I am not God and I cannot be God, but if I am sanctified and worthy I can enter into union with the Father as Jesus did and become a member of God's body of flesh and bone.

That's more or less the whole point of religious attainment is it not? To enjoy communion with God?

Does anyone have a response to my efforts to contribute?

This seems to be happening to all of my posts. Should I even bother to stick around here?

I have two previous attempts to answer your post. You seem willing to engage with others and their ideas but it seems you totally missed mine. Perhaps you can find them and respond?

I agree that angelic beings have established an agreement to be true and faithful to the will of Allah and therein have yielded their agency to Allah. However, this does not preclude them from making the choice to go back on their agreement and be disobedient. This is in fact what the demonic hosts have done and is why they were banished from their former standings.

Salaam,

Thank you very much. I noticed you placed a post about Adam, as well, and from my short skimming (I will read it all tomorrow insh'Allah), it seems you believe "Adam" is not a single man, but "Man" as in "Mankind?" This was my original belief, as well, but other posters here have given strong arguments that Adam was a true human being among a civilization of humans. I will read more insh'Allah )

If you carefully read my post in this thread you will come to see that both of these are true.

Adam is a specific group or subset of humanity that as a collective, due to entering into a covenant of union, function as a single body of flesh and bone. Prior to entering into this covenant, they are brought to a level of spiritual enlightenment that enables them to be champions for liberty and those laws of God that foster the protection of everyone's unalienable rights granted by our Creator.

You can think of the Founding Fathers of the USA as an example of Adamic souls. However, the USA is only a partial foreshadow of the Kingdom of the Father that is yet to obtain its victory. This Kingdom is the Kingdom that is given to Adam in the latter days as prophesied by Daniel. And, even though Adam and His Bride (the Church) transgress and fall, They are ministered to and redeemed and They are able to retake Their throne in victory and they are who rule and reign as Christ during the Millennium. This is the Kingdom and the Church in a purified and sanctified state.

Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Protestants, Mormons, etc. are all looking for the coming of Christ and for a new Wedding to take place. The Mosaic covenant will be fully completed, including the punitive provisions, and then a new Moses will deliver a new remnant and this will be a new Adam and Eve marriage covenant with a Kingship. Just as the coming of Jesus followed the format of the spring feasts, the coming of the Father shall follow the format of the fall feasts.

It's important to know the provisions of how the fall feasts work. If the barley isn't sufficiently ripe the fall harvest is called off and a new month is added to the Jewish calendar for that year and then the harvest recommences in the following month. This gives the provision for the Father to come and start the latter day harvest but for things to go awry due to the immaturity of what is being harvested. Therefore, it can be called off and started again subsequently.

So, just as Jesus was taken and reserved for a later time, so too will the advent of the Father be taken at the time of His first coming and be reserved for a later time. Then, on this 3rd advent everything will be in place for the fall harvest of souls to be performed. It will begin with the blowing of trumpets, etc. and proceed just as it says in the Book of Revelation. This is all about Christ as Adam, of which body we can be eligible to participate in because the time for the fulfillment of these prophecies is now.

The Qur'an gives confirmation to me of the truth of what I have shared here. But, I acknowledge that I read the Qur'an with a different perspective than traditional Muslims do so they may have some trouble seeing it the way I do. I would be very interested in hearing if they are aware of anything in the Qur'an that contradicts this.

I read the article on Free-Minds regarding Adam/Eve as a metaphor, however I have heard that apparently the only verses we can take as metaphor in the Quran are those that are explicitly stated as such. I always think that metaphors can also be implicit through reasoning, but hadith-followers state that those who follow the Quran alone begin to just twist and make things mean whatever they want, and there can be some truth in that (there is a way to go far too extreme in either case).

Anyway, can anyone please enlighten me on the Adam/Eve tale?

I call it a narrative since saying it is a tale implies it is a fiction.

It is a narrative that is explicit and it directly pertains to a literal reality.

Adam and Eve are flesh and bone bodies, which bodies are composed of members that are individual people like you and me. The Apostle Paul spoke of this kind of body in Ephesians 530 when he taught that converts to the Gospel of Jesus Christ became members of the body of Christ, of His flesh and of his bone. Paul wasn't speaking in a metaphor there. He literally defined a body of flesh and bone as a societal body. Early converts to Jesus Christ's teachings were literally giving life to a unique, distinct and real body of flesh and bone that had its own spirit. It is also my understanding that this is the resurrected body of Jesus Christ that Paul said he saw in his vision. This was the process of Paul's eyes being opened up to see that the resurrected body of Jesus was in fact the congregation of Saints who received spiritual life by way of the ministry of Jesus Christ. Their resurrection from spiritual death to spiritual life was the process of the resurrection of Jesus from physical death to physical life by way of His Spirit being received into the tabernacles of the early Saints.

So, similarly, when you try and take the Adam and Eve narrative in a direct, literal, plain, practical, non-symbolic and non-metaphorical manner, you need to know what a body of flesh and bone is so that you can take it that way. Just as the society of the early Saints were the resurrected body of Christ, so too is Adam a societal body of Saints gathered together into a unique and distinct congregation. And, in this case, not just any congregation. This group of individuals was given total dominion over ALL other forms of life. This was to be the ultimate governing society on this planet.

Adam is a group of men who are organized into a distinct body who are joined in a specific covenant that binds them together into a being of one flesh, just like a marriage covenant between a man and a woman binds them together into a single body of one flesh.

Likewise, Eve is a group of people who are organized into a distinct body who are joined in a specific covenant that binds them together into a being of one flesh. The difference here is this organization is a helpmeet and companion to the governing body of Her Husband Adam.

Seeing it this way allows you to look at statements that appear a bit awkward in a new light that makes them simple and straight forward. For example, Adam said that Eve is "bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh". So, some individuals are members of both Adam's body and Eve's body at the same time. I am such a case. I have taken the oath and covenant of the Melchizedek Priesthood and am thereby a member of that body. I have also receive the birth of water and spirit that Jesus spoke of, which is in connection with the process of being baptized by water and by fire, which process makes you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ. This makes me a member of the Bride's body as well as a member of the Husband's body. In this way, literally, Eve is bone of Adam's bone and flesh of Adam's flesh.

So, think of Adam as the Priesthood body and Eve as the Bride or the Church body.

In God's eyes these flesh and bone beings are totally distinct and His Laws are applied to them just as they are applied to individuals. You can see this same thing in the Old Testament. God named the people of Israel Aholah and Aholibah and treated them as if the northern kingdom and the southern kingdom were thereby two distinct individuals. Both of these women committed adultery against their Husband Jehovah and as a consequence these two kingdoms were "stoned to death", which is when they were sacked and taken into captivity by Assyria and Babylon.

A person elsewhere in this discussion suggest that Adam was the first to be given free will as opposed to his contemporary humans who were not afforded that level of individual autonomy. I would only wish to modify this to suggest that Adam is a golden age society that rules and reigns during the Millennial period when an old creation is ending and a new creation is beginning. Adam is the governing society that gives true liberty and free-will to those who are a part of that society. The lifespan of 930 years corresponds much better with a millennial golden age society vs. a single individual.

If you can grasp what I have shared thus far then you can start to see how Adam and Eve can in fact be a current and immediately relevant narrative to understand. From my point of view, this narrative is one that repeats with each cycle of creation, which means I consider the "creation" to be a geo-geneo-political creation vs. a cosmic creation. This is why ancient historians find very similar stories of past Christs, Saviors, Messiahs, etc. because this planet has hosted many repeated cycles in our ancient history as the race of Man recreates itself over and over again.

Genesis 24 explicitly tells you that everything mentioned in the depiction of the 7 days of creation pertains to genealogies. "These ARE the generations." All of it pertains to people and it is speaking about what lineages and what levels of spiritual glory people are fore-ordained to experience from cycle to cycle of creation. Every cycle has its Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, etc.

The creation account is in and of itself a blueprint of the creation. It spans 7 Lord's Days, which are as a thousand years unto man. This means we have a repeat of Adam every 6 to 7 thousand years. Each Day of Creation is the blueprint for the corresponding Millennium. We have just finished up Day 6 and are moving into Day 7, which is the Sabbath Day Millennium.

Adam is here now because He comes at the latter days of creation at the very end of Day 6, which is the end of the 6th Millennia, to lay the foundation for the new creation to follow. He does transgress and fall, but Adam is ministered to and redeemed and He retakes His throne in glory and victory by casting Lucifer (Cain) down from having usurped the Father's throne.

This isn't exactly how it is, but it is very close You can look at the society that was granted to the citizens of the United states of America that gave them the greatest measure of liberty any people have enjoyed since the beginning of documented history. But, this society has become corrupted and polluted because it partook of forbidden fruit. However, in due time it shall throw off the usurper Lucifer and regain its proper station and glory and establish a golden age society that will rule and reign the world in righteousness. That is the destiny that awaits the remnant who hold true to God's Law and true Liberty.

Adam is the vice-regent of God who was created in His exact same image and likeness who makes all of the eternal and binding decrees upon all those He has been given dominion over. It is Adam who "names" all the "creatures" and fore-ordains them to where they belong in the following cycle of creation. We are judged by Adam and He writes our fore-ordained destiny in the Lamb's Book of Life.

I could keep going but I think you should get my point about taking Adam as a flesh and bone being in a literal (tangible) sense.

I believe his web-site is this one
http//www.thehiddenbook.net/

It is a "work in progress" web-site because the author prefers a more conversational format for sharing his ideas. He has spent hours with me via Skype and I have enjoyed many enlightening conversations with him. I too would very much like to see his threads remain unlocked and the rabble rousers who try and derail and detract be locked out of his threads instead of locking the whole thread itself.

Can you deny that some verses in the Bible carry immense Wisdom?

There can be found lots of inspiration for daily living in the Bible despite its age (and partial distortion).

As I said, the seals to open up Al-Kitaab are in the Bible.
And, the Qur'an is given to confirm the Al-Kitaab.

Except, after having said this, why is it I am only hearing crickets chirping, so to speak?

And if it were Dead Sea?

Excellent distinction!

You can be spiritually born to Allah or Lucifer.
They each provide a "fire", but one leads to "life" and the other leads to the "second death".
Everyone ends up in eternal burnings, the question is which baptism of fire you hold to.

Since angels blend into another dimension they are invisible no matter substance. But the Quran says Ibliss is made of fire, but it does not prove that all angels are made of fire. As far as I know, there is no absolute fact for this question. It does not matter really though. Fire is not a substance by the way while water is.

It could mean the angels have no mass and thus able to take any ethereal shape. But fire needs fuel and oxygen though, so angels (or at least Ibliss) must be relying on those substances to survive. I wonder how you can get a living being out of fire, but to God everything is of course possible (duh).

Talk about going deep now mr MoF. Now it is time to sleep. Good night!

God bless you

The dimension of "life" that is born of fire is clearly spoken of as pertaining to the baptism of fire, which is of the Holy Ghost, which is spiritual birth and thus spiritual life. It is only a mystery if we don't pay attention to the dimension holy writ clearly outlines in this regard.

Spiritual life is the dimension of "life" that Jesus Christ brought anew and is the resurrection that he brought to mankind. Thus, the Qur'an is correct to put the focus on this rather than what Christians typically focus on.

Spiritual life pertains to the dimension of the truth and light that a person has in their mind that they are committed to live their life by. Some have a greater level of spiritual glory than others; therefore, there are lesser and greater ranks of angelic hosts. As I have said before, the Creation Account is the master blueprint for how the spiritual creation is organized and it is also the schedule upon which it is manifested.

For example, look at the reaction Christians/Protestants ("fishes" and "creeping things&quot have toward Mormons ("man&quot. They laugh and mock and consider it blasphemy that someone like Joseph Smith Jr. (or any of his successors) would have the audacity to purport that God would speak directly to them and to give them the "keys of the Kingdom" and to give them dominion over all things and command them to perform the ordinances of the temple, including the giving of a new "name", to all of the souls who have ever lived.

Christians and Protestants have a degree of spiritual life within them but they arrogantly view their particular brand of spiritual life as the only legitimate form of spiritual life. And, it is true that they do have a degree of light and truth; therefore, they are angelic beings born of fire by way of the Holy Ghost. So, these passages which appear to be mysterious can easily be explained in a practical manner as I have just shown here.

So, for Joseph Smith Jr. to come along and start to claim God gave him further light and knowledge via new revelations and the power and authority to implement the Kingdom of God on earth, this was tantamount to blasphemy to Christians/Protestants. They summarily dismissed the claims of the Mormons despite the fact that the claims were in keeping with what Jesus said they should be looking for. It's a sad irony and is yet another instance of "paradise lost". They were not looking for the coming of a new Adam to lay the foundation of a new cycle of Creation so that there could be a new heavens and a new earth.

Instead of Christians/Protestants recognizing the light and truth Adam was given and the dominion He was given, the angels (of the lesser levels of glory) were jealous of Adam and tried to deny the fact that He too was an angelic being of greater glory than themselves. They refused to give obeisance claiming that Adam was just a man and that there was no spiritual life or fire in his being. So, the irony here is there are many Christians/Protestants who fancy themselves as angels of light who enjoy spiritual life, but who are unknowingly in the ranks of the Shaitan to persecute and deny Adam the Kingdom God gave Him.

Further, Genesis makes it clear that Adam too was given the "breath of life" and that He too became a (spiritually) living soul. The difference is, his level of glory far surpassed that of all of the previous creations, except for that of "the greater light to rule the day" who is Jesus Christ himself.

This is one major reason why I enjoy the Qur'an so much. Because it gives much greater detail about what happens surrounding Adam. It confirms in every way thus far that my manner of reading the creation account and the narrative of creation on the flesh and bone level is 100% accurate.

So, if/when your eyes are opened to be able to see Adam as a flesh and bone being scheduled to manifest in the 6th millennia as the cycle repeats, who is currently here in flesh and bone, yet is in a fallen state, then you can lock into a manner of deciphering all of holy writ in plain and practical terms instead of turning it all into mystery and/or fantasy. This level of understanding to read the creation account as a master blueprint is, I believe, what the Qur'an calls Al-Kitaab. And, I'm not the originator of this understanding. God is willing to share this understanding with all who are pure and sincere in their devotion to Him and He blinds those who are not sincere to see it as foolishness.

The way you stated it above had me believe that God needs us to gain a victory, which I do not believe. God is victorious with or without mankind.
My understanding of God does not separate Him from mankind.
What kind of a Kingdom would the Father's Kingdom be with zero citizens in it?

Qur'an is from God. I do believe God uses prophets and messengers, but even without them it does not make it impossible for him. I just see God as not needing us but, us needing him.
Yes, of course, but when the time comes for Zion to be redeemed, don't you think the true believers of Islam would be friendly and supportive of such as an expression of their true belief in God?

Aren't true Muslims also looking forward to the coming of the Father's Kingdom as well?

I suppose I miss understood because I do not believe in John's revelation. I do believe in judgement day, but not in the Armageddon that Christians and some Muslims do.
There is a basis in the Mosaic Covenant where there are certain punitive terms that shall have to be fulfilled before the children of Israel can be cleared of all of the negative consequences for their former adultery against Jehovah. Unfortunately, Armageddon as described in scripture is a pretty clear match up to what Jehovah said would befall Israel if she turned away from the Law and walked contrary to her Lord. The good news is once all of this punitive humbling is over, there shall be a small remnant of Israel that remains, which shall be the purified, refined and proven seed stock from which a whole new cycle of Creation shall be birthed from. These are who shall establish the Father's Kingdom and it shall be a blessing to all the righteous. I am certain that there shall be many Muslims who shall provide aid and comfort to help this small remnant of Israel to rise up from their humiliation. There are also many Muslims who shall be on the other end of things who are being instruments of punishment upon the Israelites as well.

My reply about the Pisces goes along with the symbolism you were pointing out. Yet I still believe a lot of that is rooted in pagan symbolism, adopted by Paul. I am not saying your right or wrong, to each his own. I was Christian for almost 33 years, I understand the passages. My brother in law is a born again Christian, he talks about this Baptism of fire every time he sees me...lol However, he does it without an open mind.

When they were teaching the class they stated pure light, without any darkness like the human. Then again I came from the teaching of original sin, so man could never be fully "light". The only difference besides that was "free will"
When a person is "born again" they become an entirely new creation in Christ. And, I'm not talking about an emotional rush that modern Christians get because someone else picked up the tab for their sins and they can just go on sinning without a conscience about it. This is a counterfeit spiritual birth to a seducing spirit that seeks to corrupt the pure Gospel. A real genuine conversion unto Christ means that you truly have become transformed and quickened in your inner person so that you no longer have a desire to sin and so that you are made clean and ready for remarriage to God as a virgin bride, holy and pure. So, again, my position is not contradicted when you take into account what the real intent of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was originally intended for.

Why do you say it this way as if it would have more meaning to me or I might be offended. Prophet Mohammed means nothing more to me than what Prophet Jesus means to me. I am not one of those who holds him above all others in creation. Just as much as I don't believe in hadith, I am not sure I trust everything that is claimed to have come out of Prophet Jesus's mouth either. Meaning stories or dreams passed down. I love them both and I don't want to have something wrongly attributed to them. Hope that makes sense.

I was just trying to say that it doesn't diminish God an any way to acknowledge that God works through the instrumentality of people to perform the things that He does. And, I was using an example of how God worked through Mohammed to produce the Qur'an.

I think I understand you well enough that I'm comfortable leaving off, unless you have further questions. But, perhaps we should start our own discussion thread since we are starting to stray from the original post.

Peace kylixguru,

I was taught that "bath under fire" was the cleansing of spirit thru preaching the word
of christ in the face of unacceptance or rejection but to do one's duty by preaching
nonetheless.
This is the process that leads up to people receiving that "baptism of fire". If it wasn't for missionaries going forth to preach the "good news" there wouldn't be converts to begin the process of preparation to receive the Father's Kingdom when it comes. This is what Jesus was talking about when he taught Nicodemus that a person had to be born both of water and of the spirit before they could be received into the Father's Kingdom when it would come. And, poor Nicodemus didn't get it at first. He asked Jesus if a person should enter again into their mother's womb. And, Jesus didn't necessarily refute him, but it still seemed that he missed the point.

And, perhaps this helps shed light upon the other passage talking about all things being first made of "water". Jesus is more or less saying that first of all you need to obtain a physical body and then while in that physical body you need to receive the preaching of "the word" and become spiritually born so that in your heart and mind you are in agreement with the Father's Kingdom.

In a simplistic way, Jesus was teaching that the Father's Kingdom would be composed of people in the flesh who are spiritually born as well. Absent that "spiritual birth" or that "spiritual resurrection", which is the baptism by fire, a person would not be able to be received into the Father's Kingdom.

I am sorry did I miss something?? God needs assistance?? He can't gain victory?? Are you serious??
You probably did miss something along the way which causes you to trip up on the words I have spoken.

God's people who establish Zion in a redeemed state shall receive assistance from others, including the true believers of Islam. God shall move upon the hearts of many to lend their assistance to the fledgling group of the remnant who survives the scourge and judgment that is coming.

Do you disbelieve that God works through the instrumentality of people to perform His labors?

Is the Qur'an the product of Mohammed? Or, is it the product of God?

Does it take away from it that Mohammed assisted God in making the Qur'an available to the world?

It is believed that Jesus and Christianity started the Age of Pisces. Pisces astrological symbol is the fishes and the fish is associated with the Christian faith and was used secretly by them to identify themselves. Jesus was the ?fisher of men? and was known to talk symbolically about fish. Pisces traditionally rules spirituality, compassion, sacrifice, service to others and faith. All these things were strong during the Piscean Age and it was a time when one of the largest religion?s of the world was started.
And that is yet another level of confirmation of what I am talking about. Do you think it is coincidental that these things align? Why do you say this as if only it can be true and mine cannot be true? They are all true and mutually confirming.

In a class I took when working at the Diocese they stated Angels where beings of light.

And, what do they mean by "light". When a human being has light and truth illuminate their minds, are they not then a being of light? Again, this is a mutually confirming thing, not a mutually exclusive thing.

The angels, I believe are not made from fire, although the Quran does not state what
the angels are made from, as far as I know. Therefore the angels are different from the
jinn which shaytayn is a member. One can argue that shaytayn was the same as the
the angels until the point of disobedience.
This is a very interesting post to me. It triggers some thoughts I'll share, for what it's worth.

My understanding of the angelic hierarchies is that angels are a spiritual creation, which explains the aspect of being created from fire. There is what is called the baptism of fire that Jesus brought, which was exemplified when he laid his hands upon his disciples heads and commanded them to receive the Holy Ghost. At this point they experienced the ordinance coupled with their spiritual birth. The baptism of fire and spiritual birth, or put another way, the process of spiritual resurrection, is the means by which the angelic hosts are created. This spiritual birth where the law of carnal commandments was raised to the spiritual level and carried out spiritually is the ushering in of spiritual life that previously was not generally available. Spiritual resurrection is what Jesus brought anew that was not generally among the Jews, who were still on the schoolmaster of the carnal laws and commandments.

So, the creation of the lesser angels had its beginning in the very beginning of the 5th millennium. The level of spiritual glory available at that time was symbolized by "fishes". Jesus called his disciples to be "fishers of men" and when He appeared in a resurrected body of flesh and bone to his disciples they recognized him with some awkwardness, fear and trepidation because they had difficulty to see him. What did Jesus say? He said "marvel not, for a spirit alone has not flesh, but see that I can partake of these cooked fishes". He's saying "I am more than just a spirit, I am resurrected in the flesh". But, what he was talking about is they themselves and all those who believe on them become members of the resurrected body of flesh and bone of Jesus. This is what Paul tried to say in Ephesians 530. Paul is saying "Duh, don't you get the mystery here? We ourselves are the members of the flesh and bone body of Christ."

This is what Paul's eyes were opened to see that completely blew him away. It was all something that he grasped as a totally new way of seeing things. He saw that they as a collective body were fulfilling the unfolding of the creation narrative. Paul understood that all of the aspects in the creation account pertained to people. He saw Christianity itself as the manifestation of "fishes" being created on Day 5 and that together as a collective they were the manifestation of Christ's bodily resurrection in the flesh as a tangible reality that lived and breathed among humanity.

So, back to my original thought. The angelic creation began when Jesus introduced anew the process of spiritual birth/resurrection and raised humanity up to the spiritual level. Now, it wasn't just "thou shalt not kill" but "thou shalt not be angry". Now it wasn't just "thou shalt not commit adultery" but "thou shalt not look upon another to lust after them" because that was adultery in the heart. All those individuals who stepped up and believed in implementing the carnal commandments as a foundation and to raise it up to the spiritual level are the angelic hosts. They were created by way of the baptism of fire of the Holy Ghost.

So, this all started on Day 5 (5th Millennium) with the "fishes" and we can see a steady process of evolution from there. Next came the creation of the "fowls" who were not bound down and limited by the "waters". They were allowed to fly freely into the heavens and be unbound by the governance of men, which is what the waters represent. (See Rev 1715) And, eventually, you have the Roman Empire crumbling and breaking down and giving way for a greater level of liberty, which allows dry land to appear. Thus, in Day 6 you have the coming forth of "creatures" that are of a higher order of spiritual understanding and glory. This progresses until up to the last part of Day 6 when that spiritual evolution gets to a point of culmination with "man" (Adam) being created.

This who narrative of Creation is all understood as a pattern or as a blueprint for how the spiritual creation takes place. It appears to me that Islam is the manifestation of the "fowls of the heavens" because Islam also came forth in the 5th Millennia and the two primary levels of spiritual glory available on Day 5 of Creation is the "fishes" and the "fowls". Without any doubt the Christians are fishes, but it is less apparent to me that Islam identifies themselves with free flying living beings that roam the heavens. But, so far as I can tell, most all Islamic nations have their own independent governmental systems. Thus, they are their own source of governance, which is the heavenly realm.

So, when we come to the creation of Adam, the context is we have an abundant amount of "spiritual life" manifested as a whole cosmology of "fishes", "fowls", "creeping things", "beasts", etc. that are all created from the fires of spiritual rebirth to that level of spiritual glory. They are all, in many respects, angelic creations. They are the means by which angelic forces are ministering to humanity in an effort to bring "life" at some level of glory to them.

Unfortunately, it appears many if not most were a bit egocentric because when God brings the evolutionary process to its apex in bringing forth "man" in the exact same image, stature, likeness, etc. to God they recoil and do not wish to place themselves under the dominion of "man". They view themselves as having been created by fire, which is the spiritual resurrection of the Holy Ghost. And, they see Adam as simply being an ordinary man who is not composed of any spiritual life, which actually was not true. God also breathed into Adam the "breath of life" which was also the same process of spiritual rebirth/resurrection, only in Adam's case it was the complete fullness of the Father. In their pride they blinded themselves to consider the level of spiritual glory God gave to Adam to be foolishness. They only viewed his fleshly component and rejected his spiritual component.

Thus, many of the angels who had been given a level of spiritual glory, rejected Adam and vowed to fight against Him. Paul talks about this part of the narrative in Romans 11 starting about verse 18. He talks about how when the foundation of the new creation was being laid that God was among the people in the flesh and that they were all offered the full understanding of the fullness of the Father. But, they considered it foolishness. And, even though they knew Adam and were personally acquainted with Him, they did not glorify Him for who He truly was. They rejected him. And, it says, they instead held to the worship of the "creeping things" etc. This simply means that they wished to hold to their lesser level of spiritual glory that the "creeping things" symbolized. They only went so far and simply could not spiritually evolve any farther than that. They were blinded and couldn't see that in God's eyes this is what they were actually doing. They fancied themselves as the apex of God's creation and ended up rejecting the very thing their whole religion was geared to point them to.

Look at the Gospel of Jesus. It was all about the "Good News" to prepare the people to accept the Father's Kingdom that would eventually be established. To whom does God give dominion over all things? He gives that to Adam. So, all of these "fishes" were being taught to look for the future advent of the new Adam who shall bring in a new Creation and give you a place in "heaven" with Him. But, when He does finally come, they reject Him and turn away, thus denying themselves the very object of their whole religion. So, instead of being brought into a state of paradise, they collectively become the "snake in the grass" and bite Adam's heel and cause Him to fall back (transgress). But, Adam doesn't remain down. That same heel shall crush their head because Adam is redeemed and overcomes His fall and He does gain the victory over the Kingdom He is given.

So, the source of the Satanic hosts that fight against Adam having His dominion are those who are of the various levels of spiritual creation that lead up to the evolution of Adam. They are jealous and they do not want to accept that a greater level of light and knowledge (spiritual resurrection) has been given to Adam. They consider Him and his alleged knowledge and authority are foolishness.

So, at the end of the day, here's where it is at right now for everyone. All those who have a level of belief in God and who have devoted themselves are to some degree of glory a resurrected being on the spiritual level. We have a wide array of spiritual life in the form of "fishes", "fowls", "creeping things", etc. We have Day 6 now behind us so we should already have the manifestation of "man" having been placed in a new Garden of Eden and who was given dominion over all of the existing spiritual life. We should see Him tasked to catalog and "name" all of those "creatures". We should also see Him having a time of trouble where His dominion is rejected by most and we should see the "angels" rebel and fight against Him, despite the fact that He is there to bring them all into Paradise and fulfill the hopes and ambitions of their whole spiritual faith. It's a terrible irony.

So, Satan was a collective body of angels who combined against Adam and who refused to glorify Him as the apex of God's Creation to whom God gave dominion over all things. In short, Satan is who gets his head crushed for shooting not himself in the foot, but in shooting his King in the foot, so to speak. Thus, figuratively speaking, Satan shot himself in the foot because of his foolish pride and jealousy. Adam was actually a being of greater glory and of the fire but Satan refused to acknowledge this glory and claimed Adam was merely of mud. However, we know that Satan was a liar from the beginning. So, we shouldn't believe that his point of view to claim what he did of Adam was the correct point of view. Satan simply failed to recognize that Adam was a superior being in every way because of his own pride and arrogance.

This very narrative is playing out literally right now as the cycle repeats. A new foundation for the "world to come" is already underway, but Adam is in a fallen state and Cain (Lucifer) has usurped the throne and is currently trying to take all of the Father's glory to himself. This is why there is such evil and corruption in governmental powers that were originally ordained to establish peace and righteousness in the earth. Adam needs to be recognized for who and what He truly is and empowered to pull down Cain from his usurpation. But, this cannot happen until all of the angels awaken to the reality of who and what Adam is and give Him the oblation that God ordained Him to receive. Then, they can assist Adam in establishing the Kingdom in victory and usher in a golden age of peace. I believe Islam will be of great assistance in assisting the Father to gain the victory.

Salaam,

You may want to ponder on this verse if you believe in the ayaats of the Quran.

672 The One who has created death and life, that He may test you, which of you will do better works? He is the Noble, the Forgiving.

Salaam,
Bender

Wow! This is a miraculous confirmation!

This is what the version of the Qur'an English translation I use says surrounding that passage

1 Blessed is He in Whose hand is the kingdom, and He has power over all things,
2 Who created death and life that He may try you -- which of you is best in deeds; and He is the Mighty, the Forgiving,
3 Who created the seven heavens one above another; you see no incongruity in the creation of the Beneficent God; then look again, can you see any disorder?

It is into Adam's hand that God gives the Kingdom!
This is why there are those who are jealous. They knew what that meant.
It also says that in connection with being given dominion over the Kingdom it also confirms that Adam was ultimately given power over all things, and goes on to say that it is Adam who creates death and life (anew) and that Adam is who tries (judges) us all. This happens when Adam gives all the "creatures" their new "names". Our fates are fore-ordained in conjunction with what name we are given. Some are to become "fishes" (Christians), etc.

It also uses a label that I'm familiar with being applied to the role Adam will fulfill once He is redeemed from physical and spiritual death. Adam is the "One Mighty and Strong" who shall set in order all things pertaining to Zion after the Man of Sin has usurped things for a time. 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. Adam returns to put down a standing apostasy, which apostasy resulted from Adam's transgression and fall and to Cain/Lucifer usurping the throne while Adam was in a fallen state.

Do recall, Adam isn't just a single individual person. Adam is a being of flesh and bone, which means this is a group of individuals who are given the High Priesthood of Melchizedek after the Order of the Son of God in order to perform all of these duties and responsibilities Adam was given. So, it isn't power that a person or even people hold in and of themselves. It is only power that manifests through them as they are brought unto a fullness of the understanding of how the heavens are created anew. It is Adam who totally reorganizes the next cycle of Creation and fore-ordains the fates of all souls in the resurrection. This is why at the end of Adam's life he could prophesy all things whatsoever that would befall His posterity until the end of time, which means until the end of that next cycle of creation. And, when that cycle is coming to a close a new Adam is manifested who goes through the same cycle of self-re-creation.

Peace kalixguru,

Very controversial idea you have, but it was nevertheless interesting to read. I do not know if I am ready to agree although the story was intriguing.

God bless you

Thank you for giving it your time and attention. The obvious crux of this narrative is based upon taking the 6 days of Creation as pertaining to the 6 Millennial periods we have had according to Biblical reckoning of time since the last "beginning".

And, incidentally, if it is the Al-Kitaab you wish to tap into and read in plainness, then this gives you the keys of interpretation to open up this "book within the books", so to speak.

It is upon this basis that all world religions based on the faith of Abraham can come to terms with their place in the overall order of things. The creation account itself is the master blueprint for how a single cycle of Creation plays out. At the end of one cycle is the judgment "day", when Adam gives all the "creatures" their "new name" and a whole new cycle of Creation is organized and fore-ordained.

So, the question of who the "We" in the Qur'an pertains to is the being of flesh and bone that undergoes a process of self-re-creation. It involves spiritual union of various members who come together in a union of covenant that enables them to become "one flesh".

This is God. Adam, upon His redemption, creates (organizes) all of the "creatures" (souls of humanity) into a new religious/political/genealogical cosmos that shall play out in yet another cycle as we enter into a new heavens and a new earth. That cycle shall end with the generation of a new Adam who shall die and self-re-create in order for another cycle to play out, and so on and so on.

All those individual souls who understand Al-Kitaab in its fullness and who can see how all the truths in all of the branches of the Abrahamic faiths tie together into one seamless garment of truth and who receive the power and dominion to carry out all of the duties given to Adam are the members of Adams body. They are angels who together as a collective are literally God. Adam is our Father and our God.

And, it is those who refuse to reverence and pay respects to Adam that God has ordained Him to receive who find themselves in darkness and error. I love how the Qur'an makes this teaching about Adam so clear.

Note to the reader
I do not come from an Islamic background at all. What I have learned about Adam has been without the assistance of the Qur'an. But, what I am finding to my amazement is that in every point, the Qur'an is providing 100% confirmation of the controversial truths that Christianity rejects outright.

I am so grateful for the Qur'an because without it there wouldn't be a strong second witness to most everything I have discovered. It appears to validate and point to the destination of the Father's Kingdom, which is Adam's Kingdom. All those who do find their way into the Kingdom will be those who can overcome the dogmatism of their various sects and embrace all truth. I hope my words here will contribute to this becoming a reality for many devout Muslims as well as Christians.

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful words Ahmad. Peace unto you too.

I can understand this position, and it makes a reasonable case, especially with regard to the aspect of unity. However, how does this position of godhood (divinity) continue after death? For example, if God is composed of flesh, blood and bone, and Adam and Eve were made in his image and likeness, then doesn't that mean God is capable of 'dying' just like us?
My understanding is that the entire plan necessitates that God, in terms of being a body of flesh and bone, be capable of 'dying'. God keeps the very same laws that He gives.
When you look at Jehovah and Israel as marriage partners and you see that Israel was an adulterous bride and was 'stoned to death' (which was carried out when she was driven out of her promised land and scattered per Ezekiel 23) it would be unlawful for Jehovah to ever receive Israel as a bride again. However, when the husband also dies, then the woman is released from the 'law of her husband' and so she then becomes eligible to remarry anyone again. This is including her former husband if he is able to come back to life.
Therefore, in order for their to be a 'new covenant' (new marriage) between Jehovah and Israel, Jehovah had to die and to come back to life. After Jehovah's death, then Israel would be able to enter into that new marriage. This is one of the most critical things Jesus accomplished. He offered himself as a sacrifice to stand in Jehovah's place as Jehovah in order so that all of Israel would be eligible.
However, without going into too much detail, that wasn't everything that had to be accomplished. Life and death involve both physical and spiritual aspects and Jesus only carried out the physical. He was a lesser fulfillment that foreshadows the complete fulfillment yet to come. Which the Qur'an clearly points out.
If we can expect God's Word to be complete upon this subject, then we must believe that the complete fulfillment is also right in front of our noses and we just have to connect the dots to see it in plainness. As I see it, Adam is who carries it out on both the physical and spiritual aspects.
So, Israel isn't completely eligible until after Adam comes in the 6th Millennia and is cast out of the new Garden (new Jerusalem) and dies physically and spiritually, yet is redeemed from this state and regains His throne in victory. It is at this point when everything is fulfilled, contrary to what Christians think. Then, as a victorious King who overcomes both physical and spiritual death that a 'new bride' can be received on both a physical and spiritual level. Therefore, if Adam comes right at the end of the 6th Millennia, and His flesh and bone life spans almost one thousand years, what we see is Adam redeemed during the 7th Millennium as a victorious King over the Kingdom that God has given to Him. Upon Adam's redemption, He is the vehicle through which God re-creates Himself. Thus, you also have a brand new birth of a brand new cycle of Creation as well. So, you have both Day 7 (the Millennium) and Day 1 of the new cycle overlapping.
So, if we look at it in these terms, we should expect to be able to find somewhere a new flesh and bone manifestation of Adam who enters into a Garden of Eden but who transgresses and is driven out and who undergoes a period of punishment and death, but who eventually completely is transformed and redeemed and who regains all of the original and former glory He was ordained to have. And, that this body of authority shall institute and establish a governmental system that will bring in a thousand year 'golden age' of peace, for those who are in that society.

Also, what about the origination of God? In the Quran, God is also mentioned individually, with words like "I" and "Me". If this is referring to a unity, then it can be regarded as a contextual singularity, depending on the interpretation. However, it also appears to convey the idea that God, perhaps, is an individual person who works alongside a group, possibly being the figurehead (or leader) for them. If that's the case, then it raises some additional questions. For example, was there always a pantheon of divinities, or was there initially one god who had children (or something of the sort)? Did the current divinity (YHVH, Allah, etc.) inherit his position from someone else? What makes him greater than everyone else, to the degree of being called 'supreme' or 'almighty'?

The context of holy writ should be looked at as being default pertaining to only a single cycle of Creation, which cycle lasts only about 7 thousand years. God has undergone self-re-creation over and over and over for billions of years, etc. As I see it, the theory of evolution starts to touch upon these questions. Religion only addresses the necessities of what it takes to carry out a single cycle, whereas science is where everything else is addressed. You are asking both a scientific and philosophical question now. For example, can Love ever die? Yes and no. Love as an absolute principle and potentiality is eternal in the literal sense. But, Love in the hearts of man can be extinguished. Only in that respect can you say that Love dies. I hope this helps clarify things some.

Peace,

Not all of the Christians today believe Jesus is the son of God, even if the Church propagandize this view. I was a unitarian Christian before I discovered the Quran.

Although you are right, the trinitarian Christians are in majority, there is no way of denying that.

I think, when the Quran was released, Christianity was not as badly affected by the corrupt church and less Christians held this blasphemous belief of Jesus being God's son.

I think many Christians believe Jesus is the son of God out of ignorance and not intentionally. Many are really sincere and righteous people had it not been for their thinking that Jesus is a divine savior. Many Christians are perhaps better than many traditional Muslims on several points, maybe even "Quranists".

I believe it is easier to convince a Christian that Jesus is not God's son than to have a traditional Muslim change his ways in glorifying Muhammad doing practically the same thing as Christians with Jesus.

Many people revere Jesus because they are mislead by the Church and the Bible's passages in the New Testament and do not do it intentionally. They are not enlightened. I am sorry for those who are mislead by the works of the evil one without perceiving.

God and the Holy Spirit is true by the way, only that Jesus has no part as the third.

I know a few people who are still unitarian Christians and they live in my home country of Sweden. Problem is that they deny the Quran to be sent by God, but they are very righteous in other ways, probably living better than many people in the Quranist community. They are still good friends of mine and I am happy to chat about the Bible and Jesus and all other messengers with them.

I am sure there are Christians living today who are destined for Heaven, maybe even higher Heaven. Remember, apart from belief in God and a life after death, the personality and how you interact with others is most important for Him, and these people well fulfill these parts.

God bless you

The first thing Christians fail to do is realize what their claim that Jesus is the Son of God really means to start with. If everyone would back off and realize that there are different ways to become someone's son or daughter than what we know as physical procreation, then perhaps we could get somewhere. It isn't so much that people are wrong, its just that they don't have clarity and precision to distill things down into something plain and practical that everyone can agree upon.

The problem is that clarity and precision are missing.

From my point of view all of it can be reconciled into a uniform view, but this places me in the unfortunate position of challenging significant aspects of everyone and so even though it is "no man's land" it is really the only place to stand and be right with God and the truth.

In their minds they believe that the 'people of the book' are not believers and will end up in hell. So why would they adopt such a label for themselves. All they need to do is to come towards the book that has been sent to them and read it. Their desertion of the book may have something to do with their arrogance.

I think you missed the point that they were trying to make. In Allah's eyes they had departed from "the book" but in their own eyes they were just and correct.

His point isn't that they should automatically consider themselves one way or another, but to take heed and learn that people can think they are yet just and correct but be departed from "the book" in the eyes of Allah.

In short, the crux of his question is if a sect or denomination of a religion assumes they are just and correct in the eyes of Allah and they are not walking in humility and being very mindful of the warnings given in "the book" that the same negative situation can happen to them as well.

This was an absolutely correct principle and his suggestion will enable many to be rightly guided who are presently assuming they are just and correct in the eyes of Allah. The very first indication that someone has departed from Allah is if they posture themselves to others as being "beyond reproach".

My question is
In the quran allah the most merciful says,
"And we do not punish unless we have sent a messenger"
And also says " we don't treat anyone with unjust"
Verily as muslims we believe allah doesn't treat anyone with unjust
What about the christians who never heard the true meaning of islam , we can't knock them because that's how they were brought up and only allah can guide them
It isn't fair, and then on top of that allah doesn't accuse anyone unless evidence is proven against him
We as muslims must believe allah is the most merciful the most kind
And he loves us,
What are your thoughts
Because its diffrent if someone knows islam is the truth and then they follow there desires
But what if they never heard its correct form
Also there are stories where a muslim man marries a christian, and later she becomes muslim because she wanted to study her husbands religion to see why he is so kind, patient and has good traits
So are u telling me muslims cannot marry christians who go to church and so forth, because they worship idols?, when the quran was revealed there were actually people worshipping idols like real idols
Christians don't do that. They may have been mislead about the thought that they think jesus died on the cross, but they don't worship idols
I need someone who has some great intellect on this, I don't want any stubborn responses , I'm really seeking to learn knowledge on this situation

I believe when you observe the pattern of the creation account you can see that God takes joy and pleasure in all of the various forms of life that have their habitation in His world. If you judge the fishes based upon what the fowls are responsible to do then it is a simple matter to judge that a fish makes for a terrible fowl. The same goes in the reverse. A fowl would make for a terrible fish. God judges the fishes by what the fishes are supposed to be and according to the circumstances that fishes are in.

Now, if you draw a parallel between what appears to be descriptions of the creation of our physical reality and apply it such that you can paint in your mind a picture of a religious or spiritual cosmology instead of our literal physical cosmology then you can start to get a better idea of the "big picture" that Allah is performing. So, for example, let's say that the Christians are represented by the "fishes" (they do use that symbol) and that Islam is represented by the "fowls" of the air. God judges Christians based upon what is spoken to them in the New Testament. They are submersed in the "waters" of the governance of men. Islam on the other hand has largely had the ability to be under the governance of Allah through the various theocratic governments. Unlike the Christians, Muslims have had a greater level of freedom to soar into the heavens by being able to implement a higher level of compliance with God's grand design for mankind.

So, how does Allah react when a "fish" takes notice of a majestic "fowl" gliding and soaring freely in the heavens and wishes to do the same? Allah takes no jealousy and enables the fish to shed its scales and He gives it wings and to fly into the heavens, if that is their desire and the put forth the efforts required to undergo that transformation. The same can be said of a bird who looks to the waters as a place of mystery, beauty and fascination and they wish to exchange their wings for fins and to explore the depths of the oceans and seas. God is not jealous here either and allows for a soul to make this transformation if that is their sincere desire. The important thing to remember is that if you are a fish then you are accountable to be a fish, and likewise for a fowl. Each shall be judged based upon their choices and the standard of truth they elect to subject themselves to.

I think we can all agree that there are both good and evil "fishes" and that there are also good and evil "fowls" and that Allah is saddened by evil no matter where it is found.

Peace!

I have noticed this topic coming up every now and again. The term Al-Kitab could be thought of as referring to many things but here I see a verse which clarifies surely

{53}
And certainly We gave Musa the guidance, and We made the children of Israel inherit the Book,
{54}
A guidance and a reminder to the men of understanding.

Now what did the children of Israel inherit? It is of course, the Torah, Moses' tablets. They inherited the custodianship of the Torah, THE guidance to THE entire human population of the world. Certainly a grand task/responsibility and certainly many did fail in their duty but certainly many did succeed. It could have gone to any nation amongst man but it went to the children of Israel specifically. And a monumental decision to do so, for it wrote the last three milleniums of the stories of our lives.

{38}
We said Go forth from this (state) all; so surely there will come to you a guidance from Me, then whoever follows My guidance, no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.

Of course, that guidance mentioned here is intrinsically Al-Kitab. I believe this settles the debate surely, what do you guys think?

The Al-Kitaab is a book within the holy books, so to speak. It is concealed or hidden behind seals such that if you do not have the ability to remove or decipher the seals then you will not have the ability to open up the Al-Kitaab. So, it isn't just the Torah or the Injeel or the Qur'an itself, but rather it is woven in and throughout these holy books.

I believe Al-Kitaab is the book spoken of in Revelation chapter 5 where it says

Revelation 5
1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Therefore, we can identify who the Root of David is who shall establish the Father's Kingdom in the end times because he will have prevailed to be found worthy to open up the Al-Kitaab and make this Guidance from Allah plain and clear. The knowledge from the Al-Kitaab enables all who acquire it to participate in the establishment of the Father's Kingdom that Jesus taught all to look for and pray for the coming of. Jesus, as the Lion of Judah, had the knowledge of the Al-Kitaab and so too shall the Father, the Root of David, have it when He comes to establish His Kingdom here on earth. It is the understanding of the Al-Kitaab that shall rally the true believers and lovers of Allah to their eternal salvation.

I would like to add that it will be a revelation of truth that has been in front of everyone's eyes but evading everyone's focus. It will be a gathering of truths that will be like gathering together many bits and pieces of a sword that have been scattered among many religious sects and denominations awaiting the time to be forged back together. Somewhat like the sword that Tolkien had Lord Aragorn wield as the leader in the fight for middle earth's salvation.

This "book" will be hated by all who are dogmatically tied to their own religious sect or denomination because it shall also oppose very significant dogmas in all religious sects and denominations. Only those who have the mind and humility of a little child who are willing to listen and be taught this great revelation will overcome their own self-inflicted blindness due to pride and false traditions handed down to them.

This is also my concern for those who are only focused on the Qur'an and who neglect the other holy books. The knowledge of the Al-Kitaab shall unite and make clear all of the holy books, not just the Qur'an. And, I also believe if you omit any of the holy books you remove the power of the additional witnesses. And, most importantly, if you remove the first holy book, the Torah, that you render yourself unable to open the Al-Kitaab at all because the seals of the Al-Kitaab are in the Torah itself.