Peace idolfree,

I agree. Yet in this particular debate I see no end. It is obvious that you and brother Edip do not agree, yet neither seems to want to leave it alone, so time is spent on a debate that has no resolution, which makes it more of an intellectual distraction than a discussion leading towards truth.
In the first ayat you posted the debate is to demonstrate truth. I cannot agree with your use of the word debate in 2197 because I do not see the use of it in the context of the subject of the verse . I have followed the discussion between yourself and Edip, and it seems obvious to me that the two of you will not agree on this particular point , so my question is... Why continue to argue the point? You both have demonstrated your points very well, but you do not agree that what the other presents is truth.
Both of you have provided what you deem to be proofs, but you do not agree with each others proofs, so the discussion falls under the discription of baseless. Why? because by rejecting each others truth, you have rejected the base of each others points.
I have observed many of the discussions within this forum and many fall into this category, because if we do not accept the interpretations or proofs that someone offers and they do not accept ours then continuing to discuss the subject will only lead to further disagreement which, in my humble opinion, is not the goal of debate or discussion.
Many of us have become just as bad as the "traditionalists/ritualists"... meaning... we are refusing to allow individuals to reach their own understanding of Islam, considering them wrong if it is not in agreement with our way of thinking or practice. Allah is the Guide, and Hu guides each of us according to our individual constitutions, levels of understanding, determination in study, etc. As bothers and sisters who practice Islam we must allow each other to come into our own understandings, in our own time. Otherwise we are just imitators.

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya

P.S. I think your interpretation of the symbolism in the Matrix series is profound! I saw the movies as a journey in the realization of our essential being but you took it to a whole new level. Thanks!

As'Salaam Alaikum,

Without going into too much detail, I agree with Idolfree that the "between" times are best for establishing salat . I do not have a set method, instead I respond spontaneously to the energies around me. Sometimes it is easier for me to establish the link simply by meditating on the Qur'an, sometimes I use the mind/body union that comes through what some may call "ritual" salat. I will also pay close attention to the awareness of the point between my breath when I am reciting ayats, because this point "between" is also important.
As it has been pointed out... we must "establish" salat, this is different for different people. Some may be able to establish salat simply by reading, some may need to align their physical and mental being, some may achieve this just by slowing their breath down along with their mental activities. I do not think there are hard and fast rules, I think each individual should find what works best for them and then be consistent with it as much as it is possible.
Dawn and Dusk, mindfulness of breath, and reciting the Qur'an work best for me, and sometimes when I feel it is necessary I throw in some moving meditation.

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya

Salaam All,

One of the dangers with debate is that it often is accompanied by an air of competition, wherein we begin to take sides as we can see in this thread. If indeed Islam is the way chosen for us by Allah, does it not stand on its own merit? Does Allah... or Hu's deen need champions for its cause? When we take sides in intellectual gymnastics, is that not fitna?

The structure of the Qur'an demonstrates many mathematical correspondences, the occurences of 19 being just one. Recognizing this does not make one an idolater, anymore than one who recognizes the metaphorical similarities between the Qur'an and the Matrix, both being examples of ijtahid .

Can we all not take our intellects/interpretations so seriously that it keeps us from being able to share each others understanding and experience?

Practice... makes perfect! The practice of Islam leads to Oneness and Unity, if our words and actions do not promote/lead to this result, we cannot claim to practice Islam, no matter how intellectually stunning or clever our debates/arguments/discussions may be.

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya

Peace Tony,

Many animals did die, but they were domesticated animals that either could not break away, or had lost their innate instincts due to their domestication.
I think that what is most important in this view is that the turbulence of our "collective consciousness" may be a source of the turbulence within nature.
Many want to see this tsunami as some sort of punishment or wrath of Allah, instead of natural laws, which are effected by our consciousness and behavior, in operation.
Also, as pointed out in the article, thousands are dying everyday due to man's inhumanity to man through many ways , how come this is not being discussed? When the cause is obviously mankind the death and destruction gets little or no notice, yet when nature opersates according to it's laws all of a sudden people want to talk about Allah. Why is that?

Peace and Love,
Olu'sanya

Aother point of view

Deepak Chopra interview on Larry King Live regarding God and the Tsunami
1/7/05

KING Deepak Chopra, how can you have faith when you see something like this?

DEEKAPK CHOPRA, AUTHOR Hi, Larry. In fact, your faith increases, Larry.
Because faith is trusting that God is all the forces, the forces of creation, the forces of protection and the forces of destruction. This is an opportunity for us to transcend our religious differences, our ethnic boundaries, and create a new humanity which is based on love, sharing, compassion, giving.

And we are seeing that. The militaries of the world are getting together to bring relief. People are losing their differences in Sri Lanka. The Buddhists and the Hindus and the Muslims are getting together. This is our opportunity.

You know in historical traditions, in religious traditions, God rained on the earth for 40 days. And from that came Noah's Ark and the creation of a new humanity. Can we create a new humanity that is not based on militarism ethnocentrism, racism, bigotry, hatred, and prejudice?

KING Deepak, if he loves us why does he bring us such pain that could be prevented?

CHOPRA I think, Larry, one of the problems right now is we keep referring to God as him and his. We have a very sexist, male identity that we've given to God. I agree with Michael Lerner, that our idea of God, our concept of God, our experience of God, changes as we evolve. I think the idea of sin and punishment is very, very primitive. And we have to ask ourselves right now, are we going to choose between sin and compassion? Compassion is the way to go right now.

And you know, there's lots of evidence, even scientific, that the earth is a living organism. The gaia (ph) hypothesis. Is it possible that our consciousness and the turbulence in our consciousness has anything to do with the turbulence in nature? Michael Lerner just referred to that. One of the very interesting things that happened with the tsunami was, no animal died. The elephants. The hares. The rabbits. The birds. They were so tuned in to the forces of nature that they escaped. They ran. Some of the elephants broke their chains and ran to the high level mountainous area where the tidal waves could not reach. We have lost that connection. Is there a way that we can collectively transcend to a level of consciousness where we see that the turbulence in our collective mind, possibly, is inseparable from the turbulence in nature? Because we are part of nature.

KING Is it hard, Deepak Chopra, to stay up? In other words, is it hard to ground that feeling of good will when you see a tragedy like this?

CHOPRA No, it in fact helps you ground that feeling of good will, Larry. You have to remember, as again, Rabbi Lerner said something very profound. The actual figure is 40,000 children are dying every day of preventable causes. 23 million people have died since World War I due to war and related violence. Right now there are 35 wars going on in our world. This is an opportunity for us to say, the cataclysmic events in nature are so big, but the inhumanity of man to man is even bigger. And can we learn from this, that at least there are certain things that we can do to make this a better world? What can we do? This is our opportunity to go beyond our religious differences because of what's happening. It brings out the essential goodness of man.

CALLER The question is, do you have any advice as to the masses, exactly how to keep this a little more balanced?

KING Good question.

CHOPRA It's a very good question. You know, the idea here is that if we quiet the turbulence in our collective mind and heal the rift in our collective soul, could that have an effect on nature's mind, if nature has a mind? The gaia hypothesis says nature does have a mind, that the globe is conscious. So a critical mass of people praying or a critical mass of people collectively engaging in meditation could conceivably, even from modern physics point of view, through non-local interactions, actually simmer down the turbulence in nature. And there are precedents for this in all the religions. That when you pray, that you quieten your mind, that you go into deep silence, you change the way nature behaves. That it's not a cause/effect relationship; it's the inseparability of one consciousness that manifests itself in the diversity of creation.

KING Deepak, do you doubt?

CHOPRA No, Larry, I don't doubt. But I do feel sorry sometimes that we have allowed God to be hijacked by religious dogma. For example, right now on the show there aren't any women. You know, why is that? Every time we do a show on God, religion, it's always us males representing these different traditions. We need to realize that when we share our suffering, out of that comes compassion. And out of compassion comes love and understanding. And from that comes healing. As long as we stick to "my" version of God, we're going to have problems. I say that right on the show.

(As an aside, Chopra's comment about the absence of women led King to ask the other participants whether he was right and if there was a religious show on television the next night, would they expect to see a woman. The responses led King to suggest a program just on that issue.)

Muslim and Islam can mean whatever any of you wants it to mean.
And what constitutes a Muslim can be whatever you want to constitute a Muslim.

If you are talking about how the Koran uses these words that is a different story.

Godbless,
Anwar

Islam,

Al-Qur'an, Al-Baqara 2116

Waqloo itakhaa Allhu waladan subnahu bal lahu m fee a(l)ssamwti wa(a)l-ari kullun lahu qnitoon(a)

They say "Allah hath begotten a son" Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth everything renders worship to Him.

Aal-E-Imran 383

Afaghayra deeni Allhi yabghoona walahu aslama man fee a(l)ssamwti wa(a)l-ari awAAan wakarhan wa-ilayhi yurjaAAoon(a)

Do they seek for other than the Religion of Allah?-while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will (Accepted Islam), and to Him shall they all be brought back.

An-Nahl 1649

Walillhi yasjudu m fee a(l)ssamwti wam fee al-ari min dbbatin wa(a)lmal-ikatu wahum l yastakbiroon(a)

And to Allah doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and on earth, whether moving (living) creatures or the angels for none are arrogant (before their Lord).

Ar-Room 3026

Walahu man fee a(l)ssamwti wa(a)l-ari kullun lahu qnitoon(a)

To Him belongs every being that is in the heavens and on earth all are devoutly obedient to Him.

It is my humble opinion that verything in this universe is muslim/subservient to Allah, as the Qur'an makes this plain, it is only human arrogance that confuses this issue. However, being mu'min takes a conscious effort on one's part, and adherence to the natural laws of Allah as desribed in the Qur'an.

Al-Hujraat 4913-17

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

The desert Arabs say, "We believe." Say, "Ye have no faith; but ye (only)say, 'We have submitted our wills to Allah,' For not yet has Faith entered your hearts. But if ye obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not belittle aught of your deeds for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Only those are Believers who have believed in Allah and His Messenger, and have never since doubted, but have striven with their belongings and their persons in the Cause of Allah Such are the sincere ones.

Say "What! Will ye instruct Allah about your religion? But Allah knows all that is in the heavens and on earth He has full knowledge of all things.

They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere.

Calling yourself muslim, and describing what a muslim is does not necessarily qualify you as mu'min, nor does it negate the fact that Allah has described the universe as muslimah, because all things submits to Hu's will. Also, to correct a statement ade in am earlier post. According to the Qur'an muslims have been here since creation began, submission did not begin with the revelation of the Qur'an, Abraham was muslimah

Peace & Love,
Olu'sanya

Salaamun Ansar,

I have read the autobiography of El Hajj Malik Shabazz. What is your point?

We do not know if El Hajj discovered true Islam because his life was cut short, before he could expound on his transformation after leaving the Nation of Islam.

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya

My point is that you should act like he did. And believe me...he clearly said he was a SUNNI and followed islam like other muslims in the world at that time. The muslims of the east.... I guess you havent read that book at all, otherwise you wouldnt have stated that.

Salaam Ansar,

I told you I read the book, so that is not open for debate. My name is Olu'sanya, therefore I should not "act" like "any" man, other than myself. That is what truth is... El Hajj had his truth, at the time his autobiography was written he had just recently returned from his pilgrimage, his understanding of Islam was changing. He may have said he was Sunni back then, that in no way means he would be today, besides... who said Sunni was true muslim? He was evolving his understanding of Islam, obviously wasn't afraid to change his perspective as his perceptions developed, the same way you should be evolving yours, based on your "own" experience of Islam, instead of talking about what someone else did. All of my actions are based upon my understanding of Islam, my experience of Islam, not conjecture about someone who cannot speak for themselves. I don't live my life based upon what someone said... who heard it upon good authority that someone said... they hear from so and so that... they heard Olu'sanya doesn't "act" like a true "muslim".
You have no idea about how I should act because you don't know me. Any idea you have of me that is not in my writing is pure conjecture. I have the Qur'an as a guide, and my experience is the best teacher, so autobiographies and hadeeth are just the stories of men, that may or may not inspire me in my growth and development, I have Allah as a guide.

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya

As'Salaam,

My introduction to the "tradition" of Islam was a black nationalist group called the Five Percent Nation of Islam (now known as the Nation of Gods and Earths) an offshoot of the Nation of Islam.

You should read the biography of malcolm x http//store.yahoo.com/islamicbookstore-com/b2634.html (nice online bookstore; i've ordered from it)

It shows how he discovered true islam.

Salaamun Ansar,

I have read the autobiography of El Hajj Malik Shabazz. What is your point?

We do not know if El Hajj discovered true Islam because his life was cut short, before he could expound on his transformation after leaving the Nation of Islam.

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya

As'Salaam Alaykum All,

Excellent points Beatnik!

I'm not an expert with lots of suras and verses ready at my disposal, lol, but doesnt 'muslim' mean one who submits to God and His laws? Why would this term only be exclusive to human beings? We always see verses saying how things such as planets and animals 'prostrate' to God, are they not then muslims? They follow a part of Islam, the main part, of submitting to God unquestioningly (the Quran repeatedly alludes to creation as a living thing, such as a mountain crumbling in awe of God, etc), wheras humans have extra rules layed out for them because we accepted free will. We need to know how to come to grips with this decision we made before we were even born, and the Quran is a mercy for us, a guide to deal with responsibility.

The responsibility of being a khalifa... a representative! The one thing that is certain about the tsunami event is that many people died and many are suffering as we speak. Death is the "great equalizer" and the power of life and death belong to Allah alone. Birth and Death belong strictly to Allah, as well as everything that happens in between. Human beings as the Khalifa of Allah have been given the "awareness" of Allah within their "being". The ability to be conscious or aware of the Divine Consciousness/Being" that gave birth to their existence, and the ability to either submit to that "Being" and be rewarded with a straight and harmonious path or... rebel from it and create a crooked path full of suffering, based upon false pride... because you thought that awareness of self gave you a will other than Allah's... a "false sense of pride". The same type of pride Iblis demonstrated when he was asked to bow before Adam. Our submission is neither greater or less than anything else in this creation. We have no "will" per se, that is an illusion created by our ego's .

because I'm promoting free will for human beings, that does not mean I'm taking away anything from God, because as we all know God is omnipotent and all powerful. He can see us outside of time and space, like the way He created the universe, as if opening a scroll. We are in that scroll, our timeline, and our choices, and God can see it all, past, present and future, but just because He knows, it doesnt mean we have no choice. We know where the earth and moon will be in 10 years time, but that doesnt mean we caused that to happen. Understand? I do believe God answers the prayers of good muslims, but its not in a way that most people think, its not black and white, its in some kind of subtle way that works within this sytem of life,

We don't need to know why the tsunami occured, only that it is the will of Allah. However, we know what the Qur'an says about the unity of Allah's creation. We know that as long as human beings are suffering, we are suffering. We know that as long as we claim to be muslim and Mu'min then it is our responsibility to ease suffering, to establish peace, to promote harmony within Islam . We are here to serve this creation, to "serve" as Allah's representative. Our status as muslims or mu'min will be determined by our actions in accrodance to that.

Everything in the universe does what it must, everything submits to God without question, the universe is muslim. Only human beings have choice, and God has been merciful to us in giving us a guide on how to deal with this massive responsibility, and we should be thankful everyday of our lives for that.

Absolutely! Now... do we sit here and make judgements about why the tsunami happened, or do we look to the Qur'an for guidance on how we may ease the pain and suffering caused by the tsunami and how we may restore peace to the areas effected by it. How may we address the "living" according to the guidance of the Qur'an?

That "individualized awareness" we have been given is not a "free will". First... it is not a will, Allah's will is the only reality. Second... that awareness is not "free", it comes with the price of responsibility, the cost of being a representative of the Boss... a khalifa. Our limited intellects could not explain what happened any better than they could have prevented it. We are not the reason for this universe... Allah is. Let us aceept what Hu has caused to be... and act accordingly, using the Qur'an as our guide.

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya

Also, many Spanish restaurants put pork in just about every thing they cook, because they use it as a basic seasoning.

Peace Osunlaya,
Pork is very common here, not exactly to season, but yes, it is added to many dishes. You can imagime what means here to be vegetarian or moving to vegetarianism...

As'Salaam Alaykum Elena,

I can imagine your difficulty!

I have embarrassed friends when we have gone out to eat because they were uncomfortable with my interrogation lol of the waiters and waitresses. As Taj pointed out it is hard to be sure when you eat "out of your home". I put restaurants through the third degree about how they prepare food and what they are using when they cook, but since I'm paying for it I think I have the right to know.

In my experience, if the restaurant is a good one, then once you express to them your dietary requirements they will accomodate you.

What part of Spain are you in?

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya

As'Salaam Elke, All,

To Olusanya Just wanted to tell you I (generally) really like your posts. BTW, what does your name mean ?

Thank you! My mouth usually gets me into trouble because I prefer to speak from the heart first, the intellect second, sometimes they are, actually, in agreement. In this case they agree 100%. lol
Olu'sanya means - God compensates for suffering/God rewards sacrifice.

Finally, he let me go, but kept my children - this was the deal. Now I'm stuck in this country cause I want my kids to grow up with both parents. You see , I could really go nuts about what "I hate about men" aso...but that's just not the point!

This is just my personal opinion, a real man... a good man would never separate children from their mother unless she posed a danger to them. As it has been pointed out by a couple of people in this thread, there are differences in our nature and one of them is the capacity to nourish.
I think you have demonstrated great strength in removing yourself from an unhealthy relationship, and a profound commitment to your children, enabling them to continue to grow with their mother present in their lives. At the same time, you have not allowed this experience to tarnishyour view of men.
I'm a little in awe right now! shock

We completely ignore who we are and we get chaos and destruction. Why? Because we are not at PEACE with ourselves, we fail to UNDERSTAND ourselves.

I often tell friends, "If you are not comfortable being alone, then you will not be comfortable in a relationship. You have not found the balance within yourself that brings the internal peace that we shold be extending to each other in our external relationships.

To Esimsek

I'm glad your humor extends both ways. I was being a little sarcastic because I recognized that in some of your comments you seemed to be trying to push the sister's buttons.
Keep in mind though... the whole alpha male analogy is a control issue. The reason may be survival, but the issue remains control.

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya

As'Salaam GreenLeaves,

Sorry to hear about your experience. I learned that you have to be very careful when eating out of your house. Some Chinese people do not even consider pork meat. I ordered Ma Po bean curd once and specifically asked the person taking the order if there was meat in it, she said, "No". When she brought it to me and I saw the pork in it I said, "I thought you said this had no meat in it", and she looked at me and said, "that's not meat, that's pork". lol Also, many Spanish restaurants put pork in just about every thing they cook, because they use it as a basic seasoning.

I make it a practice to basically eat meatless dishes if I am eating outside of my house. It may be a bit paranoid, but I feel safer that way.

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya

Salaam GreenLeaves,

We were posting at the same time. Well Said!

Peace,
Olu'sanya

Salaam All,

I agree! idolfree1 and esimsek are not saying the same thing.
idolfree is speaking about the natural interaction of the two creative energies .
esimsek it seems is trying to come to terms with control issues and disappointing relationships, meanwhile he keeps equating human beings to animals.
Male/Female relationships are not simply about "sex" and "survival of the fittest". What happened to the spiritual aspects? Where is the "Divine Union"?

If I may add a little to idolfree1's discussion lol We have Ausar and Auset... the Divine Man and Divine Woman. The heiroglyphs for these two are very revealing in terms of their natural roles. The pictograph for Ausar is a man holding the crook and flail, while Auset is a throne/seat. A western mind may jump to the conclusion that because Ausar sits on the throne that gives him a superior position, however they would be wrong. Auset as the throne is the seat of power, the "true" force and power of any kingdom, she allows the king to use her power, she supports the king with her power. The king is, in fact, a servant to the power of the Queen. That is why the man is physically stronger, so that he may defend the power of the queen.

Still... why does Ausar hold the crook and flail? because man is fiery in nature tends to be more dynamic and external with the use of his energy , the crook and flail are symbols of a good kings ability to subdue his passions , so that he could be a good shepherd of his people .

Let us examine another aspect. In many of the ancient cultures the seers/oracles were women. Why is this? As idolfree1 and savage carrot have pointed out... a mind of peace/stillness is essential for inspiration/revelation. A woman's energy according to the concept of yin and yang is more passive/watery, whereas man is dynamic/fiery. Which is more easily brought to a level of stllness? Which is mre conducive for the stillness to receive inspiration/revelation. Please do not point out that all the stories of the prophets are about men because until the lion learns to write all the stories favor the hunter. Hmmmm.

These are just some points to think about in this discussion.

Also... Sister Nadia... you have examples of Ahmes Nefertari, and Hatshepsut in the Kamitic culture. Ahmes Nefertari was a Queen/Mother who actually led the Kamitic armies with her brother to regain the Kamitic throne from foreign invaders . Hatshepsut actually was a Pharoah, but her name was stricken from most of the history books because the patriarchy that Kemet became couldn't handle the fact that one of their most powerful and influential Pharoahs was a woman. The name Candace is actually a derivative of Kentake, which was the title given to Queens in Ghana, Nzinga who was another well known warrior-Queen was the most famous . There are many more instances throughout the history of humanity.

Patriarchy has not always been the case, and one could make a good argument that civilizations under patriarchy have been much less stable then those that were matriarchal.

Anyway... you all can think about these points, and at the same time remember... if we don't come to terms with our natural dependence upon each other and stop this silly battle of the sexes... there will be no... "making love". lol

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya

P.S. idolfree1... how far is where you live in PA from Stroudsburg?

As'Salaam Alaykum All,

They say that in the Ennuit language there are over one hundred words for snow, now whether you use one of these one hundred words or just... snow, none of them are what you are describing. A word, in ANY language is simply that a word; a sound or combination of sounds, or it's representation in writing or printing that symbolizes and communicates a meaning.

Example RAIN... RAIN... RAIN... does everybody know what I mean by rain? Now... did anybody get wet? Of course not... because the word rain is not the "reality" of rain, and if you and I are standing in a rain shower it it won't matter if you call it "rain" and I call it "ojo'gbu", we will both get wet. Now if we stand in a shower in our house we will also get wet, but... will we call it rain. To take the example a little further... If I say it's raining cats and dogs are you going to reinforce your umbrella because cats and dogs are heavier than water? By the way... when I referred to rain as "it" did anyone get lost in the translation from "rain" to "it"? We can Scream... "RAIN!" all day long, and it still won't "BE" rain.

We may call it the Qur'an, the Great Reading, the Message, the Collected Teachings... there will be those who go beyond the words and perceive the meaning and "spirit" of the words, and there are those who will simply see a collection of words made from letters, then they will argue ceaselessly because they are caught up/attached to a form, when what they are describing is formless. Words are empty and meaningless if they fail to convey the spirit of what they represent. The sounds will have no more meaning for them than... "Rain, Rain go away... Olu'sanya wants to play... with words... because they are never what they describe!

So who's right? Everybody! Well then who's wrong? Everybody! Everybody who gets past the word and through to it's "essential meaning" is correct, everybody who doesn't... is incorrect. It doesn't matter how well they phrase their... words. They will be empty... and meaningless, a void of understanding. So we should take care, so that we can avoid getting trapped by the words we use. We must not let our attachment to words "reign" over our reason, and we will end up showering each other with more... and more... meaningless words, and still... without understanding each other.

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya lol

Peace be upon you,

I agree with the basis of this thread so far, but I question

When the companions of the Prophet Muhammed (saws) went out for the offensive jihad against the Egyptians, the Persians and the Romans, we find that the people did not resist against them at all.

What is the offensive Jihad? And why is it being potrayed from the hadiths other than the God's hadith that every other place (Egyptians, persians, and Romans) were misguided? Why does one that is claimed to be from MECCA, have to go all around the world, don't they have thier own messengers who speak thier own language?

salaam my friend ,

Despite of your condemnable questions ,I will answer them to reflect my principles and values.

Those are some verses From My Holy Book Quraan explain the real conditiones of Al Jehad in Islam .

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2190)"

"If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee for I do fear God, the cherisher of the worlds. Noble Quran528

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. (The Noble Quran 2193)"

Thanks to all

As'Salaam Alaykum All,

I think the main source of confusion in this discussion is the inconsistency in terms. It has been correctly stated that "jihad" means to struggle against/to deny... as in the struggle with one's own nafs, but then (as in the verses shown above) it is also being identified as fighting or warfare. The mistake being made is that in these verses we do not see the word jihad, but instead "Qatala", and it's derivatives.

Waqtiloo fee sabeeli Allhi allaeena yuqtiloonakum wal taAAtadoo inna Allha l yuibbu almuAAtadeen(a)
Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

Al-Qur'an, Al-Baqara 2190

Waqtiloohum att l takoona fitnatun wayakoona a(l)ddeenu lillhi fa-ini intahaw fal AAudwna ill AAal a(l){thth}limeen(a)
And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

Al-Baqara 2193

La-in basata ilayya yadaka litaqtulanee m an bibsiin yadiya ilayka li-aqtulaka innee akhfu Allha rabba alAAlameen(a)
"If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds.

Al-Maeda 528

However, if we look at a few of the verses where "jahada" is actually used we will see that it does not, in fact, mean fight/warfare but instead "to struggle/strive/deny".

Inna allaeena manoo wa(a)llaeena hjaroo wajhadoo fee sabeeli Allhi ol-ika yarjoona ramata Allhi wa(A)llhu ghafoorun raeem(un)
Those who believed and those who suffered exile and fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah,- they have the hope of the Mercy of Allah And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Al-Baqara 2218

Am asibtum an tadkhuloo aljannata walamm yaAAlami Allhu allaeena jhadoo minkum wayaAAlama a(l)bireen(a)
Did ye think that ye would enter Heaven without Allah testing those of you who fought hard (In His Cause) and remained steadfast?

Aal-E-Imran 3142

Inna allaeena manoo wahjaroo wajhadoo bi-amwlihim waanfusihim fee sabeeli Allhi wa(a)llaeena waw wanaaroo ol-ika baAAuhum awliyo baAAin wa(a)llaeena manoo walam yuhjiroo m lakum min walyatihim min shay-in att yuhjiroo wa-ini istanarookum fee a(l)ddeeni faAAalaykumu a(l)nnaru ill AAal qawmin baynakum wabaynahum meethqun wa(A)llhu bim taAAmaloona baeer(un)
Those who believed, and adopted exile, and fought for the Faith, with their property and their persons, in the cause of Allah, as well as those who gave (them) asylum and aid,- these are (all) friends and protectors, one of another. As to those who believed but came not into exile, ye owe no duty of protection to them until they come into exile; but if they seek your aid in religion, it is your duty to help them, except against a people with whom ye have a treaty of mutual alliance. And (remember) Allah seeth all that ye do.

Al-Anfal 872

As it has been stated many times in the Qur'an, "it is a book of evidence, made clear!" It is my humble opinion that if we stick to the Qur'an as our source of law, we will be better equipped to adhere to the necessary practices that will enable us to serve the "System" and "Order" of Allah.

Waanzaln ilayka alkitba bi(a)laqqi muaddiqan lim bayna yadayhi mina alkitbi wamuhayminan AAalayhi fa(o)kum baynahum bim anzala Allhu wal tattabiAA ahwahum AAamm jaka mina alaqqi likullin jaAAaln minkum shirAAatan waminhjan walaw sha Allhu lajaAAalakum ommatan widatan walkin liyabluwakum feem tkum fa(i)stabiqoo alkhayrti il Allhi marjiAAukum jameeAAan fayunabbi-okum bim kuntum feehi takhtalifoon(a)
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

Al-Maeda 548

May Allah continue to bless us with guidance.

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya

As'Salaam Alaikum All,

I would like to add a few points if I may.

Al-Qur'an, Al-Ikhlas

Qul huwa Allhu aad(un)

Say He is Allah, the One and Only;

Allah is the only "reality", any concept of a "being" separate or outside the Oneness of Allah is an "illusion"

Allhu a(l)amad(u)

Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

Allah is... as Allah always was... everything in creation exists within Allah, as the Eternal, Absolute... nothing can exist "outside of Allah.

Lam yalid walam yoolad(u)

He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

Allah begets not, creation does not exist separate from Hu, it is manifested existents ("appearances") of Allah, outside of Allah's being they do not exist.

Walam yakun lahu kufuwan aad(un)

And there is none like unto Him.

Our knowledge, wisdom, understanding (whatever you choose to identify it as) is a result of removing the veil(covering) of a separate self and returning to the Oneness of Allah, for there is nothing to worship... there is only Allah. "In Hu we live and have our being". To abandon the world, which is no less an appearance of Allah then we are, is to lose sight of the "reality" of Allah's Oneness. We are here for a purpose... to learn how to transcend our attachments to the many "appearances" or individuated expressions of Allah and return to Hu's Oneness. That is why the Qur'an warns us not to become preoccupied with the things of the world... they are/we are ALL illusions (that includes our intellects). It is our "false sense" of self that must be abandoned.

Al-Qur'an, Adh-Dhariyat 5120,21

Wafee al-ari ytun lilmooqineen(a)

On the earth are signs for those of assured Faith,

Wafee anfusikum afal tubiroon(a)
As also in your own selves Will ye not then see?

This is my humble understanding.

Ma'Salaam,
Olu'sanya

People sometimes say that by looking into details you miss the "big picture". But, in this case, it seems "the big picture" is obscuring understanding the details.

As'Salaam Alaikum,

I'm not sure I get the point of this line of discussion. As I understand, Allah speaks to humanity (because the Qur'an was revealed as a guide for all humans, though some will refuse to follow it's guidance) through Muhammad so that he may serve as a guide to us, or Allah speaks directly to Muhammad, so that he may serve as a better example to us, through his personal practice. It has been clearly pointed out that there are instances of both forms of communication in the Qur'an, times where Allah speaks to Muhammad, as well as times when Allah speaks through Muhammad, and it is my understanding that at all times the message relates to humanity as a whole, because that is who the Qur'an is being revealed for.
The fine details and the big picture... are One and the same. How do we look at one without seeing the other?
Too much attention either way is the problem, not what has been stated. That is why balance is so important and heart perception is so much more reliable than intellect.

Iyyka naAAbudu wa-iyyka nastaAAeen(u)

That's the Thee, You, Hu, He that... we... need to focus our attention on.

Ma'Salaam,
Olusanya

Peace,

If Allah had willed, Hu could have guided you all to the one path leading directly to Hu.

I guess I'm lost for knowing what "Hu" means?

As'Salaamu Alaykum Danish,

Hu is the personal pronoun for Allah used in the Qur'an. It is usually translated as He or Him, However, Allah is above gender, so I choose to use Hu instead of translating it to He or Him.

Ma'Salaam,
Olusanya

As'Salaamu Alaykum

We may utter phrases like... Insha Allah then neglect to act in a manner wherein we take responsibility for our actions in regards to whether something happens or not, why don't we say... "Bismillah", then act accordingly? Does anything happen that is not the will of Allah? If we say "Insha Allah", but do nothing to bring about the circumstances we are seeking to achieve (or hoping might happen) have we used Allah's name in vain?

Al-Qasas 2852-56

Allaeena taynhumu alkitba min qablihi hum bihi yu/minoon(a)

Those to whom We sent the Book before this (Jews and Christians),- they do believe in this (revelation)

Wa-i yutl AAalayhim qloo mann bihi innahu alaqqu min rabbin inn kunn min qablihi muslimeen(a)

And when it is recited to them, they say "We believe therein, for it is the Truth from our Lord indeed we have been Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will) from before this. (Qur'an)

Ol-ika yu/tawna ajrahum marratayni bim abaroo wayadraoona bi(a)lasanati a(l)ssayyi-ata wamimm razaqnhum yunfiqoon(a)

Twice will they be given their reward, for that they have persevered, that they avert Evil with Good, and that they spend out of what We have given them.

Wa-i samiAAoo allaghwa aAAraoo AAanhu waqloo lan aAAmlun walakum aAAmlukum salmun AAalaykum l nabtaghee aljhileen(a)

And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you we seek not the ignorant."
*They do not seek the ignorant, yet they wish peace upon them anyway

Innaka l tahdee man ababta walkinna Allha yahdee man yasho wahuwa aAAlamu bi(a)lmuhtadeen(a)

It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one, whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom Hu will and Hu knows best those who receive guidance.

It is my understanding that there is no compulsion in the deen-i-Islam, that includes convincing each other of our individual understandings of Allah (Who, by the way, our intellects can never truly grasp). Sharing our understanding is a beautiful thing, but we cannot become so attached to our personal understanding that we feel a need to convince others, because as the ayat above states... "Allah guides those whom Hu wills". We need to not put so much trust in our intellects, trust the system and order of Allah as it is revealed in our hearts (a much better organ of perception when it has been kept clear).

Hud 1156

Innee tawakkaltu AAal Allhi rabbee warabbikum m min dbbatin ill huwa khiun biniyatih inna rabbee AAal irin mustaqeem(in)

"I put my trust in Allah, My Lord and your Lord! There is not a moving creature, but Hu hath grasp of its fore-lock. Verily, it is my Lord that is on a straight Path.

Everywhere! I turn I see the face of Allah. This is my understanding of the "reality" of Allah's Oneness, so everyone I greet... I greet with... "As'Salaamu Alaykum", with all due respect to the opinions stated here... Allah will be the judge of whether or not this is right or wrong.

Ma'Salaam,
Olusanya