I had boys throwing stones at me a while ago after I slapped one of them in the face when they were trying to harass me. In general, kids here harass anyone who looks in any way different, it doesn't necessarily have to do with clothing. I hear obscenities daily and even when I'm covered from head to toe.

This thread is as long as it is, because the men are afraid of losing their authority over the women. They are afraid of losing their ability to guilt us into dressing a certain way. It's all about control.

That's exactly what it is about. And that's why some men on here get so emotional, aggressive, and insulting. They can't deal with the fact that we don't take their attempts at shaming and scaring us seriously.

BUT Allah does not give them freedom to claim it is from Allah.

This is getting childish and ridiculous.

Going to the beach in a bikini is absolutely okay with Allah. http//foolstown.com/sm/rev.gif http//www.intercot.com/discussion/images/smilies/vacation.gif http//i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj184/befje/smileys%203/bth_bf-smileytire.gif http//www.troublefreepool.com/images/smilies/jason/smiley-sport038.gif sun

There, I said it. You believe God doesn't give me the freedom to do so, fine. That doesn't affect my opinion or the fact that you can't censor me. Salam.

They are FREE to do what they want, but they are NOT FREE to claim it is from Allah.

Of course they are free to claim it's from God, and they are doing so. There's nothing you can do to take this freedom away.

Are you a man or a woman, mmmm? If you're male, why do you care what women wear on the beach?

I'm starting to think the bikini must really be something very dangerous and powerful if the mere mentioning of wearing it provokes so many emotional responses from men, so much fear and anger and hatred. Interesting.
hmm

peace

Why are there so many men coming to this thread telling women how to dress and where to go or not to go? It's bizarre. I can't for the life of me imagine entering a discussion about men's swimming attire, passionately insisting men should dress a certain way, or stay out of the public space.
wow
I doubt that any of the women participating in or reading this thread is going to change their mind because of any of the arguments they are reading here.

Those of you guys who feel that they are not capable of dealing with the temptation of seeing a woman in a bikini ? there's a simple solution. Just stay away from beaches and poolsides. You have absolutely no right to demand that we adjust our dress and behaviour based on your personal preferences, based on your male gaze. If you have a problem with women in bathing suits or short clothes that's just that ? your problem. Don't try to make it mine by shrouding your insecurities and inappropriate demands in phrases about religious obligation or social responsibility.

Why would a pious man/woman g? to a place where almost all people are atleast half-naked? How do a believer feel when she/he knows there are disbelieving men/women having sexual fantasies about your respected person?

Why would anyone go to a beach? Because it's wonderful to swim in the sea, feel and smell the air, be out in nature. I'm going to spend Christmas on my favourite beach here in Sinai and can't wait to go.

Regarding sexual fantasies ? I feel more violated walking the streets of Cairo fully dressed than being on a beach wearing a bikini.

I'm not going to reply to the rest of your statements because it sounds very funny, and since it also clear that....

The fact that women have lots of "fear" (worriness) in themselves, is a clear proof that they lack of mental strength.

Women worry about everything, including shoes, makeup and all tiny issues. They even worry what people think about them on those very small issues, which most men think is quite ridiculous.

Most of them even need to communicate or talk to people for releasing their tensions. They need someone to hear and listen to their feelings.

Further and in general, their accomplishment are not due to their self interest, but more because of they "fear" of something (humiliation, expectation from people they love, fear of not being accepted by society or co-workers, fear people will hate them, fear of no equal treatments etc.).

Fear and worriness is dominant in their life.

So instead of addressing my points you post a paragraph mocking and insulting women and claim you won't reply because women worry too much about each and everything? hypno What does one have to do with the other? It looks to me as if you're just looking for a way out because you're starting to realize that you don't really know how to present a credible counterargument.

So it is becoming an insult simply because I don't agree with your opinions? amazing... laugh

Please re-read your own posts.

You wrote

? Women possess "less mental strength", that's why men are "inventors and pioneers" and we supposedly aren't.

? We will stay with an abuser "even if he beats us to death". Tolerating abuse is a sign femininity, not of low self-esteem or psychological problems. So according to you, God created women to be doormats.

? Women have many problems with "self confidence" and "self esteem", and that's why they wear makeup and need pretty clothings etc.

? I'm lacking self-esteem, mental strength and "confidence in expressing my opininon".

Those statements are not merely an expression of a different opinion, they are patronizing and insulting.

Women worry about everything, including shoes, makeup and all tiny issues. They even worry what people think about them on those very small issues, which most men think is quite ridiculous. Most of them even need to communicate or talk to people for releasing their tensions. They need someone to hear and listen to their feelings. Further and in general, their accomplishment are not due to their self interest, but more because of they "fear" of something (humiliation, expectation from people they love, fear of not being accepted by society or co-workers, fear people will hate them, fear of no equal treatments etc.). Fear and worriness is dominant in their life.

I don't worry about shoes or makeup and know few women who do. hmm

I established a successful career because I absolutely love what I'm doing and find fulfillment in it, not out of fear of humiliation ? what an absurd idea.

I know countless men who could be described exactly the way you're describing women above. What in the world makes you think that you are an expert on women and know us better than we know ourselves?

Abused by women or their wife? I guess you are taking 1-2 cases as your authority against the general conditions of life known by billions of people, and since thousand years ago ... which I find it is not a reasonable conclusion or not a serious argument, logically speaking.

Unfortunately, your assumptions are wrong. If you don't believe me I suggest you use google and educate yourself. Here are a few links to get you started

?
About two in five of all victims of domestic violence are men, contradicting the widespread impression that it is almost always women who are left battered and bruised, a new report claims.

Men assaulted by their partners are often ignored by police, see their attacker go free and have far fewer refuges to flee to than women, says a study by the men's rights campaign group Parity.

The charity's analysis of statistics on domestic violence shows the number of men attacked by wives or girlfriends is much higher than thought. Its report, Domestic Violence The Male Perspective, states "Domestic violence is often seen as a female victim/male perpetrator problem, but the evidence demonstrates that this is a false picture."
?

http//www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

http//www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/male_victims_of_domestic_violence.html

http//www.mayoclinic.com/health/domestic-violence-against-men/MY00557

http//www.helpguide.org/mental/domestic-violence-men-abused-by-women.htm

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men

http//www.news.com.au/national/hidden-epidemic-of-women-beating-up-men/story-e6frfkvr-1225869842575

http//jezebel.com/5509717/domestic-violence-are-women-as-abusive-as-men

Yes, men and boys get abused and this is not an exception but a sad reality. Men get abused by other men, and they also get abused by women.

There are many abusive women out there. Maternal abuse is a big issue in this world, and sons as well as daughters are suffering from it. I know you don't like to hear about these facts because they don't support your fantasies about soft, weak, and emotional women who are always loving and caring towards their offspring and spouse, but whether you like it or not, this is reality.

But all of men's strengths are nullified if you are not given birth and nuturing by the woman!
?

We enjoined the human being to honor his parents. His mother bore him, and the load got heavier
and heavier. It takes two years (of intensive care) until weaning. You shall be appreciative of Me, and of your
parents. To Me is the ultimate destiny.

Anyone who has raised children knows what a difficult duty that can be.

Thank God for women because their role in our existence cannot be appreciated enough.

You talk about women but your posts sounds to me as if you're exclusively referring to mothers. Are women only to be appreciated if they are mothers? Aren't there many other things women should be appreciated for? Isn't there a multitude of different roles women can fulfill?

This reminds me of the often heard phrase that "Islam respects women as mothers, daughters, and wives". What about women who aren't/don't want to be mothers and wives? What about those whose parents died or who cut off ties with them? This sort of rhetoric gives the impression that women are only respected and valued if they are attached to a man and/or children.

hypno

By the way, you repeatedly make a weird ending comment on your reply, such as "I am surprised you don't seem to be aware of this.".
I'm sure you can express your opinion without these kind of comments ...
or maybe it is a sign lack of self esteem or mental strength.

First of all, there was nothing insulting in my comment and nothing that warrants an attempt at a personal attack. Many of your statements in this thread are deeply patronizing, insulting, and offensive to women but I don't see any of us making derogatory remarks about your lack of character, strength, or self-esteem.

Secondly, I stand by what I wrote because I am very puzzled and, to be honest, shocked, that you don't see m to have any awareness of this issue.

Not only has the connection between body and mind, between exercise and mental health, sports and self-esteem been researched, talked, and written about extensively. It is also hard not to observe this phenomena in yourself or in others around you. Yet you criticize me for pointing out that connection and even deny that it exists.

Do you exercise regularly? Have you ever trained for a marathon, a sports competition, or set yourself any kind of goal in terms of physical exercise? If yes, didn't you observe that your self confidence and mood improved along with your stamina?

Pushing yourself beyond your comfort levels and enjoying better health, higher stress resistance, a nicer body etc. can and does help people develop self-confidence and mental strength. If you haven't experienced this in yourself, how about the world around you? Have you never observed how exercise can help people improve their life on many levels?

You are obviously an educated person with access to books, TV, magazines, newspapers, and the internet. I find it hard to believe that you've never come across this issue, never read about it, watched a documentary, never seen any research.
confused
Reading your posts here gives me the impression that you are quite young and don't have much life experience ? or that you don't reflect much on the things happening around you and don't listen to people with attention and empathy. I might be wrong but you also give the impression that you're not having many meaningful conversations with women and are lacking serious and deep relationships with them. Otherwise I can't explain why your descriptions of men and women have so very little to do with reality.

Women are not born or created by God with a tolerance for abuse, weakness, or more patience. Again, I wonder about your lack of real life experiences and research. Abuse is a vicious circle, people who get abused as children often turn into abusers themselves, or search out abusers as partners. Whether a person becomes an abuser or a victim of abuse is NOT a question of gender or genetics.

You are not born with more "mental strength" than half of the world's population. I don't believe for a second that you are more rational or mentally stronger than me because you have a different set of chromosomes.

or.. mental strength is the ability to overcome mental resistance (negativity.. I can't do this, I can't do that.. I'm afraid of this, I'm afraid of that... I can't.. I can't.. I can't.. I can't.. and so on), preferably from unusual experiences.

Negativity and lack of self confidence are not a matter of genetics or gender. The foundation for a healthy sense of self are being laid in childhood and youth. Whether a child grows into a person with a healthy self-confidence or a person full of doubt and fear depends hugely on his/her upbringing.

There are many people who were raised by neglecting, uncaring, toxic, or abusive families but are able to free themselves from negative thinking, fear, and lack of self-confidence. This sort of spiritual and psychological work takes a lot of determination, persistance, and courage ? in other words mental strength. Mental strength is NOT never experiencing crisis, doubt, or fear. Mental strength is overcoming those restrictions and growing into a better human being.

or.. mental strength is the ability to overcome mental resistance (negativity.. I can't do this, I can't do that.. I'm afraid of this, I'm afraid of that... I can't.. I can't.. I can't.. I can't.. and so on), preferably from unusual experiences. Things that are accomplished by exercising or repeated actions are "psychological strength". Gaining self belief through experiences and routines. It's got nothing to do with "mental, it is "belief" that are accomplished from routines, from experiences.

I asked you earlier to define what exactly you see as "mental strength" because I felt it's important to establish whether we are talking about the same concept or not. I posted a definition and gave my own opinion as well. You have refused to properly reply, or offer an other explanation or definition. Instead, you just keep criticizing my defintions and staying rather dubious.

"Rapist" easily fell into the category of "Psychopath" due to number 2 and 3.

Myth Rapists are crazy, deranged, abnormal perverts. They are lonely men without female partnership.

Fact Rape is not a crime of spontaneous passion. Studies show that 60 to 70% of all sexual assaults are planned. Most rapists are married and having consensual sexual relations while assaulting other women. Rapists themselves do not describe their motivation in terms of sexual gratification, but in terms of hatred and conquest. Sex is used as a weapon to inflict violence, humiliation, and degradation on a victim. Indeed, rapists have said that rape is ?lousy sex.? Sexual offenders come from all educational, occupational, racial and cultural backgrounds. They tend to test differently from the normal, well-adjusted male only in having a greater tendency to express violence and rage.

The best way is to 'avoid them', but that do not justify the 'guiltiness' of the Psychopath, where actually they have no sense of self-guilt at all and can easily blame others through deceit and strong argument.

How should people avoid being raped?

I liked the marathon example since I feel running a marathon is a wonderful metaphor for perserverance through mental strength. Running a marathon is not about your body, it's all about your mind and the fight with your mind.

Again, this is logic to you?

How does "stamina" is related to "mental strength" (state of mind), ie. how it is affecting your internal or self esteem and character?

I explained it very clearly. Running a marathon is as much about mental strength as it is about physical stamina. Without mental strength you won't finish a marathon.

Likewise, you can't develop physical stamina without mental strength because it requires dedication, goal-orientation, discipline, and the will to push yourself further. By the way, exercising, i.e. developing physical stamina, has been proven to help fight depression and raise self-esteem. So it is indeed interlinked with "self esteem and character". I am surprised you don't seem to be aware of this.

How about men, can they be abused or beaten?
Try abuse men you will get a blow on the face, on the spot. Because they normally don't depend on emotions and how people feel about something.

I hate to break it to you, but there are many men being abused. Likewise, there are many female abusers. This fairy tale world of rough and tough men who will punch anyone in the face, and docile, dependent women who will tolerate all sort of abuse does not really exist. The real world is way more complex.

As for men "not depending on emotions" see my post above. That's absolutely not true.

Women have many problems with "self confidence" and "self esteem", and that's why they wear makeup and need pretty clothings etc.

Many human beings have problems with their self confidence, it's not a particularly female problem. True, some women might use clothes and makeup to mask their lack of self-esteem; likewise some men use expensive cars, or other accessories to make up for their lack of self-esteem. Our societies in general are also much more critical of women than of men which makes it harder for girls and women to develop a healthy self-esteem. This, however, has nothing to do with femaleness in general. Women are not genetically hard-wired to be less self-confident. If anything, I would say that women in general need more mental strength in order to survive in this world than men.

However, I don't really understand from your reply whether you agree or disagree with the definition I posted. If mental strength is "the mind's ability to make the body obey even in the face of opposition or fatigue, either physical or emotional" then surely mothers must possess a lot of mental strength, wouldn't you agree? So why should mental strength be a particular trait of males?

I liked the marathon example since I feel running a marathon is a wonderful metaphor for perserverance through mental strength. Running a marathon is not about your body, it's all about your mind and the fight with your mind.

If what you say about women was true, then women would be much less likely than men to ever finish a marathon. Which, of course, is not the case.
hmm

Emotional strength have its pair or weaknesses, so as everything else in this world, including mental strength. There is no single thing in this world that have 100% strength or 100% weakness. It is a strength when dealing with their children, and it is a weakness when dealing with love or abuse. That's why we have Islam, to learn how to balance all these kind of things.

The point is women are able to handle their emotions pretty well and this area is their greatest strength... Men are lack of emotions and relying on logic. Most men are not romantic but they are the troubleshooter. Women rely on emotions and how someone feels about something. Emotions is their compass of life.

I'm sorry but this stereotype does not hold truth.

Didn't you say you were interested in reading about different sorts of intelligence? I suggest you read recent research on brain science and emotions. Fact is that all human beings make most of their decisions based on emotions, even those that appear to be very "rational". There is no such thing as an "emotional" woman versus a "logical" man.

?
Historically the elegant process of logical reasoning has been viewed as a function of our disembodied mind, an activity conducted in a highly evolved part of our brain that exists for this express purpose. It was assumed that the brain structure responsible for reasoning was distinct not only from the body itself but also from the "lower" regions of the brain that govern other aspects of biological function. But all of this, Damasio argues convincingly, is entirely wrong

I propose that human reason depends on several brain systems, working in concert across many levels of neuronal organization, rather than on a single brain center. Both "high-level" and "low-level" brain regions...cooperate in the making of reason.

The lower levels in the neural edifice of reason are the same ones that regulate the processing of emotions and feelings, along with the body functions necessary for an organism's survival. In turn, these lower levels maintain direct and mutual relationships with virtually every bodily organ, thus placing the body directly within the chain of operations that generate the highest reaches of reasoning, decision making, and, by extension, social behavior and creativity. Emotion, feeling and biological regulation all play a role in human reason.

Note that in Damasio's view emotion and feeling are not in opposition to reason but provide essential support to the reasoning process. The passage above also alludes to Damasio's second topic, the physiological roots of emotional expression

he essence of a feeling may not be an elusive mental quality attached to an object, but rather the direct perception of a specific landscape that of the body...

I propose that the critical networks on which feelings rely include not only the traditionally acknowledged collection of brain structures known as the limbic system but also some of the brain's prefrontal cortices, and, most importantly, the brain sectors that map and integrate signals from the body.

I conceptualize the essence of feelings as something you and I can see through a window that opens directly onto a continuously updated image of the structure and state of our body... By and large, a feeling is the momentary "view" of a part of that body landscape.

Damasio restates these themes concisely later in the book

The action of biological drives, body states and emotions may be an indispensable foundation for rationality. The lower levels in the neural edifice of reason are the same that regulate the processing of emotions and feelings, along with global functions of the body proper such that the organism can survive. These lower levels maintain direct and mutual relationships with the body proper, thus placing the body within the chain of operations that permit the highest reaches of reason and creativity. Rationality is probably shaped and modulated by body signals, even as it performs the most sublime distinctions and acts accordingly.
?

http//www.edbatista.com/2011/07/antonio-damasio-on-emotion-and-reason.html

I did a quick google search for mental strength and came up with this definition, for example

?
Mental strength is the resolve to accomplish a certain goal, but this term has slightly different definitions depending on context.

In sports, people usually think of mental strength as the resolve to force the body to finish an action even when a person is tired. Business people, on the other hand, might define mental strength in terms of standing one's ground and working hard even in the face of opposition.

Sometimes, people think of mental strength as personal strength, psychological strength, or even inner strength because of the invisible nature of this type of resolve. Many people believe that this type of strength can be exercised and built up, so there are many different programs and coaches available to help a person achieve greater mental strength.

This type of strength is best thought of as the mind's ability to make the body obey even in the face of opposition or fatigue, either physical or emotional. For example, when running a marathon, mental strength is the quality that keeps a person's legs moving even when the person is in pain. The harder the activity, the more mental endurance it takes to complete the activity.
?

http//www.wisegeek.com/what-is-mental-strength.htm

Does that sound about right? Is this how you would define the term? If yes, I don't see how it should depned on the gender whether a person possesses mental strength or not.

Nope.. it is not the sign of low self esteem, and for the same reason women can be patient with their children and give full attention to every details.

Tolerating abuse is NOT the same as being patient with your children. Tolerating abuse from a spouse can actually be very detrimental to your children. It is not a sign of mental health or high self esteem. Women living with an abuser do not need encouragement by telling them they are being emotionally strong. They need help and encouragement to free themselves from the abuse. I find your statements here very troubling.

nope

I still don't understand what exactly you mean when you speak of mental and emotional strength. Could you kindly post a definition and maybe some examples?