The "lie" was completely transparent. Don't skirt the analogy, if I smashed your room and left those keys, and told you that they did it, who do you think did it?

No matter how transparent that lie was it was still a lie!

You can believe opinions or believe the facts given in the Quran it is entirely up to you..

The definition of Lie is false statement made with intention of deceiving. That's exactly what Abrahim did;

He said to his father and his people, "What are these statues to which you are devoting yourselves?"

They said, "We found our parents worshiping them."

He said, "Indeed, you and your parents have gone totally astray."

They said, "Are you telling us the truth, or are you playing?"

He said, "Your only Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, who created them. This is the testimony to which I bear witness.

"I swear by GOD, I have a plan to deal with your statues, as soon as you leave."

He broke them into pieces, except for a big one, that they may refer to it.

They said, "Whoever did this to our gods is really a transgressor."

They said, "We heard a youth threaten them; he is called Abraham."

They said, "Bring him before the eyes of all the people, that they may bear witness."

They said, "Did you do this to our gods, O Abraham?"

Abraham Proves His Point

He said, "It is that big one who did it. Go ask them, if they can speak."

They were taken aback, and said to themselves, "Indeed, you are the ones who have been transgressing."

I have to rethink, his lie was transparent as glass. I forgot the context when I said he lied, but if I smashed up your room and keyboard, as Ayman said, and left the 1 and 9 keys on only, then told you it was the keyboard, ask it who did it, would you believe it?

You are just trying to make excuses for Abrahim. The fact is he lied, no matter what the reason is.

You are saying that "reason justifies the means", this is precisely what the Terrorists all around the world are using as an excuse to blow up innocent people.

Abrahim had choice, he could have said I did it, but he did not, he said the "Big one did it", it is beside the point why he did it, he still lied.

Do not be influenced by "reason justifies the means", lie is always a lie, and it does not justify the means..

Look up the definition of 'saints'. It's more aligned with christianity and is kin to idolatry.

I understand Rashad Khalifa's short comings and I am also familiar with his successes. And I believe the translation of this verse 1941 is his success and he is spot on.

Saint also means a person having lived a life of holiness and exceptional virtue. And this is the only reason the word "Saint" could have been used in this verse by Rashad. The usage of word "Saint" is in with line with the following verse, and Rashad did exceptionaly well in doing what he did ie spreading message to Christians, Jews, and converts..

Unity of All Submitters

Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

Nowhere in al-quran does siddiq or its derivatives mean 'saint'

The appropriate definition of siddiqan is

one who is true and sincere or one who speaks the truth

Actually study the words of al-quran instead of insisting on replacing hadeeth with RK's translation

I will go along with "true and sincere", are not saints "true and sincere"??

I will not go with "man of Trurth" because once in Abrahim's life he had to lie under opression.. None the less he lied. There are no contridictions in the Quran, if you believe that Abrahim was always true then you are believing Hadith..

Rashad Khalifa was the messenger of the covenant, he must have been inspired to translate the verse in such a way.. Many more translations are also translated this way therefore he could not have been wrong..

Brother this is very casual and irresponsible manner of translating the verses of Quran and reflects nothing but a preconceived notion and understanding of the event imprinted on the memory.

This is your perception what Sydena Ibrahim alaihissalm had told the managers of statues. But what was their perception about the statement of Sydena Ibrahim alahissalam is evident from their confessional statement

You O Ibrahim had known it yesterday night that they cannot speak.

too loudly negates the story of Bukhari and others.

Muzhar,

Basically you are saying "the reason justifies the mean" and I am saying opposite of that ie lieing is lieing no matter how and I confirmed this with Quran. Another confirmation is that no where in the Quran Abrahim is proclaimed to be Honest (either honest messenger or prophet) why because this is the book of truth and Abrahim was less then honest when he lied

Basing on your Hadith ridden idea that "the reason justifies the mean", don't you think the Hadith is misleading many, ie the Terrorists are also adopting this attitude ie there reason is that it is Jahad (reason), and any atrasity (means)is justifiable because of it.

This is one of the reason why we are only encouraged to follow the Quran;

Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things GOD has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which Hadith, beside this, do they believe in?

The Quran is All We Need

In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated Hadith; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe.

Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of GOD without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.

The Best Hadith

GOD has revealed herein the best Hadith; a book that is consistent, and points out both ways (to Heaven and Hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for GOD's message. Such is GOD's guidance; He bestows it upon whoever wills (to be guided). As for those sent astray by GOD, nothing can guide them.

Which Hadith?*

These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?

Regards

The verse is
1941

Which word in the verse you have translated as "Saint" ?

This translation is RK, I think Sudakeena is translated as "Saint", as far as I know, Truth is Alhuque which is not mentioned in this verse.

019041
YUSUFALI (Also mention in the Book (the story of) Abraham He was a man of Truth a prophet.

Surely your translation for 1941 is incorrect, it is ;

Mention in the scripture Abraham; he was a saint, a prophet.

Also Abrahim did lie Abraham Proves His Point

He said, "It is that big one who did it. Go ask them, if they can speak."

However, he broke the statues..

How do you explain that..

Salaam OPF,

The rhetoric he used is still a lie, per se. Are you saying it was an admission of guilt?

I agree with that.

God's plan has no deception. Misguidance, yes, but deception, no -479.

And I totally agree with this;

They commit a gross sin, then say, "We found our parents doing this, and GOD has commanded us to do it." Say, "GOD never advocates sin. Are you saying about GOD what you do not know?"

Kind Regards

peace all

in some circumstances we are allowed to hide our believes - which is to lie

16-106 Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.

Concerning abraham, i wouldn't say he was lying, imo its irony. actually according to the verse above he had authorization to lie in this case, he clearly was in danger. but abraham was stronger than that - one of the reasons he was a prophet i guess and not just one of us...

lk

Thank's lk, this is more in line with what I am thinking as well..

peace all

Well explained bro Ayman.

4135 O you who believe, stand with justice as witnesses to God, even if against yourselves, or the parents or the relatives. Even if he be rich or poor, God is more worthy of them, so do not follow your desires from being just. And if you twist or turn away, then God is Expert over what you do.

You can't even lie for yourself, your parents, or your relatives.

We are encouraged not to lie, however, where does it catogaricaly ban us from lieing in the Quran, no where, because if it did then that would have been contridiction to prophets who lied, and this is not possible.

242 And do not confound the truth with falsehood, nor keep the truth secret while you know.

Confound means to confuse or to throw into disorder.

So when it says And do not confound the truth.. Is this truth specific or general.. To clarify this when we take the gv of Quran 382 and concatenate with the chapter and verse above the number is completely multiple of 19. This proves that the Truth above is the Quran and when it says nor keep the truth secret, it is talking about disbelievers who hide the truth in the Quran to keep their face and reputation a well known fact..

382 2 42 = 20118 x 19 or 2235 / 3 Position 3 clarifies and confirms attribute to an entity, the entity above is Quran and attribute which clarifies is the Truth..

Therefore 242 is not not a general statement telling believers not to lie but a specific statement telling us not to hide truth in the Quran..

Regards

Please don't be so silly as to think Allah leaves out very basic commandments in his quran.

Moses vs Pharaoh

Pharaoh said, "Let me kill Moses, and let him implore his Lord. I worry lest he corrupts your religion, or spreads evil throughout the land."

Moses said, "I seek refuge in my Lord and your Lord, from every arrogant one who does not believe in the Day of Reckoning."

God Guides Not the Liars

A believing man among Pharaoh's people, who was concealing his belief, said, "How can you kill a man just for saying, `My Lord is GOD,' and he has shown you clear proofs from your Lord? If he is a liar, that is his problem, and if he is truthful, you benefit from his promises. Surely, GOD does not guide any transgressor, liar.

OPF,

My argument is that there is no contridiction in the Quran then why does prophets lied in those two circumstances, and I am sticking with my argument, that lieing is not totally forbidden for a believer, because under extreme circumstances like oppression one can lie like I proved above.

Now regarding (402 and ..Surely, GOD does not guide any transgressor, liar.. The word surley here makes me think that this new believer was not sure, he was a new believer and he was not familiar with all the laws thus the word "Surley" used above.. Therefore this statement cannot be taken as Gospal..

Regards

3370 O you who believe, be aware of God and speak only the truth.

Salaam Explorer,

I am afraid I would dispute with your translation;

O you who believe, reverence GOD and utter only the correct utterances.

Regards

So if I want to find out if Moses did a murder under oppression then can I do this?

935+40 = 975 (not divisible by 19).

2040 "That your sister should follow, and say "Shall I guide you to a person who will nurse him" Thus We returned you to your mother, so that she may be pleased and not be sad. And you killed a person, but We saved you from harm and We tested you greatly. So it was that you stayed with the people of Midyan for many years, then you came here by fate O Moses."

Salaam Explorer,

I believe Moses killed because of his anger, not opression. The code I have presented is for lieing. Thus the two verses. The reason I did that was because I could not found complete answer to why the prophets lied, like you I believed lieing was a big sin. 7431, point 4 RK's QT says that the miracle of 19 removes traces of doubt. Therefore I used this method to establish that under oppression one can lie. Why did I use "Oppression" as a triger, this was because it says somewhere in the Quran that Opression is worse then murder, hense I used this word for my code.

Now about Moses and him killing a man, what doubts do you have about this incidence and why. To me it was an accident Moses did not realise how strong he was etc, and the verses explain all the circumstances very clearly thus there is no need for the code. Hence the reason it is not divisible by 19.

Regards

Peace ijaz

there sure must be a great difference between you and me. You are way too perfect!

lk

Life is serious, get serious, not every thing is a joke!!

&

Peace ijaz

it's intention that counts and if i had many laughs in this lowly life i never intended to mock god

lk

Salaam Elke,

I think that is the difference between you and me, I do not have a laugh on my elders or God just out of respect, intentionaly or unintentionaly. God is way to powerfull, The Most Gracious..

Regards

3] Respect other users of the forum. Language and/or material of vulgarity, obscenity, harassment, profanity or insulting nature, whether it is direct or suggested, will NOT be tolerated. Any messages containing such language or material will be moved to the trash section or deleted, without notice and may result in disciplinary action being taken against the offending member.

With all due respect I have heard more bad language by other members on this forum, that is the reason I resorted to this behaviour, I have been called "Idiot" many times by Ayman, but you did not say anything, you gave me impression that it was normal to behave this way, and that the rules me little or nothing..

It seems like the rules only work under certain circumstances..

Kind Regards

Me too yay

25 - 9 - 1965

2+5=7 - 9 - 1+9+6+5=21=2+1=3

7+9+3= 19

Yes i too can be considered as a messenger...note that i realized this on my 42 b-day, which is today- so please restrain from insulting me

Just to say that manipulating numbers in order to come to a certain conclusion just as biased interpretations of what the number can mean are a very dangerous playground.

peace
lk

And if we delay the retribution they have incurred - for we reserve it for a specific community - they say, "What is keeping Him?" In fact, once it comes to them, nothing can stop it, and their mocking will come back to haunt them.

Don't scatter your beautiful angugae not just yet

It is noteworthy that the date of this fulfillment of the prophets' covenant was Zul-Hijja 3, 1391. If we add the month (12), plus the day (3), plus the year (1391), we get a total of 1406, 19x74. Sura 74 is where the Quran's common denominator, the number 19, is mentioned. Note that the number 1406 is also the number of years from the revelation of the Quran to the revelation of its miracle (Appendix 1).

Are you thick or some thing, where are the digits in a year have been added. Month, day and year are entities in its own right, it is perfectly feasable to add these.. brickwall

Really?

I think your nickers are in a twist, where am I adding digits of the year..