Peace,

It is clear that this is going nowhere. I came for answers and honestly feel that they are not being addressed. I hope the ayat speak for themselves, not some gross mistranslation. Here I have seen one claim following the Prophet is shirk, another lie about the meaning of Kalam Allah, and other saddening things. I am leaving this discussion as it is spiritually dead. Reading around I have seen that many in this forum don't even prostrate to Allah! Those that think consuming alcohol is fine, etc.

Indeed you are cut off from much good. Yet you think you, a tiny fraction of mankind, are guided and we traditional Muslims are in misguidance! Not a single descendent of the Prophet is from your ranks. Think on that. Not a single one. Where are your scholars?

I am now leaving this discussion for ever. Wallahi alhamdu lillah that I am a Sunni Muslim with an established connection to the Prophet!

You shall recite what is revealed to you of your Lord's scripture. Nothing shall abrogate His words, and you shall not find any other source beside it
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• This does not translate as you have put it. Which words from the ayah do you take to mean 'any other source beside it?' Why? Seek forgiveness from Allah for twisting the meaning of His Words for your own nafs.

What is wrong with your logic? * Do you have another book to uphold? * In it, do you find anything you want?
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• Where is the word 'logic' in this ayah? Where is 'another' and 'to behold?' Stop messing with Kalam Allah! Do you know any Arabic at all?

The science of hadith was established to defend and preserve the Prophet's Sunnah. Look into it. It is one of the greatest intellectual achievements in human history. If you had any grounding in hadith you would know that we say that hadith can never abrogate the Qur'an. Hadith are rejected if they oppose the Qur'an. Very few indeed are those who argued otherwise.

A revelation from the Lord of the universe * Had he uttered any other teachings * We would have punished him * We would have stopped the revelations to him
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• Where does it say 'teachings' or 'punished' or 'stopped revelations'? Where did you get these translations from. It is clear you are not aware of what you are saying. Do you know Arabic? The same goes for the rest of what you mistranslate or misrepresent from Allah.

Has anyone on this forum ever had any formal or traditional instruction in Islam? Have any ever been scholars or students of knowledge (learning from teachers as part of a chain to the Prophet)? Is there anyone here from the Prophet's family, with an unbroken chain to their grandfather, the Beloved of Allah? Where is your connection to the Prophet?

Oh wait, there is a verse that tells us who has 'fussilat' the quran

111 ALR. A book whose signs have been ascertained, then detailed, from One who is Wise, Ever-aware.

That should tell you who is the one detailing and explaining the quran.

The next ayat continues with what exactly Allah has expounded

Tawhid is clearly established in the Qur'an by Allah and the Prophet did not need to elaborate. The Qur'an is full of it. It is the single most important message of the Qur'an and Allah made sure that there would be no doubt about it. All Prophets came with it and Tawhid has never changed, although ahkam have. The Qur'an is the Majestic Book of universals. The Sunnah covers particulars that need clarifying. Proof of this is Salah and Hajj and Zakat. Without hadith you don't know how to do it. You even reject the shahadah from what I have seen so far on this forum. That is the reason why Allah commands us to follow the Prophet in numerous ayat. Why would Allah repeat this on many occasions if otherwise?

I must say that, although I admire your (all of you) dedication to the Qur'an, I lament your abandoning the Prophet and his Sunnah. No points raised here have convinced me that I should abandon the great blessings that are contained in the Sunnah.

Allah said ''. It does not means 'source of law.' He also said ' '. Now then, mufassal is maf'ul (passive participle). Who then, other than the Beloved, is the active participle? Your Rabb tells you

Indeed, Allah repeatedly tells us to follow the Beloved in addition to Him. I posted many ayat about that if you care to read.

What are your sources for the claims you make about the early generations? Is it other than traditional reports, narrated by traditionalists, both of which you reject?

One of the greatest evidences for me is that not a single member of Ahl al-Bayt is from among you, to my knowledge. However, the Prophet's family are well-known among the Sunnis and Shi'a. In addition they are some of the most ardent supporters of the Sunnah. Imam al-Shafi'i is regarded as Nasr al-Sunnah and the second mujaddid (you don't believe in tajdeed, I know) because he re-established the primacy of the Prophet's right over us after some had lost it. He used the same ayat I am using the establish this and the majority of the ummah agreed and followed this path. I could digress and offer the ayat about sticking to the community and asking the people of knowledge but that would digress.

Your arguments thus far as not convincing at all. Use ayat of the Qur'an the address ayat. Don't use traditionalist reports if you don't accept them yourself. If you believe all of them are lies against the Beloved why wouldn't they lie about the Sahabah and Salaf? Rather use your Quranite sources, if you have any. The Sahabah, in our view, recognised the dangers of fabrication and their response was the narrate, en masse (mutawatir), about the threats of lying about the Beloved. Some of them, such as Ibn Mas'ud, even refrained from narrating due to fear of mis-transmitting a single word, even if the meaning was correct.

Wasalam,

Isa

Wa 'alaykum us-salam,

'Allah (swt) has mentioned many Messengers and Prophets, revelations and books etc. They served their purpose. His duty was but to deliver the message, to deliver the warning, and he (sa) did.'

• You didn't answer the question. Allah asks us to follow the Beloved specifically. Why mention this numerous times if we should only follow the Qur'an?

'likewise Sunni Muhaditheen did not accept narrators from Jahmiyyah, Mu'tazilah, Shi'a or Khawarij.'

• Another digression. Also this is not true. Please provide your evidence for this claim. I don't want to digress too much.

'The Quran is a book. The Messenger of Allah (sa) is the one who Allah (swt) used to spread the message of that book. Thus he (sa) is appreciated for that, but not worshiped as a diety besides Allah (swt) by mimicking his every move - which is shirk. When you roll up your pants, sit and eat and bathe like him (sa) ... that is shirk in our eyes.'

• This is a massive statement. You don't even prefix or suffix it with 'alleged' and make a direct revelation of your state. Allah commands you to follow him and you say, clearly, that following him is shirk! Please retract your statement or at least privately repent.

'He was a good example for the seventh century.'

• This also reveals your state. So this is why you reject the Sunnah?

'Not only that but the Prophet (sa) forbade his followers from documenting any Hadith and told them only to write down the Quran - this is according to your Ahadith.'

• Also according to 'our' ahadith he gave permission for it to be documented. How can you use an evidence that you don't understand?

Not once did you use the Qur'an to answer my questions. You also digressed on a few points. Most grave of all you declared following the Sunnah (without modification) as shirk!

Please nobody make comments such as this. I regret opening this discussion if it will lead to such things. Please stick to the topic and address the ayat with ayat. We all accept the Qur'an insha'Allah.

I do need guidance, as do all of us. I came here seeking it. If that offends you I apologise. Indeed Iblis was cast out due to his wretched statement prefixed with 'I'. The forums are massive and go back years. I don't have the time to go through it all. If nobody wants to respond directly then that is fine. In all honesty the responses so far have already given me an indication that I don't belong here. I am deeply disturbed by the idea that following the Beloved is shirk in someone's opinion. My heart trembles at the statement. I don't seek to argue or open controversy. Please close down the discussion and delete my initial post and all responses.

May Allah guide us all to the truth. Allah send peace and blessings upon Muhammad and his family.

Wasalam,

Isa

Wa 'alaykum us-salam,

Apologies for the spam. I guess I am keen on an answer and didn't want to get missed. Perhaps the moderators could put it in the appropriate section as I wasn't sure where to put it. I just need these questions to be answered directly one at a time. Linking to other posts or sites will digress too much and may not directly answer the ayat and questions. One could paste responses if that is easier. But I need the questions addressed directly.

May Allah guide us all the the truth. Ameen.

Wasalam,

Isa

As-salamu 'alaykum,

This is an enquiry from a truth seeking student of knowledge. I am traditional Shafi'i Sunni, in the sense that I have studied formally with traditional scholars. This site and forum is very interesting and informative. I have found some useful resources here. However I have some questions that I would like to be addressed

Why would Allah mention the Messenger if we should only follow the Qur'an?

Allah tells us that His Beloved was the recipient so that he could expound it for us. Is this not the Sunnah?

What is this 'Hikmah' that the Beloved educates us with, in addition to the Qur'an? Is it not the Sunnah?

If the Prophetic guidance is restricted to the time of the sirah, how do you interpret his mercy for the universe and all existence?

Why is Allah referring to His Beloved as a a giver of glad tidings, and warner? Why not refer 'only' to the Qur'an?

Why would Allah mention His Beloved being a good example to follow in such a general sense without it being relevant to all?

From these ayat is it not clear that we should follow the Beloved in addition to the Qur'an?

Some more questions

How do you pray?

How many times do you pray?

How many rakat do you pray?

When do you pray?

How much do we give for zakat and how often do we spend it?

How do you do Hajj? What are the rites?

Can we consume alcohol? How do we know the chronology of the ayat on the topic?

What do you say of the Sahifah of Hammam b. Munabbih? He was a student of Abu Hurayrah and the manuscript dates to his time.

Why weren't the early Muslims 'Qur'an ONLY?' The Sahabah, including 'Umar, narrated hadith once they were sure the Qur'an was firmly established among the people. The followed Prophetic teachings in addition to the Qur'an and passed these on the following generations. Why isn't there a Qur'an only group with an unbroken chain back to the Prophet? Why has it only emerged in the wake on colonialism?

If you have problems with hadith, generally or specific, why don't you pursue the study and point out in detail what is wrong with it? By rejecting hadith you are missing out on a great bounty. Many are the beautiful words of guidance from the Beloved.

Please answer all of these questions directly. No circumnavigating please. No linking other posts and sites either please. Also no personal attacks, as seems common here. I only seek convincing answers to each ayah and question. May Allah guide us all to the straight way.

Wasalam,

Isa