I have a question for the advocators of "sex is only legal in wedlock". Would you find it right for a couple to have sex if they are arguing with one another constantly, the man hits the wife and shouts at her, does not care for her, etc. to have sex, or a couple in a relationship that is fully in love and cares for one another?

Just from an instinctive point of view, which would be correct?

If a man hits his wife, or they argue constantly or whatever else you put down, then they should get a divorce. Then they will stop having sex. If a marriage is not working then that's what you do. That's what the Quran tells you to do.

A couple that is fully in love and cares for one another and what to go to the 'next level' can get married. If they love each other so much what is the issue? They both want to be together obviously so marriage would cement this and then they can fully experience each other.

I thought faith was defined as belief without any evidence (or not much), otherwise if you have evidence then it's just simply belief. Hence why atheist hate being called having a 'faith' because they see their way of thinking as logic.

This is the one I found ala google

1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence

But that's semantics anyway, to answer your question. My faith has always come from the Quran itself. I just can't see such a beautiful piece of art, poetry and song all in one book that is so consistent and never contradicts itself. And the great thing is, if you pick up any Quran anywhere and compare it to another, the arabic is always exactly the same (give or take a few pronunciation things) proving Allah's vow to protect it.

A good parallel would be that if one possesses a bow, one can either use it for pleasure and amusement, hunt or harm. Therefore, one can have fun with the bow, without systematically hurting or hunting anyone or anything. Similarly, one can hunt without having fun with the bow.

What is defended here is the use of the bow exclusively for pleasure. You are arguing against having sex and making children before marriage, and not against having sex before marriage for pleasure only.

Salaam to you and welcome to the forum!

Thanks for the welcome brother,

You're not quite getting my point. My point is, using your example, if the bow can be used for pleasure and amusement and you're allowed to the possess the bow at all, then one can conclude that people will use it for amusement as well as pleasure. Because you are arguing the Quran allows the use of the 'bow' for pleasure, to hunt, you then have to accept it says nothing about using it to amuse or hurt. This is because it simply bans the use of the bow at all, meaning it doesn't have to go into banning it for pleasure or amusement.

There is nothing in the Quran about children outside of marriage. Only sex outside of marriage. This is because if one cannot have sex outside of marriage, one can obviously not have children (unless they adopt). However if one follow's your thought process then someone can have children after marriage. Obviously nothing can stop the production of children 100% so inevitably you'll have children born out of wedlock.

Thus inevitably you'll undermine marriage. As per my point before.

And don't bring talk about abortion and such. Firstly because a lot of people dislike abortion and will refuse to take it (surprising even a lot of westerners hate abortion) and secondly because one can argue it is murder, which is strictly forbidden in Islam.

I never said it was. To say 'philosophy is not universal' makes absolutely no sense, it is like saying 'science is not universal', 'theology is not universal' or 'coca cola is not a computer' there's absolutely no relation between the two.

Philosophy isn't universal. Everyone has their own form of their personal philosophy, same with theology and coca cola is not a computer (unless you named your computer coca cola). Science IS universal as it follows logic and while scientific theories might be different in places, scientific fact is not. You asked for a philosophical argument and Q replied that philosophy isn't universal so no one will give you an argument that will change your own philosophy.

Not only that people here probably like to think they follow the Quran as their own 'Philosophy' and don't see it as a philosophy (neither do I) which could also be Q's point.

Ultimately I agree with everyone here, the Quran outright says no sex before marriage. I'm just trying to humour you with non-quranic arguments. But for me the fact Quran says not to do it is more then enough and I'll never hope to understand Allah (Swt)'s full reasons behind it and neither will you. But that is faith.

I'm sorry Brother, mid-way during our discussion I added details like gender to my forum profile so it's probably why you missed it. &

Anyway, this is true. The next step though will be explaining to my parents why I'm doing 3 salats instead of 5, speaking english and doing various positions at random times. But Allah will hopefully guide me and I'll be okay, thankful my parents are understanding and liberal, allowing me to find my own path even if they disagree with it. peace

Anyone elses opinions on this topic are welcome! ;D

Salam all,

Just to give the really cheesy answer. All the verses in the Quran are my favourite. I find each on as great as the last. So when it comes to this, I simply go to a random page and pick one out. This is the one I got

Their call therein will be, "Exalted are You, O Allah ," and their greeting therein will be, "Peace." And the last of their call will be, "Praise to Allah , Lord of the worlds!"

Love how the response is "Peace". Islam has so much peace in it, it is said to see those Sunni, Shia, Wahabi and Westerns try to paint it as a religion of aggression.

Let me ask you this, what purpose would it serve to say it in Arabic?

This is something that has gone in my mind alot. I use to ask this to my mother when I was younger and got a stern "because you must! it is the language Muhammed spoke (pbuh)" and I was like say what? Isa didn't speak arabic, Moses didn't speak arabic, Abraham didn't speak arabic, so why does it matter that Muhammed spoke arabic? (peace be upon them all). She never really answered that one. hmm

But I guess you're right brother, soon I will be taking on these 3 times a day Salats. I have to admit at the moment I feel a bit lost in it all. It's like having a cage unlocked for the first time in your living memory and been told to sit however you like after sitting a certain way the whole time in the cage. It's hard to comprehend the different ways you can sit. Same with Salat, now I'm free from the shackles of the Hadiths, there is so much freedom, I sometimes marvel at the freedom allowed in Salats.

Thank you very much. group

Peace, everyone.
I'm new to the forum but if I may, I would like to give my philosophical (if you can call it that) view on this. !

As I see it, sex before marriage is philosophically an issue due to the precedent it sets. Assuming that sex before marriage is okay, and then it is okay to theoretically have sex with anyone. The issue is then a large incentive of marriage is gone. Now I'm not saying that marriage is all about sex, but as muslim, we do find that a large component of it is. We want to meet the right person, to share something intimate (sex) to eventually have children and share our lives with them correct?

So if we can have sex outside of marriage, then we can also have children outside of marriage and then you reach the point of, "well what's the point of marriage?".

This is dangerous territory, because marriage is not just simply saying "I agree to have sex with you and only you and one day raise a family", marriage is a bond, agreement and vow to care and protect each other, help each other and respect each other. Marriage is there for a purpose, it creates a binding agreement of people that should not be broken unless it must. That is why Allah (swt) dislikes divorce so much, because it undermines the idea of marriage (a vow, oath), however as he is all forgiving, all merciful he understands that we do not always pick the right person for this bond and make mistakes.

Think of it like this, if sex before marriage is okay, then what's the point of marriage at all? Surely we can then just decide between ourselves that "yeah, I want children with you". I mean you've probably had sex with people before that point and she/he has so they can't complain if after children you decide to have sex with other people too.

All of this eventually develops into the mind-set a lot of western people have today, which is "oh what's the point of marriage; it's just a stupid ceremony". And they're right, if you can do everything outside of marriage as what you can do within, then marriage does become pointless.

This is my mind is why sex before marriage cannot be allowed. As it eventually undermines the idea of marriage. And Allah (swt) created marriage for a reason.

Peace,

But then isn't the issue translation? Which ones do I use? Does it matter as long as the meaning is the same? For instance take this line

"Al-Hamdu l"Allah alazee lam yatakhez waladan, wa lam yakun lahu shareek fee al mulk, wa lam yakun lahu waleyon min al zol"

Could be translated as Praise be to God who has never begotten a son, nor does He have a partner in His kingship, nor does He need an ally out of weakness

But then I look at another site and I get Praise to Allah , who has not taken a son and has had no partner in dominion and has no protector out of weakness

Now, obviously the general meaning is the same but the wording is very different. But does this not matter? Is it simply semantics?

When I speak in arabic, like you said I am translating what I'm say so in that sense I do understand what I'm saying, so would it be better to say the arabic as that is exactly what Allah wanted to say?

Thank you for your answer as well.

Peace brothers and sisters,

First I must add that this is my first post, but I'm not new to this site, I've been looking around for a while before I decided to make my first post.
Anyway, I've been a Sunni muslim (mostly out of family tradition) for most of my life, though I've always felt it was a bit off, I guess. It was a while before I realize it was the Hadith that got on my nerves and the idea that I should treat every Scholar and Iman's words as infallible and equal to Allah (swt).
So I've slowly started making steps towards following the Quran only though there is still many questions I have about it, the main one being Salat.

Now as I understand the general consensus is that only 3 prayers be required (or 2 if you don't believe in the middle one, though I do) and that during these you must hold 3 position (standing, bowing, prostrating) and say certain lines from the Quran.

Obviously as a Sunni muslim, I was made to memorize verses in the Quran to say during Salat, however after reading this link, I discovered that the these are not all the correct words and there are many different phrases I should say including adding in any Quranic verses I feel relevant for the time (unless they mention any other then Allah of course).

Now I have to be truthful, I mainly speech english and moroccan arabic dialet, so my traditional arabic is not really there. I of course memorized the lines for my previous Salat but I've been wondering if for the Quran-Only Salat (if you will) it is nessary to recite in arabic? If not, does that mean I can recite in english or any language I choose? As long as the translation is close and true to the meaning of course.

Look forward to your thoughts on this.