Salam Melly,

One thing I find can elucidate meaning is reading the wider context. Often times you'll find patchy readings, people reading one aya and saying 'ok this is what it means' without looking at where the aya is placed. To me, nothing in the Quran is accidental. There are no passing remarks. Everything contributes to our 'reading sense' as we traverse the text even if we can't comprehend it at the time.

Have a look at the context of 20/130 which I try to summarise below

20/127 God recompensing the evildoers
20/128 The generations destroyed before
20/129 If it wasn't for a kalimah preceding from Allah, they would have been destroyed.(this word 'kalimah' is VERY loaded with meaning and shouldn't be ignored here).
20/130 SO be patient with them...
20/131 and do not extend your eyes towards whats given to others
20/132 command your ppl WITH as-salaat, God gives you rizq.Why is rizq mentioned HERE for all places?

In light of this context, does this seem like timings? It doesn't to me. I think we need to be very aware of context so as to detect metaphorical language at play. Notice it's 'FA asbir' (SO be patient). If God wanted to say timings, phrases like 'kullu waqt' (all the time) would be used. There are no synonyms in the Quran nor any pointless remarks.

You might want to consider as well that this sura contains the story of musa for more than a hundred ayat. Musa's confrontation and victory over firaun resembles this passage all the way to the end. In light of that, what does tolu as-shams and ghurubiha seem like? I would ask these questions as I think they help clarify 20/130.

This Is My Take It's Nothing Special (or TIMTINS as we say in my group in FB). I am still reading and my work isn't comprehensive by any means.

wa alaykum as salam

Thank you for your suggestion.

I did look at the context and it appeared to me ( maybe this is not what Allah intended it to mean) that in 20130 the prophet is being told not to respond to the evil doers and instead he should do the opposite of what they are doing which is praising Allah.

In surah 230 ( and when, said, your lord, to the angels, indeed I, going to place, in, the earth, a vicegerent, they said, will you place, in it, who, will spend corruption, in it, and shed, the blood, while we, glorify, with your praises, and we sanctify, you,he said , indeed I, know, what, not,you know) praising Allah is the opposite of evil doing.

So in response to the people who reject the message 20124 and the ones who transgressed bounds 20127, he is told there is a term appointed 20129 therefore to be patient 20130, praise god 20130 and not long for what they have for provisions of Allah are better 20131.

In my own words Allah is telling the prophet they are going get what's coming to them so don't sweat it, just praise me (Allah), and don't be envious because I (Allah) got you and my (Allah's) provisions are better then theirs.

In summary, given the verses before and after 20130 and the verse 230, it still appears to me that 20130 is referring to timings. But, thank you for your reply and help as your suggestion gave me even better insight reviewing the surrounding verses.

I prefer to translate in 20130 as parts instead of ends, and for both there is already a word means two parts in 11114. This is because ends may denote two opposite points, where parts refers to two points one after the other. This clarifies that 11114 is talking about Salaat alFajr duration when it says .

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Salam mmkhan,

ok I see what you are saying, but i will paraphrase to make sure i am understanding where you are coming from.

11114 Tarafee= two ends

20130 ATrafa = ends plural (which implies more than two)

from this you denote that it means parts as the ends are more than two?

I am happy you pointed this out as I have missed this.

Immediately i am thinking (without really doing research and pondering) that maybe the ends/proximity's of the day/daylight are morning right after sunrise until the zenith and the time right after sunset, twilight ( since it already speaks of before sunset), or it could be as you said consecutive parts.

if it really does imply consecutive then this would mean to me , at all times as I believe Wakas eluded to.

Salaam,

I think you mixed translation of 11114 with 20130 brother. There is no mentioned of both ends in 20130 and there is no mention of glorify Him during the night.

20130
20130 So be patient over what they say and exalt with praise of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before its setting; and during periods of the night and at the ends of the day, that you may be satisfied.

I tried to classify the aayat above with colors to understand easily. Please note that purple part in Arabic is missing in the translation above. You can click on aayat number to see other translations.

• So be patient over what they say
  We are not going into its detail.

• And repeat praise of your Lord
  means to repeat something/to do something in routine at specific times. We are asked to repeat i.e., praise of your Lord before the sunrise and before it sets .

• Do your routine work sometime during night and at all parts of the day
  Sometime during night and all parts of the day means repeat/do your routine work. Please note is missing here as mentioned in red part above.

Tasbeeh = to do something repeatedly or in routine.

When we work in all parts of the day and in few hours during night, we will surely be satisfied and happy, this is what was said in 20130. Hope what I write is easy to follow and understand inshaAllah.

May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan

Wa alaykum as salam

mmkhan, I appreciate your input.

As per my initial post I am concerned with that would be classified as an end of the day.

I see from your translation that you se the word aTrafa as meaning parts, and I wanted to know how you derived this meaning, as it would then make my understanding clear and it would seem to imply that this is referring to times throughout the day as apposed to the ends.

Peace Melly,

At one time I erroneously thought that 20130 refered to salat, but when taken in
conjunctions with other similar verses it appears to be one of the reminders
to remember God always.
To be happy

Therefore, be patient in the face of their utterances, and praise and glorify
your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him,
as well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.

Surrender

All praise is due to Him in the heavens and the earth, throughout
the evening, as well as in the middle of your day.

Thankful

You shall remember Me, that I may remember you, and be thankful to Me;
do not be unappreciative.

Your Lord has decreed "The more you thank Me, the more I give you."
But if you turn unappreciative, then My retribution is severe.

Meditate

You shall remember your Lord within yourself, publicly,
privately, and quietly, day and night; do not be unaware.

Forgiveness

Therefore, be patient, for GOD's promise is true, and ask forgiveness
for your sin, and glorify and praise your Lord night and day.

These and such ayats enhance spiritual growth.

ONE GOD ONE WAY

Peace onto you hawkninetynine

Thank you for your reply.

I realize that tis verse does not deal with salaa , but what I was really trying to understand was if before sunrise was different from the first end of the day ( which is what I saw this verse to be implying) then what would the first end of the day be?

The reason I brought up Fajr salaa is because most people class it as both; one of the ends of the day and before sunrise, whereas this verse to me is saying pre sunrise and the end of the day are two completely different times. Maybe my view on the verse is eschewed, but if not then what would be the first end of the day since it wouldn't be pre sunrise?

Salam
The verse has (in my opinion) nothing to do with the timing of the Salat. It's an advice for every believer when he/she faces difficulties of insults from disbelievers to praise our Lord all the times. I tried to make a diagramm and after marking all the times for glorifications it seems, that God give us here a wonderful example of His teachings before the sun rise- (birth) in the beginning of the day (youth) , before its setting ( middle age/age) in the end of the daylight, before the dark is coming (old age) and the nights? to wake up from the daily death and remember that once we will not rise the next day... (remember the death in the nigth)
Also an allegory for the seasons ( before the new year, the spring, the summer and then the autumn and the night = winter (died season, cold , ice, frost)
All this clear my own interpretation and thoughts
peace )

alaykum as salam

mirjamnur, thank you for providing your view on the subject and I very much appreciate it.

I'm not surprised you are "thrown for a loop" on 20130. When I studied this verse in detail with regard to timings, by taking it literally I could not make it work whatever way I tried, and I tried many. I therefore concluded it most likely is hyperbole or idiom, meaning all the time or lots.

Some have claimed to make this verse work with salat timings etc but all failed when I checked them.

Wakas, I was starting to think it is also meaning all the time or a lot.

Thank you for your input

Peace Wouldn't it depend on whether Abraham and other prophets and also Prophet Muhammed were following a lunar or solar timing?

Thank you Lena for your response, can you elaborate on what the difference would be in terms of the solar and lunar calendar with regards to the ends of the day?

Salam

Peace be with you.

Unlike many here, I think that sajda IS physical prostration according to the verse you have quoted (4102), and also according to some other verses. Although, I think that the word sajda could have a multi-faceted usage of it's different meanings in accordance with the contexts throughout the Quran. But it should be taken as a physical prostration in the context of the salat/prayer verses.

People who do physical prostration to Allah, cannot be proven that their salat won't be accepted. But people who are against physical prostration and/or deem it unnecessarry to perform in their salat are always at a risk of missing out something very important for which they may lose a big deal in the hereafter.

Therefore, please don't stop doing your physical bowing down and sajda to Allah in your salat.

Peace.

I also believe sadja is physical and I too believe it is better to be safe then sorry, but I also think that sajda has mental aspects to it that can not be ignored, just as any of the other physical acts.

The way I see it is, that mind and body are connected, which is evident through life, and as long as I am doing the mental and physical then I will be ok by the will of Allah. For me, it just does not feel right if I only do one or the other, it's like i'm not complete.

654 and those who, give up hope, of, the menstruation, from , your women, if , your uncertain, waiting period for a women to remarry,three, months, and those who, not, menstruating, and are, pregnant,compensate, until, they deliver, pregnancy, and whoever, fears, Allah, he will make, for him, from, his affair, ease.

This surah is a continuation of the instructions given in 2228 for divorce. In 2228 the period of waiting is judged by a women's cycle, in which she is to wait three cycles before she can remarry. But 654 addresses how to judge the waiting period if a women is not menstruating.

This is speaking of the women who are in menopause , thats is why they have no hope of getting their menses, their waiting period is three months, as apposed to three cycles.

The next part is speaking of the other case a women would not get her menses, which is pregnancy, and in this case the waiting period is until she gives birth.

Sometimes the translations are confusing, so I translate it word for word, as for me, it makes it more clear. The word Ya'isna (ya alif seen) means to give up hope. The only women who give up all hope of menstruation is those who have gone through menopause. Young girls and pregnant women will at some point get their menses so all hope is not lost.

Salamun alaykum

Personally I don't see anything wrong with rituals as long as they are not just a mundane set of physical actions. It is my opinion that the physical acts in the Quran are accompanied by non-physical(mental) aspects.

So for example is one feels that salaa is physical then in addition to standing, bowing and prostrating(if this is what is done), one would need to have a clear mind, understand what they are saying and be mentally submissive and humble in addition to being physically humble and submissive. But I feel both the non-physical and physical acts come together to complete the whole.

The problem is that some people just do the physical acts and make them into rituals with no meaning, they are just doing but not capturing the essence of what is being done and that I believe is the real issue. Certain people feel as though the essence is more important the the physical but personally I think they are both equally important.

It is like a person saying they feel happy but not smiling or showing the signs of happiness it becomes an issue of incongruence, and actions and mental state should match up.

wa alaykum as salam

Thank you for the welcome.

I am new to this site and just beginning my study into salaa so i have lots of questions.

I will look into 97 and 2185 (although i have reviewed it before), but now I am stuck at what the first end of the day would be, as according to 20130 it cant be fajr unless fajr is really not before sunrise. But now i'm totally thrown for a loop -\

But thank you for your reply and I will look into the references you gave me.

salamun alaykum

I have a question is sajda is not physical then how did they recognize when the people had prostrated? It seems as though whatever prostration is they did it as the same time and together in groups which would be hard if it was other than physical.

4102 And when you are among them and lead them in salaa, let a group of them stand with you and let them carry their arms. And when they have prostrated, let them be behind you and have the other group come forward which has not prayed and let them pray with you, taking precaution and carrying their arms. Those who disbelieve wish that you would neglect your weapons and your baggage so they could come down upon you in one attack. But there is no blame upon you, if you are troubled by rain or are ill, for putting down your arms, but take precaution. Indeed, Allah has prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment.

Salamun alaykum

I did not read all of the responses so I am not sure if someone already brought this up.

In surah 1113 it says

Or, do they say He has forged it. Say Then bring ten surahs like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.

in Surah 223 it says

And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant, then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful

In surah 11 there are ten surahs before it. In surah 2 there is one surah before it. The fact that Allah specifies to bring ten in the eleventh surah and one in the second surah tells ME that the Fatiha is part of the original Quran and the Quran we have now is ordered as Allah has planned it.

note ***

There is another verse 1038

Or do they say, "He invented it?" Say, "Then bring forth a surah like it and call upon whomever you can besides Allah , if you should be truthful

This verse is void of the term thereof/of/from/there unto which implies that what is currently existing which in surah 2 the only surah existing before it was surah 1.

Your welcome, but actually sis I think that the link I sent was a discussion of only part of the article and not the whole thing. Sorry about that.

I think there was a previous discussion about this here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7402.10 .

I may be useful to you or maybe not

Yes, I know it is not dealing with salaat, but most people seem to view Fajr salaat as the pre sunrise salaat and one of the ends of the day, but upon reading this I am thinking that Fajr can only be one or the other, and which ever one it is i'm curious to see what others think is the other. If fajr is the pre sunrise then it cant be one of the ends of the day as this particular ayat makes a distinction between the two.

Thank you for the reply anyway, and what do you think?

Salamun alaykum

I have a question sin regard to 20130.

20130 so patient, against, what, they say, and glorify, utilizing praise, your lord, before, rising, the sun, and before, its setting, and from, hours, the night, so glorify, and ends, the daylight, that you, be satisfied.

To ME this is saying that before sunrise, before sunset and night are different times than the ends of the day. so before sunrise is not considered an end of the day as the ends of the day are stated separately. I have seen where a lot of people say that fajr is one of the ends of the day ( as per their understanding of 11114), but at the same time the Fajr salaat(however you define this) is to be done before sunset, but this can not be, as before sunset is different from the ends of the day according to this (20130) ayat.

So my question is, if Fajr salaat(however you define this) is before sunset then what would be considered the ends of the day?

I know that 20130 is speaking about the times for glorification not salaat, but i found it interesting how the timing before sunset appears to be different from that of the ends of the day. I am looking for feedback from people who have researched this subject more then I have as I am just beginning.

• I do not want this to turn into a discussion of wether salaat is physical or not, just trying to get and understanding of the timings as salaat(wether physical or not) is prescribed at specific times (4103).

Thanks in advance to the participants