What if you discovered these "Mathematical Miracles" were false?

My friend, the "what if" can go either way.

I think it has been proven beyond reasonable doubts that the count is true. Here is a long debate. Ultimately the opponent ate humble pie and agreed on the count.

http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/365days.htm

Another way to prove is to do a count yourself.

Whichever way you do, the burden to verify this is on your shoulder.

Lets suppose for the sake of discussion we both have agreed that the count is correct. What would you say? Can a human write such a book 1400 years ago? I am a computer programmer and I think I am good at math (what a show off I am). I certainly dont think a human can do this. Yes my belief is augmented due to the count and it is enough for me. I accept the book as it is. I try to explore Quran more. There are tons of things that I dont understand. There are things that dont make sense to me. I accept Quran even with all this. On the other hand you want to know why God wrote what he wrote before you accept his words. I dont think it could work this way.

The correct sequence is

YOU SEE MIRACLE -> YOU ACCEPT THE BOOK AS IT IS-> YOU STUDY IT TO LEARN -> YOU ACT ON IT

The wrong sequence is

YOU UNDERSTOOD WHY BOOK SAID WHAT IT SAID -> YOU ACCEPT THE BOOK BECAUSE ALL OF IT MADE SENSE TO YOU-> YOU ACT ON IT

In approach 2 we are assuming we can read God's mind.

People who dont use their brains following sequence 3 which is wrong as well

YOU ACCEPT THE BOOK BECAUSE YOUR MOM (PARENTS/CULTURE) SAID SO-> YOU OPTIONALLY STUDY IT TO LEARN -> YOU OPTIONALLY ACT ON IT

NONE whatsoever!

Salams

An honest question to Genteel and CosmicDancer

If you are convinced that Quran is not a word of God then what are you doing on this forum?

There are two kinds of people in this forum

1. those who are convinced that Quran is the word of God and wish to explore Quran.
2. those who want to find out if Quran is the word of God or not.

Those who are convinced that it is not the word of God spend their time elsewhere; unless they know deep down that they are wrong.

Also how would you explain the word count miracle? Is the word count miracle a deception? Or was Mohammad super super smart to hide this mirale himself in Quran?

quick question. by reading your post, i undertand that junuban means resulting in seminal discharge. is this word specific to a man or are women also covered? this is where i am coming at is quran addressing only men or women as well?

Peace

Interesting question!

Few observations

4140 says that revelations can be distorted. "those who distort Our revelations ".

10 versions of Quran exists. That would fall under the category "distortion of revelations".

However 4142 says that falsehood cannot enter a revelation.

That means "entering a falsehood" is not equal to "distortion". This must have some higher meaning. Something above the act of distortion. I dont know. I would like to know.

The act of distorting revelations does not nullify Quran because Quran admits that it is doable 4140.

God knows the best
May God increase my knowledge

Thanks Ahmed, that helped.

Then do you know why there are some cases in Quran where men and women are addressed separately one after the other?

Peace

Peace

God taught Adam names of object; in which language? In all future languages; which objects? existing ones or future objects as well?

... just curious.

Cheers

Peace Tanveer

Yes, I thought about that. There are two verions of string theories out there. One says there are 10 dimensions (6 hidden + 4) and the more popular one says there are 11 dimensions to the universe (7 hidden + 4). The first one seems to fit better with the scenario under discussion.

God knows what the the truth is. However after reading about string theory I am convinced that the comprehensibility of 7 heavens concept will get better with the passage of time. String theory is a very powerful equation resulted from combining the quantum theory and general theory of relativity. All that is remaining to do is somehow prove the deductions of this theory by observations. Europe and USA are building atomic breakers to do that.

Long time back the 7 heavens concept was in my list of "Difficulties in Quran". Now for me it has moved to a list of "Will get clear with time". There is a big part of physics still remaining to be explored.

Peace Nerpi

i like that theory too. 7 parallel universes.
but i still don't know how would the lights/lamps/stars mentioned in 4112 apply here.

Perhaps the lowest heaven is the universe that we can see and experience. Lamps are installed in the lowest heaven.

The remaining parallel universes are in hidden dimensions.

Peace all,

Has any one given thought to string theory?

This is the most important mathametical equation ever derived. This is the equation that explains the universe. Scientists have been working on this since 1970s. Billions have been invested in this area.

According to the string theory there are 11 dimensions (another version of this theory proposes 10 dimensions). 7 of them are hidden. 4 of the remaining ones are x axis, y axis, z axis and the time.

The theory says that there are 7 parallel universes. They are there but we cannot see them. They are in the hidden dimensions.

I read the second most interesting book of my life "The fabric of cosmos" by Briane Green. I found God everywhere.. in Quantum theory, in Relativity theory, in String theory. Science is stranger than a fiction.

Just a thought... The 7 heavens might be referring to the 7 parallel universes.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory

Peace.

p1. believe--> guided
p2. disbelieve--> wrong path--> hell
p3. we have free will choose between p1 and p2.
p4. All will believe if God wants it that way.

Thanks anonymous. I just loved the way you have laid it out! bravo That clarifies my confusion. Some how I was not able to see this connection.

Thanks Arnold, jankren, and jankren.

Arnold, I have read your articles on 19.org. "A Scientific Approach To Afterlife" was the best one. I found it very thought provoking. I will read the article on "Allah's Will" soon, God willing.

Peace all

Peace all,

"as a privilege given only to you and not to the believers"

3350 O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God, and the daughters of your father's brothers, and the daughters of your father's sisters, and the daughters of your mother's brothers, and the daughters of your mother's sisters, of whom they have emigrated with you. Also, the believing woman who had decreed herself to the prophet, the prophet may marry her if he wishes, as a privilege given only to you and not to the believers. We have already decreed their rights in regard to their spouses and those who are still dependant. This is to spare you any hardship. God is Forgiver, Merciful.

Any thoughts? Any one (nabi, wakkas, ahmadbaghat, enquirer... ) ?

Why prophet (peace be upon him) has been given the extra privileges when it comes down to marrying? Leader is an example for others. This is bothering me a bit.

May God give me wisdom to understand this.

Can someone refer me to any other free mind style forums where I should post this? Thanks ...

Peace

Asalamu Alaikum,

Here are some definitions of root words as I found them in the following dictionaries
Please see the dictionaries for a full and complete definition this is just a brief description.

Peace Arnab

Thanks. I will try to study the root words ...

Peace

The Quraan has many examples of God granting or giving what was asked from Him
by prophets and also by ordinary people. As you see some of this requests or invocations are related to this life.

Peace warner,

I understand the God has granted Muhammad his wishes as he had granted wishes of other prophets in the past. That is not the problem.

The problem for me is that
1- the wedding rules should be same for prophet Muhammad as for rest of the muslim men (3350).
2- the wedding rules should be same for prophet's wive as for rest of the muslim women (3353).

Seems like verses 3350 and 3353 have bent the rules in favor of the prophet.

Peace

Excuse me for saying this, but who are we to dictate what should God say in His book and shouldn?t. It is not only a book of wisdom for all eras and for all people
It includes all messages to Muhammad from God be they small or big or personal or public.

Agreed we are nobody to dictate God what to say.

The fact is I believe that Quran is a book of God not because my mom and dad told me so. I just cannot have blind faith on anything. I have found enough proof in Quran that makes me believe it is a book of God. If something questionable comes up then honestly my beliefs get shaken a bit. That is why it is important for me to go in details for such seemingly trivial matters. Sometimes I feel I am very unfortunate in this sense.

To me it is a big thing that prophet is allowed to do something by law which regular muslim men cannot (3350) and prophet's wives are precluded from doing something which regular muslim women can do (3353). I always thought that righteousness is the only criteria for judgement no matter if you are prophet's wife in a Saudi dessert or a farmer's wife working in a remote cuban farm.

peace

Thanks Imran for providing the explanation. Your reply is very appreciated!

Salams Taj

I agree that the adopted kid should be told that he is adopted. But the question is what age? Age 6 is tool early. Kid would not know what an adoption is. He could get the mesage that he is different from other kids. Perhaps at this age this is the only translation of adoption that would come to his mind. Age 20+ is too late. By this age the kid could come to know from some other source and he would be very upset that my parents did not tell me. The question is not "to tell or not to tell". The question is what age is the best for disclosing this.

Can you tell me that which Quranic verse suggests that we should give some "created" or "other" family name to the adopted person if the actual biological origins are not known? Is it 335? If yes then how? Thanks.

If we give a separate created family name to the orphan, then would'nt it make him feel that we don't want to assocaite him with us - that is why we dont want to give our name to him? Would'nt that make him feel unwelcomed/uninvited/unwanted/secondary? (Assuming biological parents are not known).

My name is Hasan Mir. Lets say I adopt a baby girl and name her Fatima. What you are saying is that the her last name should be something different than Mir even if I dont know her biological parents. Lets say I name her Fatima Javed. She will ask me very soon why she is "Javed". I will tell her that you are Javed not Mir because you are an adopted kid and I dont want to give my name to an adopted baby. This way world would know that you are adopted. I think her reply would be

"I know I am adopted. Why it is important for you to tell the whole world that I am adopted by giving me a different name?"

What do you think?

If biological roots are known than the story is different off course.

(5

Salams Taj/Layth

So what you are saying is that the adopted kid must be given some "other family name" even if the biological parents of the kid are unknown.

How did we conclude that from 335 ? or from any other verse?

Isn't 335 saying that if the parents are non known then we can treat the adopted kid as the member of the family?

Thanks

033.005
OdAAoohum li-aba-ihim huwa aqsatu AAinda Allahi fa-in lam taAAlamoo abaahum fa-ikhwanukum fee alddeeni wamawaleekum walaysa AAalaykum junahun feema akhta/tum bihi walakin ma taAAammadat quloobukum wakana Allahu ghafooran raheeman
YUSUFALI Call them by (the names of) their fathers that is juster in the sight of Allah. But if ye know not their father's (names, call them) your Brothers in faith, or your maulas. But there is no blame on you if ye make a mistake therein (what counts is) the intention of your hearts and Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL Proclaim their real parentage. That will be more equitable in the sight of Allah. And if ye know not their fathers, then (they are) your brethren in the faith, and your clients. And there is no sin for you in the mistakes that ye make unintentionally, but what your hearts purpose (that will be a sin for you). Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR Assert their relationship to their fathers; this is more equitable with Allah; but if you do not know their fathers, then they are your brethren in faith and your friends; and there is no blame on you concerning that in which you made a mistake, but (concerning) that which your hearts do purposely (blame may rest on you), and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
KHALIFA You shall give your adopted children names that preserve their relationship to their genetic parents. This is more equitable in the sight of GOD. If you do not know their parents, then, as your brethren in religion, you shall treat them as members of your family. You do not commit a sin if you make a mistake in this respect; you are responsible for your purposeful intentions. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

It is sad to tell that here in Malaysia you can read a lot of news on abandoned babies. Sometimes they (esp. Muslim couples) simply throw the unwanted babies (sometimes with the umbilical cord still attached) into rivers, dumping ground, rubbish bin ,etc. Those who were blessed with some good human instinct, would normally place the babies near to public places such as mosque, house doorsteps, etc.

What an irony! There are people who are dying to have their own babies, and yet there are also those people who are leaving their babies on public places ...

To cut thing short, I have adopted one of the babies, and name him after my name. And he is now 9 yrs old and been treated just like our own blood family. Now, do you think it is wise to think that the child will never feel the need to feel ashamed of her unknown origins if we start explaining his actual origin?

Salams Phil. Good to know that you have adopted a boy. It is a noble act indeed.

I take it from your comments that you are not planning to tell your son that he is adopted. My question is do anyone else know that he is adopted? Isn't there are a chance that someone else would tell him that? Shouldn't that come to him from you rather than someone else. (I may be wrong and jumping to conclusion.)

I am also planning to adopt a baby whose parents are either not present in the world or whose origin is not known. I live in Toronto and know tons of people. I am planning to keep things simple by letting the kid know at right age what his origins are. I am also planning to not hide this fact from people I know.

Since you have already been through this path, perhaps you can advice me on potential bumps on the road and how to deal with them.

Thanks

As of right now, I'm of the opinion that mind=brain, heart=soul. Man has a dual nature, not a triune nature. That being said, the heart is the divine essence - the real "you". The mind is only the processor of information, or the means of experiencing this life.

Peace Tay

If heart=soul then how would you explain the heart transplants. The recipient does not end up having the soul of the donor after the transplant. In USA a pig's heart was successfully implanted to a human.

There was a person in USA who was running on a machine heart for years. Believe it or not, this person used to feel emotions just like us.

Having said that, soul cannot reside in the heart.

Perhaps you mean to say

heart = "source for feeling the soul".

just like

brain = "tool for feeling the mind".

My position is the opposite, that the abstract (metaphysical) faculty of mind creates the "thoughts/images" that RESULT in the flow of current to the brain. The brain is a tool for the mind, not the same thing as the mind.

Interesting way of thinking!
Your arguments sounds plausible.
I like it.
I never approached the subject from this angle before.

Peace be upon you,

My answer is neither. The thought process happens at a level ABOVE the physical level, which is where both brain and heart reside. We call this abstract faculty "mind". But "mind" is neither heart nor brain. The physical is only a vehicle for the metaphysical.

The heart is used as a metaphor which I am not prepared to speak on inteligently at this point.

Salams

Mind is an abstract concept. Brain is a physical concept. Brain consists of millions of neurons. There is always current flowing through the neurons. The flow current of current results in our "thinking".

That is how the abstract concept of mind is borned. Brain creates mind.

A person with healthy number of neurons would have healthy mind. A person with less number of neurons will have undeveloped mind (often seen in kids and old people).

An heart does not contain thinking cells.

One possibility is that * brain (mind) is responsible for thinking. * brain is responsible for releasing emotion hormones in the body * heart makes us feel emotions as a result of those hormones. That is why a person will still feel the same emotions, even after having an heart implant, as he used to feel before. But you implant brain, the person would feel emotions of the donor.

Quran has to be right in saying that we feel emotions in our hearts. I dont know how we would explain the Quran saying "we hide things in our heart/chest".