to go directly to the main sections of the document using links known as bookmarks (signets/favoris in french) - recommended usage.

Peace be upon you.

Peace Iyyaka,

Thanks for sharing.
I am very curious to see the STRUCTURAL ANALYSIS of chapter 55 Al-Rahman.

Salaam,

Coronavirus The Hammer and the Dance.

https//medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56

Salaam,

Peace....

I am entirely against your opinion.... it doesn't match with my understanding of quran.... perhaps for you...

let me say why i am against... so, let me know whether your opinion or explanation befit

2717 "And gathered for Solomon were his soldiers of the jinn and men and birds, and they were in rows."

2720 "And he took attendance of the birds and said, "Why do I not see the hoopoe - or is he among the absent?"

If HudHud was either Man or Jin why it was called as bird... Was there Birds among Sulaiman's Soldiers? Yes... God clearly used Men, Jin and Bird...

Further What did Sulaiman Check? He checked ATTENDANCE from the BIRDS? and found HudHud was missing... Sulaiman didn't check from Men or Jinn..

Regarding Naml...
Do you have the courage to say that Sulaiman and his soldiers were ruthless to crush a innocent human tribe who are so visible to their eyes? Were they boasting in a way saying let everyone aside, we are in a processission ... That's not suited for a messenger and his soldiers...Then why Sulaiman was so impressed at her speech? and immediately thanking God after listening to her... why God used as sulaiman was amazed at HER speech if it was a tribe? no idea whether tribe is feminine or masculine in quran... But for me your assumption is far from truth...

Human cannot judge whether birds have free will or not.... as per quran it seems YES..

Peace jkhan,

As I said "consider" not that the alternative explanations are complete.

Tair and Hudhud

https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/27/17/default.htm

waḥushira lisulaymāna junūduhu mina l-jini wal-insi wa al-ṭayri fahum yūzaʿūna
وَحُشِرَ لِسُلَيْمَانَ جُنُودُهُ مِنَ الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنسِ وَالطَّيْرِ فَهُمْ يُوزَعُونَ

---

https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/27/20/default.htm

watafaqqada al-ṭayra faqāla mā liya lā arā l-hud'huda am kāna mina l-ghāibīna
وَتَفَقَّدَ الطَّيْرَ فَقَالَ مَا لِيَ لَا أَرَى الْهُدْهُدَ أَمْ كَانَ مِنَ الْغَائِبِينَ

al-tayr / الطير which most translate as birds has also other meanings

http//arabiclexicon.hawramani.com/search/%D8%B7%D9%8A%D8%B1?cat=50

Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane

طير
...
b2 It is also said of other things than those which have wings;

as in the saying of El-'Amberee (Kureyt Ibn-Uneyf, Ham p. 3)

طَارُوا إِلَيْهِ زَرَافَاتٍ وَوُحْدَانَا ; (TA i. e. they hasten to it

for طِرْتُ إِلَى كَذَا means (assumed tropical I hastened to such a thing

and طِرْتُ بِكَذَا (assumed tropical I outstripped, or became foremost, with such a thing.

(Ham p. 6.) And طار عَلَى مَتْنِ فَرَسِهِ (tropical He fled upon the back of his horse.

(TA, from a trad.) And طار القَوْمُ (assumed tropical The people took fright and ran away quickly.

(Msb.) And طَارُوا سِرَاعًا (assumed tropical They went away quickly. (TA.)
...
طَيَّارٌ (tropical A sharp, spirited, vigorous, horse, (K, TA,) that is almost made to fly by reason of the vehemence of his running;

Solomon's horses 38 31-33

https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/38/31/
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/38/32/
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/38/33/

---

Some translate/ explain Tair, Hudhud this way

-----Shabbir Ahmed----------
2716 Solomon was David's heir in continuation of Allah's Revelation. He said, "O People! We have been given a great cavalry of ready horses with the best knowledge of training them, and given every blessing. This evidently is a great Bounty on our nation." ((2179), (3410). Solomon ruled as King from 965 to 926 B.C.) )
2717 Solomon's army included warrior tribes of the woods and the mountains, dwellers of townships, and great riders of the tribe of Taer. They were well disciplined, and dedicated to any appointed mission.
...
2720 (Leaving the peaceful tribe of An-Naml alone, Solomon marched forward.) As he examined the cavalry, he said, "How is it that I do not see the commander
2721 (Absconding from the marching army was a breach of discipline.) Solomon said, "Unless the commander presented a good reason I would punish him or demote him to a low rank."

-----Ghulam Ahmad Parwez----------
2716 And after David, Solomon became his successor. (This was not because he was David’s son but because he was competent for this exalted position.) He said to the people, “Just look at the strength and the might of this kingdom and the abundance of everything that is available here. We possess a very strong cavalry and we are fully aware of its capability and discipline. (In those days the cavalry was considered the backbone of the army – 2179, 3410.)
All these bounties, power and ability to defend are indeed evident, and these are sure signs of God’s favour.
2717 Solomon’s army consisted of civilized people from the cities; savage and mighty brutes from the mountainous jungles; and swift horse riders from the tribe of Tair. All of them were kept in camps so that, after proper training, their capabilities could be gainfully utilized.
...
2720 (One day, while on the march, Solomon asked of some cavalry men who were not present at the time.) When they arrived, he asked them, “Where is your chief Hud-Hud (Hoopoe)? Has he gone somewhere for a while or is he absent from his duty?”
2721 If he is absent (then according to the rules of the army) I will punish him severely. Moreover, if he does not produce any explicit authority (valid reason for absence), he may even be sentenced to death.

------Amatul Rahman Omar---------
2716 And Solomon succeeded David and he said, O you people! we have been taught the language of the birds (and also the technique of horsemanship), and bestowed with everything (essential for us). This indeed is a distinct favour (of God and His grace).' 2717 And there were gathered together before Solomon his hosts comprising of jinn (- haughty) and (ordinary) men and birds and swift footed horses, and they were then arranged in separate well-disciplined columns. ... 2720 And (once) he reviewed the birds and the (cavalry of) swift running horses and said, How is it that I do not see (my officer named) Hudhud? Is he deliberately absent?
2721 I will certainly punish him very severely, rather I will execute him or else he must give me some valid excuse (for remaining absent).

Neutral

----Ahmed Ali--------
2716 Solomon was heir to David, and he said "O people, we have been taught the language of Tair, and have been given of everything. This is a clear favour indeed."
2717 His armies of jinns and men and Tair assembled, formed into ranks, (and marched)
...
2720 When he reviewed the Tair, he said "How is it I do not see Hud-hud? Is he absent?
2721 I will punish him severely, or cut his throat, unless he bring a valid excuse."

Naml

See also this discussion about Naml in Arabic

https//vb.tafsir.net/tafsir57827/

Though with tanslation tools one could understand what is most relevant.

https//translate.google.com/translate?hl=nl&sl=ar&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fvb.tafsir.net%2Ftafsir57827%2F

---

Note also that "fatabassama ḍāḥikan" is "smiled, amused / laughing" not "impressed, amazed"

---

Some translate/ explain about Naml this way

-----Shabbir Ahmed----------
2718 Once (when Solomon was on an expedition to the South), they came upon the valley ruled by Queen An-Naml. The Queen, (realizing the power of Solomon), ordered her armies, "Go back in your barracks, lest Solomon and his armies crush you without knowing that we are a peaceful tribe."
2719 Solomon smiled joyously at her words and said, "My Lord! Enable me to be grateful for your blessings upon me and my parents. Enable me to work for the betterment of humanity and thus please You. Include me, by Your Grace, among your righteous servants."

-----Ghulam Ahmad Parwez----------
2718 At one time Solomon learnt that the state of Sheba was planning to attack. So as a precaution he took his army towards them. The valley of Namal was on the way and like that of the state of Sheba; its head of state was a woman. When she received news of this army, she ordered her subjects to remain in their dwellings to save themselves. She did not ascertain whether they had any connection or alliance with their enemy the state of Sheba, and she was afraid that the troops might crush them.
2719 Solomon smiled when he heard this. (These poor souls were right. They had heard and seen that whenever the royal army passed an area, it brought nothing but destruction. However, did they not understand that this was the army of a messenger of Allah’s, whose purpose was not to disturb the innocent but to give them protection?) Then he prayed to his God, “O my Rabb! You have granted me a great empire. Therefore also grant me adequate restraint and self-control so that instead of causing destruction to mankind, the strength and stately splendour you have bestowed on me and my parents can be utilized for people’s benefit and for reforming their affairs. Every step of mine should be in conformity with Your laws, so that I can be included amongst the subjects whose abilities develop through your rabubiyya and rahma; and those who are responsible for reforming the affairs of mankind.

------Amatul Rahman Omar---------
2718 (Once he was marching with them) until when they (his armies) reached the valley of (the tribe named) al-Naml, a distinguished Namlite said, O al-Naml! get into your habitations lest Solomon and his hosts should crush you unknowingly.' 2719 Thereupon he (- Solomon) wondered and was pleased with (the good opinion the Namlite expressed about his own and his army's power and piety) and said (praying), My Lord! rouse me up that I may offer thanks for the favours You have shown me and my forefathers and that I should do such deeds as are righteous and may please You, and count me through Your mercy with Your righteous servants.'

Neutral

----Ahmed Ali--------
2718 Till they reached the Valley of Naml. Said the lady of Naml "O Naml, go into your dwellings lest Solomon and his hordes should crush you unawares."
2719 (Solomon) smiled, amused at her speech, and said "O Lord grant me that I should be grateful for the favours You have bestowed on me and my parents, and do good things of Your pleasing; and admit me among Your righteous devotees by Your grace."

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Salaam,

Why not consider the opinion / explanations of those who say that

• Al Hudhud = the name of an officer in Solomon's army?

and

• Al Naml = the name of a tribe?

Some issues

Few facts that could be derived from 2718, 2722-24

• An ant is aware of human being's name "Soloman"
• An ant is aware that an "army" of humans are approaching them
• An ant is aware that the army can "unintentionally" kill them
• A bird knows the city name "Sheba"
• A bird knows that the city Sheba is ruled by a "woman"
• A bird knows that the ruler has "great throne"
• A bird noticed that people of Sheba were "prostrating to sun"
• A bird also knows that "devil" has made the people prostrate to the sun

....

Some also add

• Do birds have free will, can they chose to lie or to say the truth?

2727 He said, "We will see whether you speak (the) truth or you are of the liars.

https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/27/27/default.htm

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Salaam,

2782
wa-idhā waqaʿa l-qawlu ʿalayhim akhrajnā lahum dābbatan mina l-arḍi tukallimuhum anna l-nāsa kānū biāyātinā lā yūqinūna
واذا وقع القول عليهم اخرجنا لهم دابه من الارض تكلمهم ان الناس كانوا بايتنا لا يوقنون

---

ك ل م

Kaaf - Laam - Meem

• speak / communicate

• wound

(كَلَمَ)

الْكَافُ وَاللَّامُ وَالْمِيمُ أَصْلَانِ أَحَدُهُمَا يَدُلُّ عَلَى نُطْقٍ مُفْهِمٍ، وَالْآخَرُ عَلَى جِرَاحٍ.

http//arabiclexicon.hawramani.com/search/%D9%83%D9%84%D9%85?cat=9

---

https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/27/82/default.htm

Most translate as speak / communicate

Some as wound

https//youtu.be/yASa7PF_ac0

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Salaam,

Some cite also this example among others about "elision / alhadhf / الحذف / " of a letter.

1897 فما اسطعوا ان يظهروه وما استطعوا له نقبا

So they were not able to scale it / fama istta3o an yadhharohu / فما اسطعوا ان يظهروه

nor were they able to pierce it / wama istatta3o lahu naqban / وما استطعوا له نقبا

• easier to scale (elision of ta / ت ) than to pierce.

source

Arabic https//youtu.be/0DgbZeJb3jU

From source at 121 min --> norm / origin / al-asl / الأصل istatta3o / استطعوا

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Salaam,

Peace..

It's a good thread.. Authenticity is key before having faith on it... Isn't it? When God said PRESERVE IT... Then we should deduce what is it? Is it physical Quran what Mualhamed was reading? Cannot be right... We don't have it now... But only thing by preserving IT could be the same thing what God delivered... Strangely God didn't give the responsibility to his Messenger.. Coz messenger won't live forever... So those who deserve in the future needs to refer exact words what was revealed and what is preserved... Of course... Any available copies of so called quran copies can be destroyed burned and humiliated... No one stops.. That we see by our naked eyes... Even in numerical phenomena threads people like ibn or NWQ brings claiming oldest copies... But carefully notice most of those are torn and most words not legible most missing from the page... So it is not what God promised to preserve... Can't be right? But somehow we have a Quran that we approach... To know we are approaching the right persevered book then there must be password protected... This password is key... That's numerical phenomena... Otherwise why should I approach half gnawed pieces of paper.. Is that what God claim preserve... Human will preserve better than that?

...

Peace jkhan,

As you cited me, see my understanding about the preservation of the Quran

....

I think that the particular spelling of some words in the Quran we have today is not inconsistent, it is for a purpose and in time the purpose will be revealed by God.

Like the example of the word Ibraheem , spelled without Ya ي in chapter 2 and spelled with Ya ي in the rest of the Quran.

There is no logique in saying that the scribes changed the spelling of the word Ibraheem only in chapter 2 and not in the rest of the Quran, they must have had a source for these particular spellings.

Cautious when saying "inconsistent" about the current manuscript especially when in condradiction with Quran veses referring to the the preservation of the Quran by God.

Salaam,

Peace jkhan,

• Not agree when for example, they reject verses (9128-129) or add an initial letter ( an extra "Nun" in 681 ) to obtain a desired result, I think that this would contradict with the preservation of the Quran.

e.g.

159
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/9/

4141-42
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/41/
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/42/

5677-78
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/77/
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/56/78/

7517-18-19
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/17/
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/18/
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/75/19/

8521 -22
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/21/
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/85/22/

...

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Salaam,

peace,

Quote

I think that when his son said ... you will find me, if God willed, of the patient ones. / ... satajiduni, in sha'a Allahu, mina alssabireena,
refers to the MOMENT ( if3al ma tu amru i.e when Abraham would do what he saw in his dream),
and NOT AFTER if3al ma tu amru.

if3al ma tu amru do what you order in the present,
Abraham's vision He did not say I was ordered to do.

Peace Houriya,

When his son said "if3al ma tu amru", what was he referring to?

Salaam,

peace ibn_a,

What I said refers to AFTER (and immediately after) he had enacted the vision, hence my use of "said" not "says". Not at the moment (i.e. in the process of doing) or was about to enact. That's the difference.

...

...
*Arabic "sa" is a prefixed particle (i.e. coming before the verb "find me&quot indicating action in the future. The obvious problem for the conventional understanding is how can one be of the patient ones after having been sacrificed/killed?
....
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Peace Wakas,

Adapted my previous comment, but still don't see an issue about "Sa" / سَ

The conventional understanding

I think that when his son said ... you will find me, if God willed, of the patient ones. / ... satajiduni, in sha'a Allahu, mina alssabireena,
refers to the MOMENT ( if3al ma tu amru i.e when Abraham would do what he saw in his dream),
and NOT AFTER if3al ma tu amru.

If patience refers to AFTER, then of course there would be a problem with the conventional understanding,
but if patience refers to the MOMENT, then I dont think there is an issue.

Unless the Arabic language rules don't allow that it could be understood that way ( i.e. the conventional understanding).

...

All you or anyone needs to do is bring one example from the over 100 uses of "sa" in Quran that matches with whatever you/anyone takes it to mean in this Abraham story. jkhan provided one example but issue is it depends on how you interpret that story, if it is taken as is commonly taken then it fails as an example.

What I'm asking is not difficult, but it seems getting an answer to my questions is proving difficult.

I don't know if there is an appropriate example, there could be, maybe some one knows about an example.
If there is no example, what do you think that it could mean for the Abraham leaving scenario and for the conventional understanding?

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Salaam,

Because of the sentence structure negation and then exception. Ma and La structure. Verb is in Indicative Mood; covering present and future timeline. Subject of a verb needs to be specified. Qaleel is just quantification noun.

Peace Mazhar,

Thanks for taking time to answer,
I am familiar with basic Arabic, less with grammar rules.

Do the grammar rules also allow for
ما يعلمهم الا قليل to mean "Not knows them except few",

like others have translated, or are they wrong, and of course both statements cannot be true.

https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/22/default.htm

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Salaam,

peace ibn_a,

That's a decent point and yes it could imply that. We'd have to research all similar occurrences to be sure.

It could be argued when Abraham said goodbye and left he found his son to be patient AND he was later given news of his son as a prophet implying he was of the righteous and thus of the patient ones.

However the evidence is in favour of the following point

3. The future particle "sa" occurs over 100 times in Quran. Can you provide one example of usage which matches how you claim it is used here, i.e. what comes after particle "sa" refers to an ongoing future activity that occurs prior to what came before particle "sa"?
   Let me clarify, here is structure of the Arabic ABC <future particle sa> XYZ
   My view is XYZ occurs in the future, i.e. after ABC.Your view is XYZ occurs prior to ABC or XYZ occurs until ABC takes place.

Which means that if someone can come up with an explanation that fits better, bearing in mind the above, then I'm all ears. At the moment I don't see any better alternative.

boldmine

...
*Arabic "sa" is a prefixed particle (i.e. coming before the verb "find me&quot indicating action in the future. The obvious problem for the conventional understanding is how can one be of the patient ones after having been sacrificed/killed?
....
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Peace Wakas,

If I fully understand what you mean, I don't see an issue about "Sa" / سَ

I think that when his son said ... you will find me, if God willed, of the patient ones. / ... satajiduni, in sha'a Allahu, mina alssabireena.
has not necessarily to be after, but could refer to the moment ( if3al ma tu amru ) i.e.
when Abraham would do what he saw in his dream, and like you said in the first part of your comment

...when Abraham said goodbye and left he found his son to be patient AND...

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Salaam,

Salaam,

Qiraa'a ( reading ) Hichaam an ibn Amer.
رواية هشام عن ابن عامر

Chapter 2 " IBRAHAAMA" ابرهم

Audio

http//dl.islamweb.net/audiopath/Audio3/quran/MeftahAlstunai/HishamIbnAmer/002.mp3

04151 ---------> 04752

Chapter 2 verse 124 to verse 140, you will hear 11 occurrences of " IBRAHAAMA" ابرهم

In the rest of the Quran " IBRAHEEMA" ابرهيم

Example chapter 87

Audio

http//dl.islamweb.net/audiopath/Audio3/quran/MeftahAlstunai/HishamIbnAmer/087.mp3

132

you will hear " IBRAHEEMA" ابرهيم

The link does not work anymore, new link here

Qiraa'a ( reading ) Hichaam from ibn Amer. رواية هشام عن ابن عامر

Chapter 2 سورة البقرة " IBRAHAAM" ابرهم

Audio

https//audio.islamweb.net/audio/index.php?page=souraview&qid=1552&rid=26

4148 ------> 4752

Chapter 2 verse 124 to verse 140, you will hear 11 occurrences of " IBRAHAAM" ابرهم

---

In the rest of the Quran " IBRAHEEM" ابرهيم

Example chapter 3 سورة آل عمران

Audio

https//audio.islamweb.net/audio/index.php?page=souraview&qid=1552&rid=26

2000 -------> 2125

Chapter 3 verse 65 to verse 68, you will hear 3 occurrences of " IBRAHEEM " ابرهيم

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Salaam,

Thanks.

It helped me immediately detect omission in my parsing into sentences. They are two separate sentences. Second not about number.

سَيَقُولُونَ ثَلٟثَةٚ رَّابِعُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ

People will keep saying that they were three in number and fourth companion of them was their dog —

وَيَقُولُونَ خَـمْسَةٚ سَادِسُهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْ رَجْـمَاۢبِٱلْغَيْبِۖ

And others will say that they were five in number and sixth companion of them was their dog, hurling imaginary thoughts —

وَيَقُولُونَ سَبْعَةٚ وَثَامِنُـهُـمْ كَلْبُـهُـمْۚ

And yet others will say that they were seven in number and eighth companion was their dog.

قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم

You the Messenger pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the exact number of them".

مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ

Since except a small segment, people do not know them —
فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .1822٢٢

Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point and nor you should enquire about them from any one of them.

Peace Mazhar,

Agree that ما يعلمهم الا قليل does not refer to بعدتهم , but to them,
otherwise I think it would say يعلمها

but why do you conclude that ما يعلمهم الا قليل means

"Since except a small segment, people do not know them".

Could you explain what other translators missed ?

https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/22/

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Salaam,

... (you will)*find me, if God willed, of the patient ones.
.....

http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Peace Wakas,

ستجدني ان شا الله من الصبرين ...

... satajiduni, in sha'a Allahu, mina alssabireena.

... you will find me, if God willed, of the patient ones.

• Doesn't that imply that

Abraham will experience / observe his son's patience? ( i.e. no separation?)

His son did not say for example I will be, if God willed, of the patient ones.

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Salaam,

Peace Mazhar,

Why did you go against all translators?
https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/22/default.htm

http//haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-5Part9Sura15-18.htm
https//i.imgur.com/Lhkk7jo.png

Salaam,

Peace Mazhar,

I can understand your argument for relating Al raqim الرقيم to Petra, because of the resemblance of its original name "Reqem or Raqmu".
Do you consider also other possible meanings for Al raqim الرقيم ?

قُل رَّبِّـى أَعْلَمُ بِعِدَّتِـهِـم

You the Messenger pronounce, "My Sustainer Lord knows most certainly the exact number of them".

In the next sentence the information and advice is for the Messenger

مَّا يَعْلَمُهُـمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٚۗ

Since except a small segment, people do not know them —
فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيـهِـمْ إِلَّا مِرَآءٙ ظَٟهِرٙا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيـهِـم مِّنْـهُـمْ أَحَدٙا .1822٢٢
Therefore, you should not enter into controversy about them except the evidently visible point and nor you should enquire about them from any one of them.

This information advice does not refer about بِعِدَّتِـهِـم.

... مَّا يَعْلَمُهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلٌ ...

Shouldn't it be like that

1822 ...Only a few know about them...

https//www.islamawakened.com/quran/18/22/

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Salaam,

Peace Wakas,

Do you consider that there is nothing more to add to the discussion about "fidya"?

Salaam,

Peace....... .....

Look brother.... There is a truth and that's One...

It would have been appropriate had you answered the matter we were discussing which is (Min) or (Bi) ... That was your concern so I involved... Now you skipped it and jumped to another.. Fine... Never mind...
Brother we can't alter words of Quran... First let's know that and keep reminding... God used words so let's approach meaning for it... As God says this Quran is in pure Arabic and further easy to understand.... Let's find the pure Arabic and make things easy...
To use Najjainahu.. The incident was not torture or without the willingness and acceptance of son Ismail... But both agreed and surrendered... There is nothing to SAVE.... Pls try to understand before raise questions with simple logic.. God used the perfect word... And try to fit your understanding accordingly. .. If anyone misunderstand the incident to be separation or etc other than slaughter then use logic whether SEPRATION fit for the incident.. That I negated in all my answers but I didn't receive any positive concrete response... Otherwise I would've definitely taken into, consideration. It's not such that I deny all others against my view... Coz God knows I look for guidance with clarity....

Peace jkhan,

My intention was not to skip or jump , but to add some information to my previous post, as you can see I quoted my previous post.(maybe "najjaynahu" was not a good example)
Not my intention to alter , as you said the words of God are precise.
Trying to explain that "fidya" has the sense of exchange.

• An example from Lane's Lexicon ( read in context of 37107 and 2229)

http//arabiclexicon.hawramani.com/search/%D9%81%D8%AF%D9%8A?cat=50

b3 وَــفَدَيْــنَاهُ بِذِبْحٍ means And we made an animal prepared for sacrifice to be a ransom for him, and freed him from slaughter. (T, TA.)

b4 فَدَتْ نَفْسَهَا مِنْ زَوْجِهَا and ↓ افتدت mean She gave property to her husband so that she became free from him by divorce. (Msb, TA.)

This was also said by other members

...

8.) please explain why Quran describes the sacrifice/dhibhin in 37107 as great/mighty/azeem?
Jkhan quotes "disastrous/great(great in the bad aspect) sacrifice", "something of unpleasant, evil oriented Azeem…Same way God absolutely delivered Abraham’s Son form a Azeem (Great) grievous Sacrifice.", "He was ransomed of a Horrible Sacrifice "

Your interpretation fails according to the Arabic "exchange/ransom" means to swap A with/for B, i.e. swap son for/with something else, NOT save him from something. Simply ask yourself what was the son replaced with? Then let us know.

...

...
=> "reeemed" = Ibn Faris says it means to give a thing in exchange of another, in order to save it (like a ransom), to protect it or to liberate it (as in 2184 - no siyam in exchange of feeding a poor)
...

Root ف د ى needs to be studied. The instrument by which one is ransomed or released/absolved of some obligation, which may be forced one or voluntarily undertaken, it is mentioned by preposition Bi.

This Root occurs 13 times. See all ayahs

http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/(1093).htm

والله اعلم
Allah knows best.