Well, people like magic and fantasy for the escapism. It's fiction, so it doesn't really matter. I like supernatural stories but would never believe in them, irl. If you start sacrificing babies to Beelzebub, it could be a problem. Otherwise, it's fine. As for magic in The Quran, i don't read them as literal stories, personally.

Are you saying there is no decision involved in having to decide (with your free will) - or prove - that Satan is wrong?

Yes, of course, there is free will involved. Why wouldn't there be free will involved? Whatever happened doesn't really matter, our choices define us--we are fully in control of such choices.

You quoted what seemed like an response to my suggestion that humans have free will to choose to follow Satan and his army of enthusiastic follower - or to not follow them.

that is correct.

free my boy speech he did nothing wrong.

I surely don't know your definition of hate speech.

A meme, duh.

Any speech that doesn't fit our worldview, i guess. Insulting language towards specific people isn't allowed anyway so i don't really get what the point is.

https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism

What is the Free Will to choose - without a choice?

This. Satan is like 'i am better than this human degenerate, let me prove it'
'ok, you can try.'

It's up to us to prove Satan wrong.

Anyway, I wonder, are the moderators ok with these posts that are against the Quran or Muslims or Islam?

Or is this an accepted strategy to drive more traffic through the portal.

hahahahaha 'strategy'. When in doubt, propagate a conspiracy, amirite? The mods have different stances on stuff, you'd be hard pressed to find three who agree on issues. Most of us are too busy to read everything. Also, we are very much against censorship. I agree that intellectual discourse is the best way but tbh i am really getting sick and tired of hearing all the violent acts in the world. What is my first reaction? pls dont be a Muslim, pls don't be a Muslim, and guess what? it's almost always someone who was a Muslim. So I do get it, in a way, but I don't think militant anti-Sunnism is the best course of action, either. I don't think we should try to alienate Sunnis, but from an ex-Sunni standpoint, i do understand how one would be frustrated at the world.

At any rate, if you think a post violates the rules, best course of action is to report the violation.

I think the 'ten' is metaphorical/sarcastic and is more geared towards the detractors of AQ. I am sure when The Messenger was revealing the message to others he had his skeptics and so on.

Another way to read it 'oh you think I am making it up? Cool. Write ten more like it then.'

Peace Jack, I'm confused.

If Satan promised immortality by eating the fruit, wouldn't that mean that they were already mortals?

Well Satan was lying, so what he was promising was the opposite i.e. they were immortals already and he turned them mortal by guiding them towards the tree. Adam/his mate, their way of being changed immediately after they ate from it. I wouldn't say I am entirely sure they were immortals, but it's just a theory to make sense of the story.

I must disagree. If they were already immortals, they wouldn't need the promise of immortality, would they?

I think the tree bore the fruit of Discord, given this ayah God then told them, "Get out of here all of you; you are each other's enemies." (20123)

Though I do agree with the tree being a warning rather than a test, because Allah already knew when He made Adam that he would live on Earth. It was pre-planned.

??Verily, I am going to place mankind generations after generations on earth.? They said ?Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, while we glorify You with praises and thanks and sanctify You.? God said ?I know that which you do not know.?? (Quran 230)

They may need the promise because they were naive and unaware of what they were. How would they know? Satan could tell them whatever he wanted and they'd be none the wiser. We've been told Satan lies/manipulates/makes promises. The reason why I think they were immortals is because of the descriptions that tell us that they didn't hunger etc and their state of consciousness was as such that they didn't know what they were and their bodies became aware to them as they started covering themselves with leaves soon as they ate. I am interested in understanding this state of being because the descriptions makes it sound other-worldly.

Re Metaphors

I agree that the story is metaphorical. But before we can interpret the story metaphorically we have to make sense of it literally.

Adam is us, literally meaning man. Fruit stands for temptation and the fact that we can't stand not knowing. If I tell you never go near x, you'll want to know why and go that place. We are curious beings (both good and bad). And temptation is the devil's tool. Fruit may also stand for impulse/hedonism. We are impulsive, emotional creatures and like a thing that feels good, the forbidden thing, even if it's bad for us. Another way to look at is all fruits are poison.

Interesting topic. I've been thinking about this kind of thing for a while. Might be all over the place so bear with me.

Let's forget 'God' for a moment. I think it's a name (common or proper) that has been put a lot of value on and has been put a lot of connotation to. So many attribute so much to God and yet the quran repeats 'are you saying about God what you do not know?'. It is obviously something we cannot know. Moses couldn't 'face' God (7143). It would be arrogant to think that any of us could. What he or she or it 'is' is something we cannot know and honestly it's irrelevant. Might be there is no 'entity' called God. Might be there is an energy (that thing inside of us that instructs us to make the right choice). When I do good I believe in God, it doesn't matter what I profess to say. Anyone can say they believe x,y,z.

Let's say that God doesn't exist and not in the way we perceive. Because I personally don't believe in an involving God that instructs men to act a certain way. I don't believe in a God that sits at a computer and event x or y happens. I don't think God has anything to do with the affairs of the world. God is a guide, the beacon of light, an energy we can all tap into. The initial source of all energy.

Whilst morality is subjective, yes. But I think most of us know that murder is wrong, lying and cheating is wrong and so on. You could say morality is taught perhaps, but empathy is ingrained in most of us. Of course, the self, selfishness, the ego gets in the way of it.

Anyway, back to the exercise. Humans are groupthinkers, first and foremost and they always need someone to tell them what to do. Let's look at the world. The populace follow their leaders (their Gods as it were) because most people are incapable of thinking on their own. The leaders use religion as a tool to fulfill their agenda, because that's what the people follow. There will always be a "God". There will always be war, violence, chaos. If God didn't exist, does it stop? No; man is a beast and obsessed with ego and conquering 'my land is better than your land', 'I need better weapons than your weapons'. If you eliminate religion or God, I don't think you stop this mentality from happening. Atheists feel oppressed and attack the religionists. Religionists feel attacked and attack atheists. How does believing in a God or no-God stop blood from being shed? Ego conquers all. Would people stop building bombs and fighting even if there was no God? hardly and that's rather naive to think so. The controllers, forces of nature (or angels if you prefer) prophecize this nature of man before man is even created (230).

I personally wish religions and dogmas didn't exist either, but the nature of man can't be helped. I think Atheism itself is a religion. It is not 'rational' to say that everything came from nothing. Science is not about conclusions. There are no 'answers' in science. That's dogma. Saying God doesn't exist definitely is illogical and unscientific, not to mention arrogant.

salaam,

If you believe free minds is a sect, what's your purpose here?

and thanks for re-joining our sect, btw. it's perfectly okay to admit you missed being part of our sect. I won't hold it against you.

I agree, edip and farouk are most definitely sects. Shame that they are clueless about that fact.

http//i.imgur.com/LalEaVA.jpg

I like sportsball.

Peace

Admin action has been taken.

It is advised that both members of this discussion thread remain strictly on topic, avoiding comments of a personal nature and making unsubstantiated claims etc.

This thread has now been re-opened.

I've always like the word dabba. It sounds satisfying when said. But Mazhar just killed my hopes of it having anything to do with anything else. I still think that it could refer to a living, intelligent and independent AI. We will get there one day, just watch. I'll wait.

Yeah some people like to dabba in preconceptions, numerology fetishes and wild ass red herrings , rather than truth. Yeah, I'll wait too, *op will surely deliver. Maybe if you throw your dell into an ocean, it will turn into a creature.

*metaphorical, you pedant!

Peace Jack.

" The creature" must have something to do with " People not certain about the revelation( last scripture)" Hence " the proof provided with the help of " Dabba". I did say it makes sense to me. Others, they have their own views/opinions...

Like I have my own view about 4141
4141 Those who have rejected the Koran s proof ( From this generation) have also rejected an honourable book.? (A message from your Creator with proof! and they only follow it partially.)

Peace.

Peace good logic,

Man you are going on some weird other-worldly tangents (are there creatures there, incidentally?)

You've not addressed why you came to that conclusion other than rk told you so. You are very welcome to your views, just don't expect to be taken seriously by any means.

If you are still hell bent on your view, do tell me what "revelation" encompasses according to the Quran. Is it limited to scripture?

Salaam,

I prefer this translation for verse 2782

2782 At the right time ( in the 22th Century, 2179!) the creature (benderiduioum - not yet invented - ) made from ( GOD s) created from earthly materials (and some materials from Pluto) will declare for them (jews and hindu's) that people are not certain about our revelations.? ( A non-mathematical proof that this scripture is from GOD - ABC code - aided by the help of a benderiduioum)

We have a winner! Good logic, everyone.

Peace good logic,

And the verses you've listed aren't exactly dealing with a change in translation to prove/show a point.

Oh. You mean to say he was off topic? Good logic, indeed.

Good logic, since you are a purveyor of "good logic", feel free to tell us about your studies regarding daaba, what a daaba is according to the Quran. But hey if you've taken khalifa as your main source, that's cool, too .
Good logic would suggest that we study subjects, ourselves (1736).
Show us your verification method, if you would be so kind. Thus far, you're not fooling anyone.

Peace,

Come on guys. Most of us want to have a serious discusssion leading to clarity. This current exchange feels incredibly unhealthy and a waste of energy?

Dawn.

Peace dawn,

How so ? The discussion seems pretty serious and fruitful the way I see it.

You're always welcome to show us how it's done. )

Assalamu alaikum All!

Need your help to understand how we can seek divine interventation in our lives...few months back i fell ill, iam undergoing the treatment but the illness has affected my physical appearance & mental peace as well. Iam in a state where apart from keeping faith & positive attitude i cannot do much to change my condition. But sometimes it is difficult to remain so hopefull & optimistic al the time. My question is does Dua/prayer help in changing one's condition or is everything a matter of cause & effect? Iam trying to keep myself busy in understanding Quran & trying to be a true & good 'muslim' .... is there any such thing as receiving healing through faith in 'Allah' ? Please, would be helpful to receive some motivation to remain hopeful of the future.

P.s request some members not to post irrelevant or 'trying to be witty' comments

Peace Nefertiti,

Sorry to hear about your situation, wish you all the best. I know it's hard, but stick to the positive attitude. Belief is everything. There have been cases where people have been cured by mere belief, just keep fighting. That is the point of praryer, it helps us be optimistic. Be positive always. Don't let your physical ailments bring you down. Find things to occupy your time, things that bring you peace and make you happy. Stay as busy as possible. Remember, the only person that exists is you. All the people in your life are mere caricatures in your play.

What have the doctors said?

Dua is not prayer and prayer is religious and has nothing to do with Islam.
What illness do you have? Some illnesses' cures are hidden by the sovereign Jinn (psychopaths)

Post your references from the Quran, going around saying ridiculous nonsense for attention will not suffice here.

Have you even actually studied what dua means in the quran? Or do you incessantly post everything from servant of light without study?

Frankly, anyone who claims that 'prayer' is not part of The quran or Islam hasn't read the book or studied it in any fashion. Because the notion, exegetically, is nonsensical.

lol @ jinn = psychopaths.

Again, have you even studied jinn for yourself? There are GOOD psychopaths??? Because there are good amongst the jinns.

So I am supposed to believe that a male personification created the world and controls it from the outside otherwise I have blind faith, got it.

Nice strawman argument. Wait, I thought you were so logical! Guess not.
Pro-tip nowhere is "God" elucidated as some "male diety". Have you actually studied the Quran, or do you just quote your gods ?

And yes my age is a barrier for learning. Who is gonna teach that to me? Where do I get the time to learn it? This is a flawed assumption, as you know nothing about me.

Your immaturity is quite evident. Quit acting like a spoiled child who wails his arms around like a goose every time things doesn't go his way , and mayhaps we'll reconsider.

To each his own, but "only accepting translations by Aidid Safar and Badar Kanwar" is simply ignorant, regardless whether or not you use your reason. See 3918. I also don't agree with many translations but I dont fully ignore/reject them. You outright rejected the translations I posted solely on the basis that they were not from the "great" and "enlightened" translations of Aidid and Badawar. And chill out. If you are right as you yourself assume, why get so mad and angry?

God, Allah, the Most High - all the great names belong to Him. I can call him God if I want. Go read your Aidid. Come back when you can argue reasonably.

Dude, don't be so ignorant--hajj clearly means ankle, just ask our renowned scholar Aidid.

In all seriousness, I've seen worse translations than his, I, however would take what he says with a heavy pinch of salt . He makes up grammar rules out of thin air, for one, and has a very inconsistent, rather fantastical methodology.

Peace Jafar
Well, Kaiokenred would be one of the youngest active members of the forum. Bravo to you Kaiokenred.
At least someone would be searching for God at such a young age......I wasn't
May God Almighty help you.

Moderators Do not discourage him. Do not evict him. What do you expect from a young kid?
Yes, trespasses might have occurred, but then again, our brains would be at a different stage of development. Be mindful of that.

Eh? So if a kid starts insulting your family, you'll buy him lunch?
We should have special rules for yunguns now ? Should we get into everybody's business and ask them how old they are and treat them accordingly ? Sorry, that's impractical and far from sage advice . He's been warned about this repeatedly, yet he continues to engage in really flagrant behavior (read doesn't care). And you are encouraging this kind of behavior? Arrogance at this age is very scary, quite honestly.
This is a forum dedicated to learning, not to throw feces at each other.

God forgives those who vow to change. Praying for those who have no interest in reforming is pretty useless, in my opinion. But, each his own, I guess.

Peace

Peace all,
I guess we can only see what the judge thinks now. And Ervin has got his answers. I believe he should be admired for putting his trust in God.

Yes, and admired for labeling all those who don't blindly support him as atheist, satan loving, kaafirs. This would be a trait of a self absorbed, egomaniac. There is only right way his way. What does the quran say about ego again?
Because, as we all know this is what True Muslims TM do. Somebody disagree with you? Just call them kaafirs.