Salam Good Logic,

Yes, Ive not been going to Jumma since the day I started questioning my Sunni Islam faith. I am now trying to follow what God want of me and not what men want of me. To cut the story short, I am now looked upon as somebody who is defiant of my own religion by my peers. There are no "God alone" mosque here for me to perform my Jumma prayer with people who have the same belief as me.

Salam tlihawa,

very interesting read...... but seems really hard to digest... all those verses are actually talking about trading and not worship or prayer?
I really appreciate your reply and will surely look into it much much deeper

All of the above are taken from www.quran-islam.org.

I know some people dont click on links so I took the liberty to copy and paste the articles just for the people of this forum. My purpose is just to share what Ive read.

Regards

Mikhail Matin

Salat Words

With regards to the words spoken during the Salat, and remembering that the purpose of the Salat is to commemorate and glorify the name of God alone, we find guidance in the Quran with respect to the following matters

First All the words of the Salat should be from the Quran.

Second Specific Quranic phrases are to be spoken during the Salat.

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First The words of the Salat should be from the Quran.

1- "You shall recite what is revealed to you of your Lord's Scripture (the Quran). Nothing shall abrogate His words, and you shall not find any other source beside it" 1827

This verse does not specify any one activity, as a result reciting Quranic words can be done at all times including while we are worshipping God through Salat.

2- "You shall recite what is revealed to you of the Scripture (the Quran), and observe the Salat (Contact Prayers)" 2945

This verse speaks of two activities, the recitation of the Quran and also the Salat. The fact that God speaks of the two activities in the same verse provides us with good advice to use the Quran during our Salat.

3- "They are not all the same; among the followers of the scripture there are those who are righteous. They recite God's revelations through the night while prostrating" 3113

This verse goes one step further, it speaks of the righteous and how they recite the scripture while prostrating. As we know prostrating is one of the acts of Salat, and therefore there is a stronger indication here that the words recited during the Salat must be from the scripture (in our case the Quran).

4- In 2014 we are told that the salat is observed for the purpose of commemorating (zhikr) God

"I am God; there is no other god beside Me. You shall worship Me alone, and observe the Salat l'zhikri (for commemorating Me)" 2014

We see the same word, "zhikr" of God mentioned in the following verse

"And if you zhakart (commemorate) your Lord using the Quran alone, they run away in aversion." 1746

(p.s. the word "zhikr" is the noun and the word "zhakart" is the verb)
1746 tells us that the true believers commemorate God by using the Quran alone. And since the commemoration of God is the sole purpose and core of our Salat (2014) then it is must be said that all our commemoration of God in the Salat must be by using the Quran alone.
Perhaps the above verses (2014 and 1746) together provide the strongest verdict among the four verse above to indicate that the words of the Salat must be from the Quran alone.

Second Which Quranic words to be recited during the Salat?

It must be mentioned here that except for words in items 2 and 6 (below) which are clearly mentioned in the Quran in connection to the Salat (17111), the other items (below) are not by any means the only words to use in our Salat. We can say these words and also add to them if we wish other words from the Quran which glorify God.

Reciting the items below during Salat fulfils a number of objectives. Item 1 (the Fatihah) is the only sura in the Quran which comprises a prayer solely addressed to God. Items 3 and 4 are words which glorify God and which we are commanded by God to recite, so including them in the Salat or outside Salat is advisable, while as item 5 comprises the essence of monotheism so should be a declaration to utter at all times, so where better than during our Salat?

Before we commence the Salat we must seek refuge in God from the devil, the Arabic words are "A'uzu b"Allah min Al-Shaytan Al-Rajeem", and in English we should say I seek refuge in God from the rejected devil.
This is because during the Salat we would be reading Quranic words and we are told to seek refuge in God every time we read the Quran

"When you read the Quran, you shall seek refuge in God from the rejected devil" 1698

We are commanded in 6162 to devote every word in our Salat to the name of God alone, and thus these words must be said before we start the Salat and not during the Salat.

1- Although there is no specific command to read the Key (Fatihah) in particular in the Salat, yet since it is the opening of the book and it comprises a call to God in all its words, then it is appropriate to read it in the opening of our Salat.

Bearing in mind that God informs us that He does not wish us any hardship in practicing our religion, thus it is sensible to read the relatively longer passages (such as the Key) in the standing position rather than the bowing or prostrating so that the ill and old would not over-burden their frail bodies. Consequently, the recitation of the Key (Al-Fatiha) in the standing position is what all Muslims do.

2- The phrase "Allahu Akbar" is uttered frequently during Salat in compliance with God's command to magnify Him as in 2185 and 17111.

3- "Sobhan Rabi Al-Azeem" (Praise my Lord the Great). This is in compliance with "You shall glorify the name of your Lord, the Great" 5674. These words can be uttered at any time during the Salat, and preferably in all positions.

4- "Sobhan Rabi Al-Aala" (Praise my Lord the Most High). This is in compliance with "Glorify the name of your Lord, the Most High" 871. These words can be uttered at any time during the Salat, and preferably in all positions.

Praising God is encouraged at all times and specifically after prostration

"During the night you shall glorify Him, and after prostrating" 5040

5- The Shahada (Testimony of Faith) is the first pillar of Islam and is a declaration of our monotheistic faith. The Shahada may be uttered at any stage in the Salat and any number of times

The words of the Shahada are Ash"hadu ana la illaha ila Allah" (I bear witness that there is no God other than God).

"God bears witness that there is no god except He, and so do the angels and those who possess knowledge" 318

6- In 17111 we read the following words

"Al-Hamdu l"Allah alazee lam yatakhez waladan, wa lam yakun lahu shareek fee al mulk, wa lam yakun lahu waleyon min al zol"

These words translate to

"Praise be to God who has never begotten a son, nor does He have a partner in His kingship, nor does He need an ally out of weakness" 17111

In 17110 God commands us to use a moderate voice in our Salat, immediately after which God commands us

"and say, "Praise be to God, who has never begotten a son??."

The words "and say" at the beginning of verse 111 indicate that the subject is still the Salat (the subject of 110). This means that we are to utter these specific words during our Salat.

It is interesting to note that these 3 phrases have significant meanings

a- "Praise be to God who has never begotten a son"

These words purify us from the claim of the Christians who gave God a son (6101).

b- "nor does He have a partner in His kingship"

These words purify us from the corrupt Muslims who made Muhammad a partner with God in everything they say or do (12106).

c- "nor does He need an ally out of weakness"

These words purify us from the Jewish scholars who claim that God's hands are tied and thus He is not able to do certain things (564).

In effect, by uttering these words, and constantly being aware of the danger and corruption of these groups, we purify our souls and maintain the purity of our religion. These words must be uttered during our Salat.

To follow these words we should then magnify God frequently (Allah Akbar) ....

7- The "ending" of the Salat

Since the ending of the Salat conducted by almost all Muslims today does not conform to Quranic teachings, thus this issue will be given special analysis here.

The traditional ending spoken by most Muslims today is

"Al-Salamu alaykum wa Rahmat Allah wa Barakatu". (Peace be upon you as well as God"s mercy and His blessings). This phrase is uttered twice at the conclusion of the Salat, once with the head turned to the right and once with the head turned to the left.

However, if we were to pause and consider the validity of saying these words at the end of the salat we would immediately be faced with the following questions

A- Who are we addressing when we utter these words? Surely we cannot be addressing God because we cannot be saying to God, "may God's mercy and blessings be upon you"!

Some will say that these words are addressed to other fellow believers who are praying alongside us. But this excuse is false, simply because these words are spoken by believers even when they are praying all on their own!

Some others will say that these words are addressed to the two angels who are recording all our deeds, one of whom is on our right shoulder and one is on our left.

Here we must inquire why should we address the angels? After all, our Salat is not directed to them! The Quran makes the point very clear that every word in our Salat should be to God and nobody else

"Say, "My Contact Prayers (Salat), my worship practices, my life and my death, are all devoted absolutely to God alone" 6162 (also see 3911 and 2014)

To direct any words in our Salat to any other than God is indeed against the teachings of the Quran and must be totally rejected.

B- If these words are not directed to God and must thus be rejected, then what are the correct words to be uttered to end our Salat? As usual, God has once again shown us that the Quran offers explanations to all things (1689). Indeed, God has given us in the Quran the exact words that should be uttered to end the Salat. These are found in the following verse

"As for those who believe and lead a righteous life, their Lord guides them by virtue of their belief. Rivers will flow beneath them in the garden of bliss. Their prayer therein is, "Be you glorified our God" their greeting therein is, "Peace" and the ending to their prayer is, "Al-Hamdu l"Allah Rab Al-Alameen (Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe)" 109-10

This verse speaks of the model believers who will be rewarded in the gardens of heaven. We are told about the last words in their prayers "Al-Hamdu l"Allah Rab Al-Alameen" (Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe). It makes perfect sense that we should follow their example (if we would like to end up in heaven too) and end our prayers in praise of Almighty God rather than bid farewell to the angels!

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Summary of the Quranic words for Salat

Before we start the salat we should say
"A"uzu b"Allah min Al-Shaytan Al-Rajeem" (I seek refuge in God from the rejected devil" 1698.

During our Salat we say the words below plus any other words we may choose from the Quran. We can repeat any of these words any number of times and we can say any of them during any of the three positions. The idea is to be spiritually free while we worship God.

1- Al-Fatiha (The Key)

2- "Allahu Akbar" (God is Greatest) to be spoken frequently, 2185 and 17111.

3- "Sobhan Rabi Al-Azeem" (Praise my Lord the Great). 5674

4- "Sobhan Rabi Al-Aala" (Praise my Lord the Most High). 871

5- The Shahada (Testimony) "Ash"hadu ana la illaha ila Allah" (I bear witness that there is no God other than God). 318

6- "Al-Hamdu l"Allah alazee lam yatakhez waladan, wa lam yakun lahu shareek fee al mulk, wa lam yakun lahu waleyon min al zol". (Praise be to God who has never begotten a son, nor does He have a partner in His kingship, nor does He need an ally out of weakness). 17111

7- The Salat ends with the words

"Al-Hamdu l"Allah Rab Al-Alameen (Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe)" 1010

As mentioned, the above words can be spoken in any of the three positions (standing, bowing and prostrating), and also repeated once or as many times as we wish.

It must also be made clear that apart from items 2 and 6 above, which we must utter in our Salat (17111), all the others words are up to us to utter or to mix with other Quranic words which glorify God alone. Hence, there can be other equally correct words for Salat.
Different believers will have different Quranic words which they favour and which they will utter during their Salat and that is perfectly alright.

This issue is different during congregational prayer where the group of believers will follow the words spoken by the Imam who leads the prayer.

How many raka?

Traditional Muslims conduct their Salat in units which they call ?raka?. One raka is a cycle of standing, bowing and prostrating. They also follow a strict format for the Salat which is 24434. This means that the first of their Salat (Fajr) has 2 raka, the second of their Salat (Zhohr) has 4 raka and so on. We don?t find this format, nor any other format, in the Quran. In addition, the word raka itself is not found in the Quran.

The Quran gives us the following assurances

"Should I seek other than God as a source of law when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6114

" .... nothing has been left out of the book" 638
Many who doubt God?s assurance that the Quran has all the details (6114) and that nothing has been left out of the book (63 always pose the following question

?If the Quran has all the details as you claim, then can you show me where do we find the number of raka in the Quran??

To start, the fact that the Quran has all the details is not a claim which we make, but an assurance given by God in the Quran. What they do not realise is that their question (above) endorses a clear admission that they do not believe 6114 and 638!
Indeed the Quran does not have any number of raka, but it is not because the Quran does not have all the details, but because the concept of raka itself is not authorised by God.
The Quranic Salat is simply made up of standing, bowing then prostrating in that order. This means that as soon as prostration is made, the Salat is complete.
To observe one sequence of standing, bowing and prostrating does not mean that the Salat will be reduced to a very short time either! Not at all, those who observe Salat are free to spend as much or as little time in each of the three positions. One can stand in prayer for two minutes, twenty minutes or for any duration of time. The same can be said of bowing and prostrating.

Some have also suggested that in 4101 God gives us the concession to shorten our Salat at times of war or danger, as a result they claim that the Salat must be made up of at least 2 raka since it is not possible to shorten one raka!
Once again, the error in their interpretation is because they chose a starting point (number of raka) which is not a Quranic concept, thus their result is also un-Quranic.
Shortening the Salat is related to the overall time that is given to the Salat and not to the number of units (raka) observed. How can it be related to the number of units (raka) when the whole concept of raka is not Quranic?
What this means is that if we normally spend 10 or 15 minutes in our Salat, at times of war this can be shortened to only a few minutes. In all cases, the Salat would still be comprised of standing, bowing then prostrating.

In addition, we are given Quranic evidence in 4102 that prostration marks the end of the Salat. The words in 4102 which speak to the prophet (or to any leader of the Salat at times of war) say

?And if you are among them and lead the Salat for them, let a group of them stand with you and have their arms with them. Then once they have prostrated let them fall to the rear and let another group who have not prayed yet come to pray with you and they should take their precaution and their arms.? 4102

The words ?once they have prostrated? are very clear and they indicate that as soon as any group has prostrated, this would mark the end of their Salat. Note that God never said that they should prostrate a number of times, nor did God say that they should stand and repeat the cycle. A clear Quranic proof that the Salat is complete after the first prostration.

Salat Positions

The Quran gives us the three positions to be observed during the Salat. These are Standing, Bowing and Prostrating. The Salat starts in the standing position

"You shall consistently observe the Salat (Contact Prayers), especially the middle prayer, and stand before God in submission" 2238

"The angels called to him as he was standing praying in the sanctuary "God gives you good news of John; a believer in the word of God, honorable, moral, and a righteous prophet" 339

"When you are with them, and lead the Salat (Contact Prayer) for them, let a group of them stand with you and let them hold their weapons, and let them stand behind you as you prostrate. Then, let the other group that has not prayed take their turn praying with you, while the others stand guard and hold their weapons" 4102

All the above three verses indicate the standing position. Verse 4102 in particular indicates that the Salat starts in the standing position.

The words "when you are with them, and lead the Salat for them, let a group of them stand with you and let them hold their weapons" indicate the beginning of the salat, that is because it is not feasible to say that the group of believers would join the salat in its middle or near its end! Consequently the words "let a group of them stand with you" indicate that the salat starts in the standing position.

Submission to God should be declared physically and symbolically by first bowing down and prostrating

"We appointed Abraham to establish the Shrine "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My shrine for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate" 2226

"Muhammad-the messenger of God, and those with him are harsh and stern against the disbelievers, but kind and compassionate amongst themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating, as they seek God's blessings and approval" 4829

The greater majority of Quranic verses speak of bowing and prostrating in that order. This seems the logical progression from the standing position, i.e. standing then bowing then prostrating.

The Salat ends with prostration

" ...... then when they have performed their prostration (fa iza sajadu) let them fall to the rear and let another group come that has not worshipped yet and let them worship with you ......" 4102

These three Quranic physical movements (standing, bowing and prostrating) are not required at the times of emergencies, fear, and unusual circumstances (2239).

"Under unusual circumstances, you may pray while walking or riding. Once you are safe, you shall commemorate God as He taught you what you never knew" 2239

Dear NOMAD, I appreciate your reply and your opinion but I do not find you are not answering my question

The Friday prayer

Which prayer is the subject of 629

The prayer spoken of in 629-10 is given special importance as it is a collective prayer, and an analysis of the content of these verses confirms that it is not an additional prayer, but the Middle (wusta) prayer on Friday. If it were an additional salat, apart from the three Salat authorised in the Quran (Fajr-Wusta-Isha), God would have given it a name just like God gave names for all the authorised salat. Here we must remember God?s confirmation that the Quran has all the details (6114) and that nothing has been left out of the book (63.
To analyse this matter we look at the words in 629

?O you who believe, when the call for prayer is sounded on Friday, you shall hasten to commemorate God?

A key observation in the above words is that God did not say when the call is announced for the ?Friday prayer?. God only said the ?call for prayer? on Friday, this is a deliberate choice of words which tells us that it is not an additional salat to the other three, but one of those three. If God had said ?the Friday prayer? then this would mean there is an additional salat called the ?Friday prayer? (additional to the other 3 salat).
So which of the three salat is the subject of 629?
The words in 629 and 6210 confirm that the salat spoken of is the the Wusta salat (on Friday) and not the other two (Fajr or Isha). The full words in these 2 verses say

629 O you who believe, when the call to prayer is sounded on the day of ?jummah? (Friday), you shall hasten to the commemoration of God, and drop all business this is for your own good, if you only knew.

6210 And when the prayer is ended, you shall spread out throughout the land to seek God?s bounties; and remember God frequently so you may succeed.

The words 'drop all business' and also the words 'when the prayer is ended, you shall spread out through the land to seek God's bounties' indicate that this prayer is in the day hours. The reasoning is as follows

• Since no one is likely to be engaged in their business to have to drop it in the early hours before sunrise, this indicates that this prayer is not the Fajr prayer.

• Similarly it cannot be the Isha (Night) prayer since God says that after the prayer the believers may continue with their business. The Isha prayer ends when all light has disappeared from the sky. This is normally the time when people have ended their daily work and are ending their day at home, so this would not be a time when people would be resuming work.
  It follows that if this Salat is not the Fajr prayer nor the Esha prayer, it can only be the Salat Al-Wusta.

Does the Quran state that it is a collective prayer?

It has also been inquired if this prayer should be observed collectively? Some have rightly indicated that the word ?collectively? is not found in these verses. This may be true, however we have three indications in 629 which all confirm that the salat spoken of must be observed collectively.
Before we look at these, let us fist read 629
.
"O you who believe, when the call for prayer is announced on the day of Jummah (friday), you shall hasten to the commemoration of God, and drop all business. This is better for you, if you only knew."629
.
1- The Arabic word ?Jummaah? literally means congregation. The day of Friday, which was given this name, means the day of congregation..

2- We also read in this verse about a call for the prayer on that day. A public call is naturally addressed to all people. This, together with the first three words in the verse which address "all who believe", also confirm that the call is for a collective prayer..

3- We also read in 6210 the following words

"Once the prayer is completed, you shall "intashiru" (spread out) through the land to seek God's bounties, and continue to remember God frequently, that you may succeed."6210
.
The key word here is "intashiru" which means spread out or disperse.
It is not possible to spread out if the starting point is each person on his/her own. The concept of spreading out can only make sense if the starting point is a group. This again confirms that the salat must be observed collectively.

Peace Mikhail Martin.

There nothing to discuss, Quote from the site

"It would also be kufr to claim that the Prophets teachings come under the heading of "baseless hadith". Religious common sense should be enough to see that something the Prophet says cannot be baseless hadith. Is the status of the Prophet really so low in the eyes of people that we consider him and what he says to be just like the disbelievers of Arabia? Allah tasked the Prophet with "explaining" the Quran, so is that explanation just "baseless hadith"? Unless we believe this to be true, we cannot accept the Quran Only viewpoint for Islam. "
Allah did no such a thing Quote from Qoran

Do not move your tongue to hasten it.

It is we who will collect it into Quran.

Once we recite it, you shall follow such a Quran.

Then it is we who will explain it.

Then GOD asks us to follow only one source The Qoran

Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "God's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods*( other sources) beside God." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god( and one source Qoran), and I disown your idolatry.( Following other sources)"

*619 This verse proclaims the Quran as the only source of religious guidance. Those who uphold additional sources, such as Hadith & Sunna (lies attributed to the Prophet), are defined as idolaters.

Peace.

Thank you sir. Very nice )

Peace.

And this article is interesting too;

http//www.quran-only.com/The-Mushaf-Argument.php

Peace.

Looks like theres no takers. How bout we discuss into this article then

http//www.quran-only.com/The-Word-Hadith-In-the-Quran.php

Peace.

Peace Mikhail Matin.

GOD does not need our Service/ worship ... We do that for our benefit, if we choose to.

I got the purpose of our life from Koran.

7172 Recall ( There is a barrier between this life and ?other life? hence the reminder!) that your Lord summoned all the descendants of Adam ( Humans, prior to this life and creation of this universe) and had them bear witness for themselves ( Yes each and every individual!)? am I not your Lord?? ( One ruler, One authority, One system so that we do not divide ourselves into factions/tribes?) They all said? Yes we bear witness? ( You will remember this covenant on the day of judgement?) thus you cannot say on the day of Resurrection? We were not aware of this.?

( You are responsible and accountable! this life is A test of loyalty to GOD your creator? The choice is Loyal to GOD or Loyal to "Other than GOD".)

7174 We thus explain the revelations ( To remind the humans!) to enable the people to redeem themselves.?

Peace.

I shall leave this thread because this is not going anywhere. Peace to all. Love you guys

Peace Mikhail Matin.

I believe the purpose of this life is to redeem ourselves back to the creator. Hence the service/ following the law or what you called "Worship"is for our benefit.

The choice is" GOD"= Heaven or " Not GOD"= Hell ?

That is my understanding.
Peace.

And where do you derive this understanding from?

From good logic or the Quran?

So you are saying First God do not want us to do anything. Second Our purpose is to redeem ourselves by following the laws that God made. Who sets those purpose? You or God?

Peace .
Let me put it another way.

GOD does not want us to worship HIM. HE does not want us to do anything for HIM.

Peace.

Hi good logic. Peace to you and all.

If God " does not want us to do anything for HIM", then what is the purpose of our creation and existence? If he made us to be just part of a bigger picture why are there laws to follow with the promise of Heaven and Hell?

And to all who posted. Thank you for the replies. Very exciting and interesting to read all of them

Hmmmmm.. So far I think only Recluse and Student of Allah is at least trying to answer the question

Imagine this God made us. He gave us free will and a mind to think. God then presents himself beyond our senses and comprehension. He then tells us to worship him where in fact he is not in need of any worship. For those who dont, Hell. For those who does, Heaven.

Student of Allah The question you posed is indeed interesting but lets just stick to my question first

Peace to you too good logic

Ok let me ask the question again.

If God is free from all needs, then why did he create us to worship him?

Thank you. Ignore the subject title.

Wow. Lots of opinions Just like the scholars of hadiths

Ok just need to clarify further. In the context of the Quran (please dont quote other scriptures), is Gods prohibitions supposed to be very clear? If we are not allowed to get tattoos, shouldnt there be a verse which goes something like this. "Thou shall not get tattoos or ink your body".

Nice. Appreciate your reply.

One question. Is there any arabic word for tattoo? If there is or are, does the word exist in the time of the prophets or is the word tattoo in arabic a modern arabic word?

How can I perform the Jumma prayer if the person leading the prayer and everybody else prays differently from me?

I chanced upon this website and I find the arguements interesting. Any comments on any of them?

http//www.quran-only.com/

Its a site dedicated against the Quran only believers.

If God is free from all needs, then why did he create us to worship him?

Tattoos. Anything from the Quran regarding this?