peace,

By relying heavily on your logic presupposes your logic to be sound. Risky. An argument can be composed of many angles.

Unfortunately Mazhar has a habit of claiming something with no evidence. He often thinks a certain grammatical construct rules out this or that meaning when it doesn't. In any case it's irrelevant because let's look at what I actually wrote on www.Quran434.com

Note the word in red above.

So for sake of argument let's say according to your "logic" you have managed to rule out "judge" here and thereby use of courts etc and somehow thereby my understanding of 434, so let's assume we go with "arbiter" as the meaning of "hakaman" here. Tell us how my understanding of 434 fails now?

Well its not just my logic alone, its also the majority opinion as far as mainstream translations into English, and Sam Gerrans translation into English. As i said, the only other offering aside yours which I've seen render the word 'judges' is Dr Ghalis.

But even if the mainstream view was in your favor, yes, i personally would value a logically consistent interpretation over something which better fitted a personal linguistic argument, but causes numerous logical and practical problems.

I actually don't have a problem with the word judge except in the case where its shoehorned into a very specific, very dependent, minority opinion argument for retranslation and reinterpretation of a singular verse.

In a sense, im a judge of this conversation, you are too. We all are. I have no problem with judge in that sense, we are all judges.

But we aren't engaging with any particular legal system here, we aren't ruling on cases deciding matters which would benefit ourselves or our families from a ruling we would make, perverting the course of justice.

'cite' requires there to be someone to cite to, who's lawful role and application involves concerning himselves with the interpersonal relationships between husbands and wives even in 7th century tribal and village Arabia context, and that it makes sense that a husband would be invoking such an authority in his tribe or village, in the case he fears nushuz from his wife.

Corpus of the Grand Qur’ān - the Sustainer of truly living life

Translating Grand Qur’ān in the 21st century through Triplet Theory of Translation

http//haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-1.htm

So I'm reading here in this translation "Thereat, politely and lovingly advise them"

I'm just wondering if there are words there in the Arabic root etymologically corresponding to 'politely' and 'lovingly' and 'advising' in the case of what is seeming to correspond to فَعِظُوهُنَّ

And is there root etymological, word for word correspondence in the translation for "In response to any of aforesaid options given to you if they accepted your word; thereby, you should not pursue to find excuses against them." to the Arabic فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُـمْ فَلَا تَبْغُوا۟ عَلَيْـهِنَّ سَبِيلٙاۗ ?

Peace

Im willing to read your book translating the Quran into English.

I'm okay with how the thread has gone so far because these are important micro-issues although it's not really moving toward the big picture here as I see it and would have hoped. As a sidenote, I'm hoping to start a Youtube channel soon where I can expound more on these issues for anyone interested.

I guess my intentions and hopes with this thread were to open up a broader discussion about crime, disobedience to authority, and punishment in the light of Quranic guidance. Not everyone here may be ready for that or interested in it and hence focus on more sub-points.

I'm not saying I'm not interested in talking about 434 or other specific verses and going case by case, I'm just saying that my intention and my method of drawing together different verses illustrative of principles is not to disregard the benefit or necessity of 'getting into the weeds' so to speak on particular issues, but more to highlight the interconnectedness and consistency of the Quran when it comes to overarching principles.

So I guess I'll just throw out there for anyone interested where I'm sort of headed here and see if anyone is following me.

When it comes to authority this is a general principle that needs to be addressed. This is partly why the most interesting and profound part of 434 for me is not 'idriboo' but rather 'but if they obey you,'. Because if the object or goal of whatever these 3 steps are is a degree (not absolute) of 'obedience', that has profound implications as a principle for how a marriage is supposed to work on the basis of Quranic principles. It implies that the real issue here is disobedience/disloyalty/dishonesty. In the case of Zina, what actual content of the act of Zina is warranting the punishment of lashes? is it the consequences? If we could negate what we perceive as the harm associated with Zina, would punishment for Zina no longer be just?

I would contend that a person who is punished for Zina is mainly punished not for the harm, or the consequences of the act but for the disloyalty and dishonesty in their heart. Punishment for disloyalty in this life is a small taste of the punishment in the hereafter for disloyalty to god. The one who falsely accuses one of Zina (how common are false rape accusations today?) is almost as severely punished, for the same primary reason The disloyalty and rebellion in their heart.

But these principles go beyond marriage they really apply to every institution in society. What sort of institutions would we create for governance at the level of a state, or at the level of a family, for guidance, and for enjoining good and forbidding evil, if we were to truly study and understand what the Quran has to say about how human beings work and how society ought to function?

Traditionally, the 'tent-pole' or the pillar of the family is the father and the institution of the family under the guidance of a father forms a microcosm of a state, with its own internal jurisprudence and punishment for crimes and transgressions.

Everyone knows this even in cases where people grew up without being spanked. You didn't do your homework or you got home late or you were disobeying your parents when they said to clean your room, and there was some response or accountability for that transgression, maybe you had to do extra chores, maybe you had to clean the dishes or whatever it may be.

The family has its own internal frameworks and constitutions as a self-sufficient, building block for all societies.

Now if we're going to understand authority generally we should look at an often misused verse for understanding the Quran's position on authority as it often relates to sunni arguments and justification for sunnah and hadith 459 the "obedience verse"

"O you who believe! Obey God and obey the Messenger and those in authority (uli al-amr) among you. And if you differ among yourselves concerning any matter, refer it to God and the Messenger, if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better, and fairer in outcome."

Hamza Abdul Malik had a great point in one of his videos when he said Obey God and obey the messenger applied to the prophet Muhammad too. Prophet Muhammad had a messenger he had to obey, too. Jibreel. There's no good reason for believing that the prophet was exempt from this verse or that prophet Muhammad had to be obeyed in a special way different from any other prophet or messenger beyond his normal span of life and his natural role as leader and guide (as he himself was lead and guided by God) of a fledgling monotheist community.

My understanding is that in light of the Quran we are all free individual human beings who are able to enter into contracts and treaties at our own will and judgment, there is also an implicit social contract in a Quranically guided society just as there is in any society which establishes norms and expectations for behavior and custom. Such a society pre-emptively heavily invests in caring for the young and in socially beneficial policies, before, and sometimes without, asking or receiving any compensation for the societal cost of doing so upon those not yet ready, (children) or otherwise unable to pay back or contribute to society.

If we are to turn back on our heels or become of the munafiqun after entering contracts and treaties or enjoying the benefits of social prosperity of a Quranically guided society without giving back or fulfilling social contract, then we will of course come to meet the full force of breach of contract, which in certain cases can be severe.

Beyond that, any entity or institution which we are engaging is according to our free will, judgment and inclination. Whether it be a state or a marriage, we are able to abandon institutions and situations of subservience to authority insofar as those institutions have ceased to be righteous and internally consistent with their stated principles and values, and insofar as we proceed with Quranic principles in disengaging from these institutions.

I remember having discussions with my Sunni friends on the issue of emigration to a more religious, conservative society. I was told that it was more 'Islamic' or in alignment with the Sunnah to stay in a corrupt society and try to change it from within.

I wondered then why did prophet Muhammad peace be upon him leave with his followers to Medina? Why didn't he stay in Mecca and just be martyred while trying to change the society from within?

If we're supposed to obey authorities and obey governments regardless of their righteousness and merit as leaders, why didn't Muhammad obey the pagan authorities in mecca and do as the pagans did?

It seems too often that people prefer to rip singular verses out of context to support a singular, one-track argument-agenda that they've got going, than to holistically look at the whole book.

In the case of Sunnis/Shias or Christians justifying theocracy and other forms of authoritarianism, the Sunnis and Shias love 459 just as some of the Christians love Romans 13 1-2.

Despite the fact that in the Quran there's a verse that explicitly clarifies the matter

331-3

1. O Prophet! Fear God, and do not obey the unbelievers and the hypocrites. God is Knowledgeable and Wise.

2. And follow what is revealed to you from your Lord. God is fully aware of what you do.

3. And put your trust in God. God is enough as a trustee.

and a contextual understanding of the life of Jesus and even of many of the early martyrs and saints of the church clearly demonstrates that they did not unquestioningly obey authority. When those authorities put them on the path of misguidance and idolatry, they rebelled. The early Christians were martyred for not bending the knee and sacrificing to the Roman emperor and the gospel narrative itself recounts Jesus ignoring/refusing to answer Herod, king of the jews. Was that in subjection to worldly authority?

So to try to loop this back to everyone's favorite topic here let's ask

Can a righteous authority physically discipline those subject to their jurisdiction physically?

Muslims must say yes. You can't fence-sit on corporeal punishment. If you're going to say no you're going to have to explain 242. 242 isn't even an option, it's a prescription and If you're going to say beating or other forms of corporeal punishment is bad, primitive, backward etc for transgressions and disobedience, then you're taking issue with what god has prescribed for us in the case of Zina.

From what I've seen on this forum in this and other threads, the whole discussion has been couched in terms of 'domestic violence' and 'wife beating' and 'abuse', to the extent of disingenuity and poor framing of the discussion.

The verse in question clearly isn't talking about a passionate, spontaneous violent outburst upon the whim of a man and I think that we can ALL agree that unjustified and unprovoked striking of anyone in any context is by definition wrong, and not sanctioned by Quran, and I think people on both sides want the verse to mean that for the purposes of their own arguments when it clearly does not and has never meant that, but rather describes a dispassionate, orderly step-based process.

The other reason the whole discussion is improperly framed is because 434 isn't 'the wife beating verse'. Whether or not it means strike/beat or not there is completely irrelevant insofar as the broader principles and intertextual context of Quran apply

There may not be an explicit "'wife beating" verse aside 434 if not interpreted as strike/hit/beat, but there's also no verse anywhere describing hitting/striking children as a method of discipline. Does that mean that Quranically guided parents cannot spank their children as a matter of forthrightness and guidance upon a way, because it is not there in the Quran as an explicit thing sanctioned verbatim?

Nor is it appropriate to say "well if he hits her, she can hit him back" for very simple logic.

Self-defense and retaliation is not valid in the case where you are lawfully receiving an earned (for your deeds and behavior), procedural punishment from a valid authority.

Otherwise, the one who is lashed for committing Zina should also be able to lash the one who lashed them, despite that they who punished the fornicator did not commit Zina themselves.

Now, you may be of the way of thinking that the way of a father is not to be a valid authority in the home, that it is not his part to set order and guidance in the home or punish anyone for doing anything. That is a view.

You may also be of the way of thinking that even if there is such a thing as a valid authority who can punish others for disobedience and transgression, it is better not to punish people with striking. Better it be by taking something away from them, going to the naughty chair, no more Xbox, no more freedom because you go to prison etc, there are many good parents who do not believe in smacking their kids, as an example, and many good kids have been raised without being spanked on a regular basis if at all.

434 actually concurs with this because it doesn't prescribe getting physical as the first option for anybody.

The first step in any disagreement or conflict is dialogue, which is the first prescription. The second prescription is leaving, leaving the situation permanently or temporarily, this is almost like taking something away from someone, the very last step is striking and It's actually like that with nearly everything in life in the real world. If you can't talk it out, it either becomes a situation where you have to leave it be, and get out of there, or it becomes a matter of asserting dominance.

From nowhere in Quran can we derive principles that would create systems and institutions which we have as an example in the Westminister system what's called a 'hung parliament. There's no prescribed deadlock between two absolutely equal parties to be found.

That's why the idea of assigning two absolutely equal judges, equally biased from their respective families, doesn't make sense. That's why there are unequal obligations in marriage and why the idea of a completely equal marriage which results in a deadlock when the husband and wife disagree, doesn't make sense.

It just facilitates bureaucracy, external dependency, and unnecessary complexity for what is simple and salat (assigned duty), and a blueprint for building civilization bottom-up from the individual, to the family, to the town, the community, the city, and the whole country. If the system doesn't scale all the way up the chain, at every level it's not a sustainable system for sustaining human life, I.E, broken families, demographic crisis, declining fertility etc etc.

It's also why we have to deal with different people, male and female, people from other nations and backgrounds and means, and why in another sense we all have our own path in life and don't fully belong to any party or faction on this earth, our home is in the next life.

2148

"Each of you chooses the direction to follow; you shall race towards righteousness. Wherever you may be, God will summon you all. God is Omnipotent. "

And why we all have our own communities and national customs

1047

"And for every Ummah (a community or a nation), there is a Messenger; when their Messenger comes, the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged".

548

"Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with God's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had God willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To God is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed".

Whenever there's a deadlock the parties in that deadlock always have to adhere to parties or principles outside and above themselves and their institution, and if you're going to say that's authorities but those authorities are two in number and also completely equal, then those authorities will also have to defer to other authorities ad infinitum.

But I don't believe people really have a problem with authority, they're just uncomfortable with the idea of a patriarch, a father wielding authority in the context of his home concerning his family. When I see the attitudes and behaviors of the masses of western populations over the past 2 years, I see a people who have for the most part welcomed and applauded the assertive, strong hand of government coming in and deciding things in an incredibly decisive, swift, strong-handed manner.

If a father were to set rules for his family, that they are not to go out from the home but that they have a lawful reason, that if they do go out they must be back home by a certain time (curfew), that they are not authorized to leave the country or even the local government area, that they must take a privately produced American pharmaceutical product that this is not a discussion matter, we insist. I believe most people experiencing different degrees of moral outrage at 434 meaning to 'strike' or to 'beat' would put this behavior in a similar category of domestic violence extreme abusive-controlling-manipulative behavior. But do they wonder? I'm obviously riffing here but this is how I see it.

We don't see many people who genuinely dislike and disrepute authority, or the punishments and arbitration meted out by authority as a principle, we don't have to go back to Nazi-Germany or Stalinist Russia to see western populations getting on board with unbelievably rapid and piercing government overreach into personal lives with serious consequences for people not getting on board with the program straight away, or otherwise finding themselves on the wrong side of history.

People love authority and command when it agrees with them.

The indirectness, the over-litigation, and the hyper-institutionalization and hence factioning of justice and society haven't made us better people, more moral, more upright, more disciplined, more long-suffering than our forebears. What we have is a more dishonest, passive-aggressive society, where justice is either miscarried or unnecessarily delayed and complicated, and where people have issues with each other, even adult men, they would rather do underhanded, spiteful, and sabotage-like measures than simply have a direct confrontation defending their honor and be out with it.

The sorts of societies we live in partly come out of who and what we choose to trust and to what degree. I'm not saying put your faith in man, put your trust in God and his message. but if we're to have societies and institutions and civilizations, let's try to make sure we recognize what the basis for that is, what scales, and that we're not undermining it if we want it to stay around for posterity.

Peace Wakas

My argument is based on logic, not grammar or linguistics.

I believe we've heard a sufficient linguistic argument from Mazhar if that is the avenue you wish to pursue.

Your idea that judges or third parties can intervene and decide on matters concerning marriage and divorce is what the traditionalists believe.

They are the ones who make it difficult for a woman to divorce when they are in a bad marriage, contributing to what you would dislike as oppression of women and sexism.

No court on earth has any sanction from Quran to make a man or a wife marry, or divorce against the wishes of the husband or wife.

If a wife is in a bad, abusive marriage, she does not need a 'court' or an 'authority to leave it.

None of this ideology is from the Quran.

I don't have a translation. Nor do i do piecemeal work when there's a systemic problem.

I read and compare all the mainstream and credible translations and compare that they all have a similar or exact meaning on most verses. Im happy with sahih international or Sam Gerrans translation in this case. All of them are very similar on this verse.

The only translation aside what you've offered which renders the word 'judges' is Dr. Ghali's.

Yet If you read the second half of 435 it doesn't support the idea that judges are intervening and ruling on cases to do with marital dispute.

It says that if THEY (the husband and wife, not the two appointed 'judges&#039 wish to reconcile, Allah will make them reconcile. Its talking about reconciliation or peace. If the judges were to rule against the wishes of the husband and wife, would that cause reconciliation or peace? Or would one or both parties be aggrieved that 3rd parties have ruled against their wishes.

Please think this through brother.

If people cannot be made to marry by judges against their will, nor can they be made to divorce by judges against their will, how could it be the case that judges can rule that they must reconcile if that is not in their hearts?

Does that make sense?

Oh dear. You keep digging the hole deeper!

I used my own translation, based on Quranic analysis. Feel free to prove to us why it cant be "judge" and can only be "arbiter/mediator". It doesn't matter to me which is chosen, as their meaning overlaps, but I'm interested how you can rule out one over the other meaning.

Dictionary definition
Arbiter a person who settles a dispute or has ultimate authority in a matter.
Judge a public officer appointed to decide cases in a law court
Mediator a person who attempts to make people involved in a conflict come to an agreement; a go-between.

To clarify, when I use the word "judge" I don't mean a person with horse hair, black cloak, sitting in a court room. When I use "judge" I think of someone who judges, arbitrates, considers and decides over a matter, aids in resolving and concluding a matter between parties etc.

My point still stands
And we are still waiting on your explanation.

Also feel free to re-translate the verse however you wish, as you seem to imply it doesn't mean that. This is a common problem, i.e. what commonly happens when people get stuck, they are forced to re-interpret verse X, which causes another issue elsewhere so they are forced to re-interpret verse Y, which causes another issue elsewhere so they are forced to re-interpret verse Z and so on... etc.

Refer to comment 14 of this thread as to why it cant logically be ''judge'.

You do not appoint judges from peoples families, you want a neutral party who is able to objectively consider the facts, you want zero conflict of interest.

If it was found that a judge was presiding over a case in which his family member stood to gain from his decision, in any court of law, the case would be thrown out with the judge disqualified and ruled a mistrial.

How would the 2 judges resolve the case if both disagree? How would they resolve a deadlock?

Im trying to work with you here but Im just not sure you've fully thought this through.

As to appointing a mediator/peace broker figure for a conflict between 2 individuals

Anyone can appoint a mediator, you don't have to be anyone special to support people and mediate a conflict, just have patience, good intentions, and competency of the matters at hand.

Logically, if god is talking about judges, he would not be asking for judges from their families who would obviously be biased to their family members, nor would he ask for two judges rather than one, or even three, in a situation where the conflict is already in a deadlock with 2 parties added to by another 2 parties to another equal number.

So god isn't talking about 'judges' here, in the sense of a judge presiding over a court case.

Which translation are you getting 'judge' from? Im getting arbitrator or mediator, which is not the same thing as a judge presiding over a court

I can't do full justice in my response here but there is a quick thing I can point out with the interpretation of 'cite'.

Much mention in the article is made of courts and authority, and sometimes the two are paired as in the case of "court/authority'

The problem is that neither marriage nor divorce requires any 'court' or 'authority'.

Now I'd have to go back again and do a search, but from memory, courts aren't prescribed anywhere in the Quran, much less in the case of marriage or divorce. The closest thing I can think of which you would be talking about would be 'witnesses'.

Witnesses are not the same thing as a court or an authority.

Yes, well i think one very easy way to mitigate that would be to simply not combine the tasks of translation and interpretation simultaneously, at least not as an individual. If you're apart of a project and one persons task is to translate and another persons task is to interpret, and there is assigned roles and a collaborative effort, thats different.

Undergoing a full, holistic interpretation or exposition of Quran, after undergoing a full, holistic translation into English, as an example, such as what Sam gerrans has done, is also different.

None the less im happy to engage with this particular translation and exposition of 434, and hope to do so after work today or tomorrow.

peace,

Whilst I understand the point you are trying to make (essentially that since physical punishment is sanctioned elsewhere in Quran this opens up the possibility of physical chastisement in 434) but my first impression is why bother with indirect arguments which are inherently weaker than direct arguments?

I messaged Sam in 2016 with www.Quran434.com but got a generic reply (I think) basically saying his time is limited thus cannot engage in discussion. I am happy to discuss and challenge anyone who has a view that differs from www.Quran434.com (as it is easily the most cogent Quranic understanding).

You may also find this article interesting
https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-crime-punishment-expiation.html

I'm not sure what your meaning is regarding indirect arguments and direct arguments.

Yes, Sam shuts down comments on many of his videos, he seems to be a bit self-absorbed at times. I have some trouble with his translation particularly when it comes to his translation of 'jinn' as 'human elite'. I don't think he's established sufficient grounds for this particular translation of 'jinn'.

Part of that self-absorption may have something to do with narcissistic personality traits, but the upshot of that is it allows him to be hyperfocused and tunnel visioned in his work on his projects.

As a side note, I'm also wondering if there is any way of getting in contact with Hamza Abdul malik, as I see his videos on Youtube and I see what is called the 'tawheed conference' but I'm not seeing any other advertising, or other information for that.

Returning to the matter at hand, and the website www.Quran434.com

One point of principle I'd like to state is that the task of translating is not the same as the task of interpreting. When you're partaking in both at the same time, there's a scholarly conflict of interest. One of my biggest concerns for a project or an individual partaking in translation, and interpretation at the same time, would be individuals looking for a particular translation out of wanting to validate a particular interpretation that hinges upon a specific translation of a single verse.

Yep, The Quran would prohibit that behavior.

So then where is the place for corporeal punishment, if any? If a parent, mother or father, were to spank their child as a method of discipline, is that according to the Quran 'domestic violence' or 'child abuse'.

Or how would we differentiate between the two?

I say traditional because from what I've understood the traditional marriage in most cultures even non-muslim and what Qur'an describes is pretty much the same. Quranic marriage is maybe a better term.

Domestic Violence

Grand Qur’ān has prohibited domestic violence negating erroneous "belief" of beating one's wife.

We have history of violence against women which is tied to the history of women being viewed as property and a gender role assigned to be subservient to men.

Grand Qur’ān addressed the subject and condemned self made erroneous perceptions regards the role and relationships of two partners of human species. However, majority of the translators imported in Islam the concept of "beating one's wife to keep her within the bounds of duty" by manipulatively treating and assigning meaning to one Verbal sentence in Ayah 434 as signifying, "You (the husbands) beat them (aforementioned wives)".

http//haqeeqat.pk/Sexuality-DomesticViolence.htm

Where is 'domestic violence' found in Quran? I don't see the words in the Arabic or the English translation.

Who gets to define what is domestic violence?

I think we need to go back to first principles here

For me the concept that hinges this entire discussion is not 'idriboo' and the Arabic root Dad-Ra-Ba, I'm happy for that to mean something else than what it's traditionally interpreted as if there's solid evidence for that, because my argument and understanding of the matter doesn't hinge upon the meaning of this one word. My understanding of Quran is largely through intertextual analysis and working from the principle of consistency, that the Quran is a consistent book and whatever translation or interpretation you have MUST make sense with everything else the Quran says.

So the really important part of 434 for me is not 'idriboo' but rather what follows right after which in Sam Gerrans translation is 'but if they obey you,'

Because 'but if they obey you' is translated correctly, it would imply that Allah is prescribing measures for men, most likely husbands, to foster obedience in their wives in this verse.

If the whole objective is the obedience of the wife to the husband, that has shocking implications for a modern egalitarian/feminist framework of marriage which would state that a wife owes no special obedience to her husband.

If a wife owes a husband zero obedience, then it's wrong for him to take any measures against her for disobeying him, forget whatever 'idriboo' means, he has not right even to admonish her with words. Admonish her for what? she owes him no obedience according to such a view.

So first we've got to get our understanding of what traditional marriage is straight. Then we can work out exactly what is fair and just in the context of the verses of the Quran and what a figure owed obedience should reasonably do to secure obedience from a party showing signs of rebellion.

Okay great, I'm happy for this thread to be removed.

My contention is that the Quran's affirmation of corporeal punishment in 242, 244, and indirectly in 425 and 3330 (whether you think 425 is saying half, or equal, it is referring back to 242 as the only verse explaining what the punishment is), has far deeper implications as a principle than I've seen anyone explicate.

In some sense, it makes some of the reinterpretation of 434 as something other than hitting/striking, redundant, because it establishes a broader principle.

The question is not is physical/corporeal punishment ever prescribed by God for certain people in certain circumstances for certain transgressions?

Because with 242 and 244, that's now been established.

The questions remaining are more like

For what punishments is a physical/corporeal punishment warranted?

Who is permitted to administer corporal punishment?

As far as I know, 242 is the only verse in the Quran that prescribes lashes explicitly, 425 and 3330 links back to the verse but for the same transgression/crime of sexual immorality/zina. Some could interpret this in a reductionist sense to mean that lashes are not permitted at any other time for any other thing, but even that would be problematic because the key words of 425 and 3330 are normally interpreted as 'halving' and 'doubling' respectively, both imply a variable scale of just severity of punishment in relation to a given offense which would only make sense if an even smaller number than 50 lashes were applicable for even lesser transgressions.

Regardless, the question of who is permitted to administer the lashes is extremely important in the context of the reinterpretation of 434 as not hit or strike.

If we establish that there is no Quranic, or logical reason which would prevent a husband from administering the lashes on an adulterous wife, (after having established 4 witnesses to the act) then we already have established a context elsewhere in the Quran from 434 where a husband 'hitting' or 'striking' his wife is lawful, albeit with the caveat that it would also be lawful if the husband were to commit zina, for her to produce witnesses and lash her husband. I have no problem with that, because in the case of Zina I understand it to be an equal crime for men and women of equal status (though it varies with women of different social status)

The fact that Zina is treated as a crime equally punished for men and women is not what you would expect if the framework of values in evaluating gender relations were that of the modern, secular, humanist, feminist worldviews. Because of what the Quran establishes elsewhere regarding the rights of men in marriage.

Namely that men are permitted by Allah to marry up to 4 wives, which increases the number of women a man may lawfully have sex with (though this is certainly not the primary reason for 4 wives being permitted) This being the case, why would the punishment for zina not be greater for men than for women?.

Also, why isn't the social status of men I.E slave men considered in regards to zina as compared to slave women?

Broadly, why would lashing/hitting be prescribed for any transgression if it were not a valid method of punishment?

Even more broadly, why would any differentiation between men and women be made, in what their roles are, what their rights are, how many they can marry, if they have to provide a marital gift, what the rules of divorce are regarding waiting periods, and so on, and so on, if the haqq, the truth, and the best way for humanity were upon the sunnah of the feminist-secular-human traditions of the west which would generally negate such differentiation as backward, and sexist?

Hopefully, that's a redundant question, and no Muslim needs to be convinced of the innate differences between men and women and the different 'salat' duties assigned by Allah in Quran. But I've seen some language that seems to me indicative of superimposing of modern west values upon the Qur'an in a similarly problematic way to traditionalists superimposing of traditionalist values and especially their hadith and tafsir as the tools and principles of their interpretation and hermeneutics of Quran.

Returning to the implications of Quranic affirmation of corporal punishment

What could it mean insofar as the disciplining of children? There is today a movement mainly in the west away from the use of corporeal punishment as a parenting discipline tool, to the extent of criminalizing a parent using spanking/hitting as a method of discipline, in certain places, it's already the case that this is a crime.

What could it mean in regard to the penal system? is the modern penal/correctional system as best practice and civilized, another modern assumption that we ought to question?

Interestingly, prisons are cited in the Quran mainly in the context of Surah Yusuf where Joseph is in Egypt, and in the case of 2629 where Moses is threatened with prison by Pharaoh. Yet nowhere in Quran is prison prescribed either as rehabilitation or as a deterrence. I'm not saying there's no place or time for prisons ever, I'm merely questioning the assumption that 'time out' or 'the naughty chair' is always the best punishment.

I think that prisons go hand in hand with big, bureaucratic states for a handful of reasons. The justice described in the Qur'an in my opinion follows the models of medium population community and town justice, with very simple and efficient ways for holding people accountable and punishing people for crimes. Ways that don't require a complicated judicial system or the involvement of the state in most, if any of the judicial procedures.

This is actually how the traditionalists have treated even something as serious as homicide in much of history as a civil dispute not requiring corrective punishment by the state (even though an Islamic state was around at the time) and is also in alignment with the arguments Maajid Nawaz insofar as he suggests that an authoritarian Islamic state imposing one interpretation of Shariah upon all of society is itself bid'ah (innovation) not concurrent with the decentralization and pluralism of the caliphates (abbasids, umayyads) and even the ottoman empire prior to the Tanzimat reforms, where there were 3 court systems going at the same time, one for Muslims, one for non-muslims (mainly Christians and jews) and the trade court. All the while many people still lived traditionally and resolved matters communally and individually out of court, avoiding and ignoring the court litigation process altogether.

Obviously, in traditionalist interpretations and implementations of shariah and hudud, this system often results in vigilantism, brutality, and unjust mob rule, which no one wants to live in if they have the choice.

So there also needs to be an understanding of why that happens and how to prevent that without requiring the development of a complicated, slow, expensive and prone to corruption judicial system which inevitably enlarges the state apparatus and tax collection scope.

As always, Allah knows best.

Salam

Assalamu alaikum

I'm a 26 year old male, from Sydney Australia.

My background is a convert to Sunni Islam about 17 months ago, I was a practicing sunni for about 8 months praying 5x a day making my wudu, abstaining from all the different things, praying tarawih and fasting during Ramadan etc.

Because I came to Islam by reading Quran, I had a good idea of what Quran said and what it didn't say despite the traditional position being that translations cannot be Quran, and that the translated meanings are always inferior, I knew that the difference in meaning could not be so great so as to explain a lot of what I was told was Islam, and that they were simply using secondary sources to the Quran for the Sunni religion.

Anywho, over the past 8-9 months I've been heavily researching and investigating perspectives that I actually view as more 'fundamentalist' despite 'fundamentalism' being seen as the problem among 'reformers', namely Quran-alone or Quran centric ways of living as a 'religious' way of life.

My primary influence has been Sam Gerrans, but I've also taken a lot of Hamza Abdul Malik from the U.S, with some consideration of the perspectives but not complete agreement with the positions of Hany Atchan, Mufti Abu Layth, and tolu-e-Islam, which is mainly Ghulam Ahmed Pervez, I've yet to look into Muhammad Iqbal and I want to give more time to the articles and presentations of Leslie Terebessy. I've done a lot of independent research which is mainly similar to the work of Hamza Abdul Malik insofar as it is heavily based on reason, logic, and critical analysis, and less on more complicated linguistic arguments more in vein with what Hany Atchan does.

So I'm here to increase my understanding of all things relevant to Islam, discuss and debate with sincerity and good-will, and I'm also on the dating market as a 'pureblood' as they say )

Salam

Hello, I was wanting to contribute to the discussion surrounding 434 especially after reading the article on this site, and did a quick search on this forum for threads, I saw quite a few.

Is there an ongoing or central thread for discussion on the matter? because I would rather add to that discussion than make yet another thread explaining my point of view, but I don't see any such sticky.

I plan to delete this and either join the discussion on another thread, or create a new thread outlining the problems I see with the interpretations offered.