Peace Assassino.
The verse is talking only about married women. Divorce is between a married couple.
I do not see any issue. Read the verses in context, 651 onwards,- When you divorce women....
You see under age girls and they are not mentioned in any of the verses.
That is my take.
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

I do not see any issue. Read the verses in context, 651 onwards,- When you divorce women....

The context is clear. The verse is talking about the iddah of both women and girls who have not yet menstruated which can only mean prepubescent girls.

You see under age girls and they are not mentioned in any of the verses.

Dude, you are coping hard. THOSE WHO DO NOT MENSTRUATE can only mean menopausal women or prepubescent girls! Both classes of females are addressed in 654! Jesus Christ.

That is my take.

Yes, and this is all you can fall back on. Every tafsir, every classical scholar of the Sunnah, every book of fiqh from the Mukhtasar Al-Quduri to the Reliance of the Traveller agrees that prepubescent girls can be married/slept with. For 1400 years, Islamic scholarship has interpreted 654 this way.

All you have, is to fall back on your own singular interpretation which can ultimately mean anything if you choose to reject authority like most Quranists.

Peace Assassino.

Explained here;

The verse is talking about married women. Some women find that their period stops or becomes irregular before the menopause.
Where do you see under age girls in the verse?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

The verse is talking about married women and girls.

Some women find that their period stops

You don't say. Menopause is when a woman stops having periods. This is addressed in the first half of the verse.

or becomes irregular before the menopause

Red herring. Irrelevant comment. A woman who has an irregular period still has an iddah as long as she has had sex with her former husband as per Quran 3349.

Where do you see under age girls in the verse?

"Those who have not menstruated" means prepubescent girls. Menopausal women have already been addressed in the first half of the verse, in the second half, prepubescent girls are being addressed. It is a very simple deduction.

Repeating the same question will not make the problem go away.

Peace Assassino

Where is the issue with 654?

As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. As for those who do not menstruate, and discover that they are pregnant, their interim ends upon giving birth. Anyone who reverences God, He makes everything easy for him.
وَالّٰـٔى يَئِسنَ مِنَ المَحيضِ مِن نِسائِكُم إِنِ ارتَبتُم فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلٰثَةُ أَشهُرٍ وَالّٰـٔى لَم يَحِضنَ وَأُولٰتُ الأَحمالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعنَ حَملَهُنَّ وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجعَل لَهُ مِن أَمرِهِ يُسرًا

Where do you see under age girls in the verse?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Please read your own text. Girls who cannot menstruate are either prepubescent or menopausal. Menopausal women have already been addressed in the beginning of the verse. 654 clearly says that prepubescent girls have a waiting period, i.e. they have had sex (been raped) by their former husbands, as prepubescent girls cannot consent to having sex.

Salafism is a bubble created for those who are more vulnerable. My aunt is a Salafi (a rathy hippy one if I may add). She has a rather bad life; bad kids, horrible mother etc but her salafi community is like her family. It's pretty much what's keeping her feet on the ground. On one hand it has made her not lose her head whilst on the her religious views are on a bizarre league (you can't vote being a recent debate when she came by).

Anyways, I shall stop diverting the thread xD
Welcome. I hope you gain a lot of knowledge here as the brothers and sisters are very passionate about what they say. There's usually no universal yes or no answer on nearly all topics, familiarise yourself with that and you'll be fine.

May Allah make our Journey In life smooth

Heh, you pretty much described my Aunt in a nutshell. Niqabi clad, jobless and she doesn't care as she lives on benefits, doesn't want to work anyway, lives with her parents with her four kids (!), married to a bearded religious man (who at the same time is extremely unorganised and lazy), does all the required Islamic rituals but however is a huge mess and an extremely unpleasant woman who shouts at the slightest thing, can never think for herself and only ever socialises with her Salafi circle online on Facebook, Gmail etc. Her kids happen to be very unmannered, courtesy of their parent's upbringing and they create a huge ruckus - she never should have had 4 kids, one would have been more than enough but hey, it's "Sunnah" to have lots of children and Allah shall provide.

Not to mention of her 4 kids, she has 3 very young daughters, all of whom wear headscarfs, the youngest being 2 years old, and she intends on getting an arranged marriage to all 3 by time they hit 18 to Devout Orthodox Sunni Muslims! I really do feel sorry for them. Word of warning - do not attempt to debate my Aunty lest you stab yourself multiple times out of frustration. Thats what religion does...stops people from thinking for themselves. ...Just felt like getting that out

On Topic

Salam and welcome to the forum and sorry for derailing...

After having read the posts in this thread it seems you would not believe without concrete evidence.

I definitely see where you are coming from, before I read the Qur'an I felt the same way -- but I pose a question to you. Had there been hard evidence, would everyone not believe? Is that what God really asks of us?

From reading the Qur'an, I get the message that God wants us to put our trust in him. It is similar to a man coming to you, and narrating an extraordinary tale. It is of no difference of to him whether you believe his story or not, he knows it to be true.

And then the question arises, if the Qur'an is not from God -- how does one explain Muhammad's extraordinary insight? The greatest philosophers who have ever lived haven't managed to come close to recording something like the Qur'an, yet are held in higher esteem in the west.

StopS' post is good.

Yes it's come to a point where I need concrete evidence because I cannot rely on faith anymore.

My dilemma is that if God wants all of mankind to believe in his existence then why make his revelations so vague and devoid of evidence. I'm sure God asks of all of mankind to believe in him but even God knew from the beginning that this was impossible as there would always be non-believers. And like I said before I put my trust into Allah wholeheartedly for my whole life, but that never did anything for me. Anything I assumed to be beneficial was only the reaction of my emotions and now I do

I think it's interesting that the first "issue" you listed was the sex before marriage issue.

Whats interesting about this?

I don't have a GF if thats what you're thinking.

If God actually proved His existence I'd have no problem worshipping Him. But like every other religion that has ever existed, there is no evidence for God's existence.

It's a waste of time for me to post here any longer. Most people will never see any opposing viewpoint as valid. Everyone clings to their own beliefs regardless.

Are you sure people here always cling to the beliefs no matter what?

If we found existence of a God, then I'd still find it hard to worship or "serve" that God. Because I would want to understand why God wants us to worship or "serve" him when he doesn't need worship and he obviously has given us 'free will' so I feel there can never be a satisfactory answer to this. By implying that God wants us to worship him points to God having some sort of Ego. An all knowing and merciful God would let us go on with our merry lives without interfering as he decided to give us free will in the first place.

No one can tell you whether you are a believer or not. God alone knows what is in the hearts of humans. But I will try my best to respond to some of the things you've posted in the hopes of helping you ask more questions about what you believe and why or at least give my own contrasting views on them to start a discussion. It has gotten to be very long so bear with me. P

1. I think sex before 'marriage' is ok especially if it's between a loving couple.
   And is it impossible for people to have a loving relationship in a marriage? Or are you saying that marriage is not necessary if two people want to sleep together?

2. If I get married, I would be more comfortable marrying an atheist or an agnostic - or an irreligious person in general as I know they happen to be fairly open minded and tolerant (from my experience, far more so then religious people). They would be less likely to indoctrinate any future kids and/or pressure me to conform to any of their beliefs which cannot be proven. Sectarian muslims, fundamentalist Christians and Orthodox Jews would be at the bottom of my list.
   I have been close to many atheists and agnostic or irreligious persons. I have never been the first to bring up religion or my beliefs with them, I only answer their questions if they ask me why I do certain things and why and what I believe. I try to respect everyone's views and not tell them that they are wrong or stupid for what they believe. But every single one of these individuals have been intolerant of my beliefs. They have mocked it, telling me I believe in something that is "false" (astaghfurallah), and have been very rude towards my views. Some have even told me to leave Islam because they didn't believe in it.

In the uni I go to, I've taken many courses - in philosophy, sociology, biology, chemistry, politics, among other courses. In very many of these courses, the professors have often belittled religion in general and religious people. When I say they belittle them, I mean that they have said things that either explicitly or implicitly implied that religion is false and/or religious people are somehow unintelligent, non-reflective. And they never seem to say "in my opinion" or "I don't believe". It's said as if they are stating factual, objective truths. Sometimes they've engaged students in conversations mocking religion during lectures. I've walked out in those lectures. As such individuals are so open towards their discouragement of religiousness in strangers and friends, one may reasonably think that they would teach their children that all religion is false and that religious people are weak-minded (as those individuals have said or implied that to me themselves). I've heard of people who have to hide their religion or faith from atheist parents.

So, I've learned that atheists, like all people can be close-minded and intolerant when it comes to opposing views or beliefs.
I think that if someone strongly believes in something and thus wants to raise their child in an atmosphere where their views are upheld, then it would only create conflict if they were to raise children with someone with polar opposite views. From people I know, this only seems to work if both or one are not strong in their beliefs (whether it's the belief that no god exists - astaghfurallah - or that there is a God). It works better if both share most of the most important views and beliefs. In fact, this goes for any view or belief whether it is political or social (ie. how to discipline children, etc) if these views are sensitive, personal, and strongly held.

3. I don't believe in angels.
   This is curious. Why not? Is it because you find it unlikely that beings exist beyond our senses and experience, who are made of light, and who are obedient to God? Or do you carry a different image of them.

4. I dont believe that prayer is necessary, nor do I believe it actually does anything.
   Studies show that meditation and prayer, for even ten minutes of this time each day has been shown to alleviate stress. Also, decreased focus on the self has been related to heightened spirituality and the brain functions related to it. I believe that prayer increases this decreased focus on the self and heightens spirituality. My own experiences with prayer have given me comfort, sense of calm, determination, focus, and contentment. I've also found that when I stop praying, I tend to eventually return to all of the bad habits that I've been trying to kick and go into a not very good state of being and mind. I've linked some related articles.
   On the brain and spirituality (and decreased sense of self related to it) http//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2133032/There-God-spot-new-research-claims-instead-spirituality-exists-brain.html

5. The verse about flogging fornicators puts me off greatly. Does anyone here actually agree with this punishment?
   If we are to comment or discuss any subject that the Qur'an discusses, it is unreasonable to ignore relevant quotes and focus on one solitary one. This is the verse on flogging fornicators
   "The woman or man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment." 242

Notice that a group of believers must have witnessed this act.

This verse also follows
"And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient" 244

They need 4 witnesses. When people fornicate, they don't often do it public or where this many people may witness their act. The very act of accusing people of fornication without substantial evidence (thus engaging in gossip) is almost equally as bad as the differences between the two acts is 20 lashes. These rules, if enforced, may serve to protect people from undue gossip and speculation. Whether or not you believe that fornication is wrong is your opinion. But in many nations, fornication (especially by women) is already punishable. Such a law would protect them, in my view.

6. I don't understand why Pork is forbidden, because Allah doesn't give a specific reason. Why should it be forbidden when its perfectly safe to eat when cooked properly - just because God says so? And no, I'm not dying to try Pork, in fact I could easily live without it forever.
   I'm sure many people, considering the advances in science, can explain why pork is not good for a person to consume. However, I follow this not because it is bad but because that is what God ordained for believers. The very meaning of "Muslim" is submitter to God's will and "Islam" is submission to God. That is my religion. So I follow God's Word out of submission to Him and also trust. This relate to the narration of Prophet Abraham being told to sacrifice one of his sons. He chose to submit to God and kill his son as sacrifice. He did not kill his son as God prevented this, as it was a test. In the Qur'an, it says that the East and West belong to God, so wherever we turn, there is the Face of God (2115). So why, then, are we to pray in the direction of Mecca? The point is not the act of eating or not eating pork itself or praying facing the sky or facing the Kabbah. The point is the act of submission to God. It may be perplexing to some but this is what Islam is entirely about. God is the Truth, the Light, and Holy. To submit to this All-Knowing Being is an act of goodness in and of itself. The more I think about this, the more my thoughts lead me to the Universe, its truths, and the non-physical or what we cannot see or measure or sense.

Maybe try reading the Qur'an, specifically its verses regarding submission to God and things relating to the non-physical. Try to explore the metaphysical and research. Who knows? Maybe such earnest mental exploration may answer some questions and create more.

7. Did 'miracles' such as Moses parting the sea, river or whatever it was (since many here don't believe these events occurred in Egypt - if they happened, including me) actually happen? Because I don't believe in miracles and if God exists then I don't believe God would intervene for us measly humans.
   Yes. I do believe it happened. And an observation of the 99 Names or Attributes of God can show one the traits of God that relate to how He cares for us. Many verses show that God keeps the order of the universe. By that, I mean keeping the Universe and Heavens in place, the buoyancy of ships in seas, expanding the Universe, among very many other things. I will only quote some of the verses regarding this but there are many more. Our hearts do not beat without His willing it. We do not wake and live if He does not will it. The verse below shows this

"And He is (The One) Who takes you up by night, and He knows whatever you indulge in by daytime; thereafter He makes you rise again therein that a stated term may be decreed; thereafter to Him will be your return; thereafter He will fully inform you of whatever you were doing." 660

This shows that God is always "intervening" in keeping us alive for a period of time, in protecting us (there are verses in the Qur'an that mention this), among other things. Similarly, God holds up the heavens

"Have you not seen that Allah has subjected to you whatever is in the earth and the ships to run upon the sea (Literally in the sea) at His Command, and He holds back the heaven so that it should not fall down upon the earth except by His permission? Surely Allah is indeed to mankind Ever-Compassionate, Ever-Merciful." 2265

"Allah certainly holds together the skies and the earth lest they get separated and if the get separated, no one other than Him can hold both of them together . He is certainly Clement, Protectively Forgiving" 3541

The above verses, among many others in the Qur'an use God's Names/Attributes that describe Him as a Being that forgives, loves, creates, protects, and sets things into motion for our benefit and for His purpose whether we know it or not. Every surah except one in the Qur'an (so that is 113 in total) begins with "Bismillahi ar Rahman ar Raheem". This means "in the Name of God, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful". God's Names "the Most Compassionate" (ar Rahman) and "the Most Merciful (ar Raheem) are mentioned other times throughout the Qur'an as well. There are many other names that illuminate similar Attributes of God (ie. Most Loving, Source of Peace, the Gentle/Subtly Kind, the Preserver, among others). You can find them listed on this page http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Names_of_God

So the above verses (among others I did not quote) refer to God as a Holy Being that sets things into motion for our benefit and for His purpose. They also mention His Attributes which describe Him as the Most Loving, Compassionate, among other things. This describes a Being that does care for us "measly humans".

Regarding miracles happening, the Qur'an states they did happen. Read 189-1813. God states that the story (/miracle) of the cave dwellers is indeed true. Many other verses that describe other miracles state this as well. As for humans knowing or finding any evidence of these long-ago events the Qur'an describes many things that were learned after the Qur'an was sent down such as the combining of the egg and sperm in the womb, among other things. And humans learned this after these revelations were sent to us. God is All-Knowing and Most Wise and as such, He knows things humans do not and may never know. That doesn't make them any less true. As a submitter, I accept the Word of God as absolute Truth so I don't doubt these things happened. In fact, that's never been a struggle for me, in my memory.

8. Virgin birth is impossible (well not exactly in the modern day where women can get pregnant via artificial insemination - for example), so I find it extremely hard to believe that Isa was born from a virgin mum.
   This is a miracle. Read the response to 7.

9. I find it hard to believe in Judgement day. I also find it hard to believe in the after life - hell doesn't sound like a just punishment at all. Allah calls himself merciful but the Quran details hell in an extremely gruesome way; a place I would never wish my worst enemy upon.
   He is Merciful and He is also Just. Justice entails the punishment of evil deeds. Regarding those who refuse to discontinue their evil actions, who do not repent, who do not feel guilt, and who do not turn to God until they face Him on the Day of Judgment - if God so wills to punish such people, why should they receive forgiveness when they did evil, did not repent, and did not turn to God? Likewise, why should a man be spared from a life in prison if he has committed a grave crime, feels no remorse and does not want to stop doing his evil actions? In short, he shouldn't. In the name of justice, he should receive punishment. This is according to my own opinion. God alone is Master of the Day of Judgement, He alone will decide upon who to bestow His Mercy and upon who to inflict the Punishment of the Hereafter. Hell is a horrible place, but do you wish instead that all evil people were to spend eternity in Paradise? I believe that God is Just so I trust in His will.

10. In my opinion, being gay is natural for some people. Even if it isn't, I don't have a problem with relationships or marriages between same sex couples, though, being a straight person, it isn't my cup of tea.
    In my opinion, I believe that whether or not someone is gay is their own business. In cases like this, it is up to God what should happen to people regarding their deeds. It has nothing to do with me. But things that affect others are everyone's business such as slandering, murder, among other evil actions.

11. I don't understand why Allah had to create life, create fallible humans, communicate to the chosen people (i.e the Prophets, giving them 110% faith) in order to bring humans back to the 'right path' when he didn't need to create life in the first place.
    I don't know why God willed to create. There are many things we do not understand, about our own Creation (none of use remember it), about our own fate, about why some things happen, and many other things. I accept this. I seek knowledge but I also know I will never know some things.

Humans were given free will. And as such we can choose to believe, to disbelieve, to disobey, to obey, etc. Humans are fallible and sometimes go into error. Adam and Eve both erred when they ate the forbidden fruit. Rather than punishing them by sending them and their offspring to earth for eternity, God bestowed His Mercy upon them. He allows humans to live on earth for a period of time. Then they will be gathered on Judgment Day. Those who submitted to God and did good in this life may be rewarded in the Hereafter and those who did not may be punished in the Hereafter if God wills.

It is because we have free will that there are those who chose to go astray and disbelieve and because of their disbelief, they will not listen to anyone who tries to tell them the truth. The prophets and revelations were sent down to those who were ignorant because they had no knowledge of the Truth but those who will not listen will not change. This life is a test and determines what may be our fate in the Hereafter, if God wills. As such, how can people do good and believe if they never knew the Truth? So the prophets were sent for that reason, I believe.

12. Why did Allah have to create anything? It would have been better if nothing was created at all, then we wouldn't have to put up with all the problems this world has to offer (and the after life supposedly). It would have been nice if Allah gave a justifiable reason to all of this, but I guess there is none.
    God willed to inform us of some things and not others. As believers, we are told to Trust God. Part of that Trust is trusting in Him even if we do not know all that He knows, as God is All-Knowing. the answer I gave on 10 and 11 also relates to this.

13. Why does Allah get so angry when people worship idols or commit shirk, and then threaten them with severe punishment? Sure, worshipping an idol sounds pretty ridiculous but no one is getting harmed.
    In Islam, I believe that there is a relation between truth and good. Upholding what is true is good. Denying the truth and turning to lies and untruth is evil. There is an ultimate Truth and that is God. To deny the Truth is therefore evil. To disobey God is evil. We damage ourselves, our souls in the process if we do this. We purify our souls and light by doing good and believing. While in this world, the idea of utilitarianism prevails at times (ie. "Actions are right in proportion as they tend to promote happiness, wrong as they tend to produce the reverse of happiness" - John Stuart Mill - reverse of happiness here includes harm, lack of security, lack of prosperity, among other things that may produce happiness). But the higher order is that of ultimate good and evil and ultimate harm and benefit (to our own souls) rather than only punishing any harm done to others.

14. I'm starting to lose faith in the existence of a higher power?
    A lot of my responses came from the Qur'an. Why not take a deeper look at the Qur'an, aiming for an objective reading of it. So that would mean keeping the biases and opinions you already have on it and in general out of it and try to be as objective as possible. If something creates questions in your mind, explore it further by finding relating verses. Reflect on them. Reflect on why you have those questions and opinions, what cultural or other factors led you to have them? I've read the Qur'an before, a little, I believe but once I really sat down and focused on it, trying to keep out prior biases and beliefs, I really could explore it and reflect upon it. It's up to you to explore it or whether you can't bring yourself to do it.

These are all doubts that surfaced initially when I started losing faith in Islam (Sunnism) but at my discovery of Quran Alone Islam I was overjoyed and it seems I just brushed these issues under the carpet after receiving no satisfactory answers. But they've come back to haunt me. Does holding these views make me a non-muslim according to Muslims on this forum?

I feel quite sad that I have such doubts because I realise that I could be losing something that I've held close to me for my whole life...

I never said it's impossible for people to have a loving relationship when married, lol. And yes, if two people want to have sex, imo marriage is not needed.

As for me, I don't think I've come across any non-believer who mocked my previous beliefs probably because they simply never cared. Maybe it's because I've grown up mainly among muslims for my whole life, I dunno but the non-believers I know are great people. And I forgot to mention - along with religious people; a militant Atheist or someone like that would be at the bottom of my list as well.

I don't believe in angels because there is no evidence of their existence. The words of the Quran are not evidence, rather faith based evidence - something I can't really ascribe to anymore. Of course this depends on how you interpret malaika.

The requirement of 4 witnesses is bronze age mentality - likewise the flogging punishment; this sort of stuff used to happen in England 300 years ago. People should be free to fornicate a they please (should not be mistaken for me being a fan of fornication).

Again, God requires obedience to him, by ordering us not to consume pork. This is absurd. First of all, God - if he exists - does not need us to be obedient to him. Secondly, your just advocating blind belief - i.e. 'do not consume pork because god said so and because god said we have to be obedient to him.'

For these miracles to happen, the laws of physics had to be broken, yet there is no proof anywhere of such grand miracles ever occurring - just the idle talk of religion and divine scripture, whether that be Judaism, Christianity or Islam. Neither have hard proof to bring to the table and some people like me don't have faith to fall back on.

Now if Judgement day does exist, I'd suppose it'd be a good thing. But again, I don't have faith. Ideal things such as absolute peace do not exist in this world so of course humans fall back on to an afterlife in which absolute justice occurs. Of course with no evidence. If an afterlife does exist, I'm don't think it would be the one described in any holy book.

God would have done us a big favour if he explained to us why he decided to do anything but he didn't. He expects us to rely on faith and serve him, but I cannot.

Thanks for your reply peace

Salam assissino

When I read this topic, it shocked me how close your views are to my own. I can say that im in exactly your position at the moment.
If im bieng honest, if listed all my views and methodology, no doubt people would consider me athiest; which for me is the default position i.e not believing or taking true unless you have valid justification/evidence to do so. This justification/evidence is different for different people, some set the bar low and some like myself are very meticulous. So don't feel to disheartened at labels; like other posters have said labels dont really tell the whole story. One thing im grateful i learnt from quran only islam and this forum is to challenge ideas and question.

I have the same view with regards sex outside of marriage. I would however like to bring up the issue of STD's, it is obvious to state that their is a greater risk to catch std's when one sleeps around, but however the cause of the problem is not random sex, however it lies in bieng unaware that the person carries a std. Awareness and cause of the problems are the issues and those linking them to sleeping around is abit naive.

Marriage has come up alot for me as ive got to a stage where i'd like to start a family. the worrying thing is that i myself feel incompatible with many religious people. Open-mindness and tolerence i have noticed is more prevelant amongst free thinkers, those who reflect and study tend to be alot more suitable for me atleast. This rarely occurs among devoutly religious people and that is the problem for me. Say you marry a devout sunni/christian/hindu/anti-thiest etc and you have kids, you may indeed be open minded however if you significant other is really devout they will definitely enforce there views on kids. The issue boils down how invested the person is in there beliefs and whether those beliefs allow for them think outside of box.

to reply to your views on miracles. This is what has been the pivotal for me recently. When i first started quran only islam miracles i accepted as a package included with the power of God but chose not to devout time to studying it. I only took up interest in miracles recently when sunni's were flashing around hadiths as proofs of miracles and scientific miracles in the quran. This got me curious.

First we need to define what we mean by miracle ;-

1. a highly improbable but still possible event/occurance e.g falling from a tall building and surviving.
2. an impossible event/occurance which goes against the "laws" that we know govern our reality e.g an actual headless man walking and talking with his head in his arms.

In the case of 1 there are several claims that can fall in to this category, however you need to be aware that this implies that it is able to be explained and examined using science, if not they fall to second category.

Majority of the miracle claims of a religious nature fall in to the second. This is where the problems starts for me. Depending on how one defines God (its pointless otherwise), I'd say for purposes of this, God is limitless/boundless and cannot be comprehended meaning literally God can do absolutely anything. So it is in Gods ability to do the virgin birth.
now here's the thing the quran states that in few places that God does not go against our reality i.e his decree is unchanging (feel free to correct me if im wrong, cant remember the relevant verses might be mistaken), he can but he doesn't becuase of the business of free will etc. However he also states that he shows signs to us for those who believe and these signs include the virgin birth. Jesus was concieved from literally nothing and is like occurance of Adam from nothing ( im aware this is not the only interpretation). We know this from our understanding of reality that this feat is not only impossible but cannot be tested or reproduced. If reality tells us such a thing is impossible and untestable then how is one able to attest to an event such as the virgin birth even happening. Im told its a sign of God and fair enough but thats the same as me telling someone I the hear voices in my head which gives the correct lottery numbers but i choose not to play them. this is also a circular reasoning because God then requires us to believe to believe. When i need a good evidence to believe as a basis.

My view on the punishments in the quran seem to be very excessive and in particular the punishment for disbelievers in hell. The problem for me ties in with the concept of free will and it the following applies to the concept of hell in general for "sinful" acts

1. Did God create hell? according to the Quran i'd say yes.
2. Did God create the criteria by which the universe works and how souls are judged? according to the quran i'd say yes. He set the rules of reality and he set the rules of who goes to heaven and hell.
   3 Does anything happen that goes against God will or does anything occur independantly of God (something that God is NOT aware of)?
   according to the quran id say no. God is omniscient etc.
   4 So ultimately God is responsible for the for who he sends to hell and free will is irrelavent. And to say that we are responsible for our own fates is frankily contradicting various areas of the quran.

Their are various ways one can spin it but this just makes the whole idea of punishment for something god ultimately led us to do quite baffling. This also leads the question of how does one realise he is rightly guided? Like you said alot of question do go unanswered when going from sunni to quran only islam.

Id like to say something about faith. After years of contemplation ive realised in my own view that faith really isn't a pathway to truth. It for me gives me something to believe i have no good reasons to believe. For me in my sunni days it made me quite biased toward favorable sources and jump to conclusion. When i came to quran only i only kept faith in God but made a biased assumption that the quran was the word of God without any justification to do so. So here i am in a poition to evaluate the quran is what it say it is. and honestly its not looking very good.

Ive realised if God exists then he will exist regardless if the quran is true or not. For me my main desire is to know what is true and not what i want to be true, and that is a decision you yourself have to make.

My advise would be go first through the different arguments for GOD. Ontological and so on and also go through the oppositions to them also. then decide do you believe God exist or not. If you feel you like the idea of God then go and read up on various religions that interest you but remember be aware of the jump one can make from saying there is a god to quran is the word of God with no justification, its easy trap to fall in to.

Id also like to add that the quran itself is the claim and CANNOT be used as the proof of itself. by that i mean saying the quran is the word of god because it says it is the word of god is not proof. also contrary to what some may believe you cannot use the quran itself as a proof of GOD because you first have to prove God exists before attribute something to Him. Thats where you have to decide whether you believe god exists or not and analyse the quran to see whether it is the word of God, which i myself have doubts about

Good luck on your journey to truth.

Peace peace

Salam seekingtruth, I enjoyed reading your response peace. Also sorry for the late reply...and to everyone else who i wont be able to reply to...have been busy.

It seems we're both on agreement on most things. I can't accept the Quran is the word of God just because God says so, nor is there any evidence of there being anything remotely divine about the Quran. In my opinion, the supernatural and the divine do not exist, since there has never been any proof of either, only conjecture over the 4000 year history or so of the Abrahamic faiths.

And I agree, that first we need evidence of the existence of God. And even if there is, I have to ask, does it matter? God could exist, but that doesn't change anything in our lives does it? Our prayers still go unanswered and people still struggle to survive.

And good luck on your quest to start a family. Me personally, I'm not ready for such a thing...until a long long time. My family obviously want me to get married to a nice sunni muslimah, though thats definitely not going to happen. I think there'll be a few heart attacks the day I come home with a non-believing westerner and then I'll have to fear the wrath of my mum and my grand parents. Should make for an interesting thread one day. rotfl

So, do you still identify as a muslim? In your opinion are we still 'muslims'? (of course I don't care much for labels but i'm curious what others think)

Take care and post more peace

Hello,
Replies to questions # 1 - 9 in blue. These are my opinions and do not reflect the views of free-minds. Also, I haven't read all the other posts so what I say could be a repeat.

Peace.

Hi.

The reason why I said 'especially loving couples' is because I see absolutely nothing wrong with sex between a committed people BUT i'm not sure if I can either fault those who are mature enough to engage in casual sex? The idea of sleeping around doesn't sit comfortable with me but if there is consent among two people, im not sure if I can call this wrong. Yes, by doing so, there is greater risk of STDs, unwanted pregnancies therefore resulting in potential single mothers but by consenting, these are risks that the two people take into consideration. And if they don't, well tough if something bad happens.

You say

Marriage historically served a purpose, binding men and women to a contractual promise that if otherwise didn't exist, they could leave without a financial mess at their hands, and social stigma (motives for staying and working on the marriage - that's the reality). It is more pleasing to think that "a real loving couple" would not break up on a whim but they can and do, easily. Speaking as a female, I do not like the thought of a man leaving me after have relations with him. Some women can accomplish it, but in general, it is trickier for women to separate emotion from sex even those who have adapted to Western dating life. Marriage is a testament of commitment to the couple involved, the public, and to God. Maybe that stopped a while ago, but it ought to be that way.

Your'e right. But times change and people also change. You obviously wont like a man leaving you after having 'relations', but who's to say a marriage or some 'contract' won't prevent him from leaving you anyway? And is marriage really a testament to commitment? We often find marriages breaking up between people who've been married for years, or decades, while on the other hand, some couples live together forever without getting married or signing a 'contract', and I expect this to increase as less people get married due to people beginning to find it unimportant. Who's to say what the world will be like in 1000 years time, the concept of marriage may all but be forgotten. It wasn't that way before, due to a more conservative society, with people finding it necessary to conform to society and their family, and no doubt the will of the Abrahamic faiths shaping the majority of the World - and it still is this way in many areas; the country in which I have my roots for example.

It depends on what you teach your child. If you teach your child that God exists, and everyones destiny is heaven and hell depending on your actions, then you could class that as indoctrination. Neither of these things can be proven but a naive child would take it as fact if taught as such from an early age - children are efficient learners. Personally I think its not a good idea to teach young children about God, or religion in general but in the end the parents have control over their kids, and no one has the right to interfere unless there is physical abuse involved.

Usuary is often a bad thing but then again, society wouldn't be able to work properly without involving interest. If you plan on taking a loan, then your'e accepting the risks that come along with it, and if you find you cannot pay the debt, then you only have yourself to blame imo. However, not all are on agreement here. Some argue that context is required when looking at Quranic verses forbidding usury. Others say that if your financially stable then usury isn't a problem. This does need to be looked into more in depth. Besides, in the modern world, you can only buy a house without mortgage if you come from a wealthy family, or if you rise up from the ashes and become incredibly successful in life. The majority however, cannot.

On the instance of Pork, if you cook it properly then all bacteria and microscopic worms die and the meat is good to eat. This applies to most other meat, as most meat contains dangerous bacteria, especially red meat. You could probably capture a wild skunk from your backyard, kill it, skin it, and cook it with it being safe to eat in the end, though I highly recommend you do not try this.

If God did indeed send the Quran and Prophets, and performed magnificent miracles such as parting the sea/river, then we need to ask why God decides not to answer prayers, or at least most prayers. Because there are millions of unanswered prayers out there, and I can't remember if any single prayer of mine had been answered.

I find Judgement day hard to believe in simply because there no evidence to support it. Sure it sounds ideal, but things that sound ideal are often brought about by our own emotions rather than logic or evidence. The idea of God that always existed is ideal because we don't know what kick started the Universe. I guess we'll only find out for sure once we die, right now we can only speculate.

The verse says "believer for the believer and unbeliever for the unbeliever" so what's important is the state of mind. Many people will verbally say that they deny the existence of God, but their mentality and their hearts say otherwise.

What do you mean? How can one's mentality and 'heart' go against what they're thinking? Do righteous actions mean people are somehow believers in God even if they deny this?

I would argue that the important part of that video was about how pigs process food and where the toxins go and how fast they digest things. If a beaver's digestive system is 4 hours, then I'll agree with you but until then... elektro

Well tbh, i'm no scientist. So the physics behind a pig, a kangaroo or a cockroach's digestive system gets a bit long winded for me and I have to ask, does it really matter? As long as you cook Pork properly, the meat will almost certainly be good to eat and this applies to every other animal out there. In short, I don't think a Pig's (or any other animal's) digestive system matters if you cook the meat well and enjoy the food. eat

Regardless, Allah forbids Pig meat without giving any reason whatsoever, so we're just speculating here on why Allah in his infinite wisdom forbids pork. HOWEVER, if you're a fan of raw meat, I'd agree, stay away from pork at all costs. yes

I would argue that the body functions because of God. He also gave us brains to understand in which situations we'd stay alive.

But then it's our brains keeping us alive. P

Perhaps from your perspective it wasn't needed. God's perspective might be different. But that's only something He can answer.

It is indeed something God can only answer. And yet he didn't answer this in the Quran. Hopefully we find out one day why everything exists, though I doubt it.

Since when did God want blind faith? And why don't you think objective truth exists?

Did a quick search of "objective truth" and found this article http//atheism.about.com/od/philosophyepistemology/a/ObjectiveTruth.htm

So I kind of see what you're saying, I think.

Yes, but I'm also talking from a religious viewpoint. The 'fact' that God exists 100%, the after life exists 100% and our purpose is to attain jannah or heaven. Many people can't relate to this; for example, a muslim may pray to Allah 5 times a day, but not be able to feel his existence. The religion tells him to do it, but he doesn't feel anything. In short he's doing something he otherwise wouldn't simply because of fear of rejecting his/her God's demands and you could apply this to any religion/creed. On the other hand, with subjective truth, people believing what they feel is truth based on their own experiences and likes - in short thing we relate to. I'm not sure if i'm making sense here because this is a bit hard to explain.

Aww. Lol. I am very similar.

Good to know. laugh

Thanks, bro. I'm glad I could help a little.

Peace and blessings! yay

Keep up the long posts, I like them.

And yes, you like everyone else are proving to be good help even if I don't agree on certain things.

my answer is based solely on my understanding. which isn't much to begin with. bear with me.
1.(Sex before marriage?)
I don't think sex before marriage is ok based on the verses you've quoted about lashing the fornicators/adulterer.in google translate the word is translated as Adulterer not fornicator but this need to be study more in depth.

Why don't you think sex before marriage is ok? Just because Allah says so in the Quran? Needless to say, there is difference of opinion on whether extramarital sex is permissible among Quran Only muslims.

2.marriage with atheist? agnostic? muslim? in the end it all depends who that person is. for example you could marry an Atheist that doesn't like your beliefs and would prevent you from further teaching the child your views. being an atheist doesn't make a person open minded. nor does being in a muslim society makes a person muslim. Allah knows who and what we are.

I never said being an Atheist makes one more open minded. Thats why I specifically stated 'in my experience'. However, Irreligious people aren't bound by religious laws, so this may explain why Atheists etc, tend to be more open minded from my experience. It may also explain why some of the most successful countries have large Irreligious populations such as Sweden, Canada, Australia, Norway etc.

3. angels? as in Gabriel?(Jibreel) I think any person that believes the Quran was sent down from Allah/Creator need to recognise the character Jibreel.

I'd be more inclined to believe in this if there was some sort of evidence pointing to the existence of angels/invisible beings. People here may disagree on what the word Jibraeel actually means, so I think this needs to be looked into further.

4.Prayer is for our own well being. Contact Allah. so he might reply.

I have, numerous times. But I never got a reply.

5. see my answer above regarding this issue. if it is the command of Allah then we must hear and obey. (this verse needs more reading maybe it does mean "fornicator" rather then "adulterer&quot

Some people aren't sheep.

6.I think there is a verse in the Quran that forbids Jews from eating a certain kind of food because it was a punishment from Allah for what they used to do. similarly Allah has a reason to forbid us the eating of pork(maybe it is a test I don't know.. if a thing as simple as not eating a certain kind of animal should hinder a person from his or her deen then... ( )

Interesting that you brought this up. Yes the Quran does mention certain foods being forbidden for Jews, but then this begs the question Why? Why are Jews being punished for the sins of Jews a few (many?) thousand years ago? Original sin much?

7.Allah intervene?
it is easy for Allah, the splitting of the sea is as unbelievable to me as there is a giant floating ball of fire outside beaming energy rays to us. yes,I'm talking about the Sun. surely ONE that could create the universe and us humans.. the splitting of the sea would be nothing to Allah the Lord of the worlds.

OK. Sure it should be easy for God to do these things. But then this creates a paradox - Why doesn't God intervene in the modern world and answer people's prayers when he decided to intervene a few thousand years ago and do something as magnificent as parting the sea/river in half? God isn't being fair in this regard OR we could say that God doesn't answer prayers, and he didn't intervene in the past to perform miracles, if he is to be consistent. The Quran being revealed to Muhammad is itself a miracle. I think we need to investigate this further as well.

homosexuality?
Allah condemns homosexual relationships in the Quran. maybe a man could be attracted to another man but according to my understanding Allah has forbidden the relationship.

Maybe you think so but then we have to ask why Allah created Gay people in the first place, making life unfair for them. But again, there is a difference of opinion among Quran Only muslims, with quite a few who think Gay relationships are OK.

11. (why create humans in the first place?)
    All knowledge is with Allah.
    verse from chapter 2 verse 30 of the Quran
    Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said "I know what ye know not."

Allah effectively decided not to answer the angel's questions. Like I said, probably because there may not be an answer?

12.why did Allah have to create anything? it's a bit hard to answer this question.. even the angels probably don't know. Allah is free of needs. let's study the Quran more. you, me, and the whole of man. let's read.

Sure.

I reserve my right to remain silent on that particular topic.

Goodnight!

Ok, fine!

Goodnight, 230 am here, need some sleep...

Hello there Confused.

I'd say that I'm in the exact same boat as you. I have similar doubts, that have been bothering me ever since I started doubting Sunni Islam two years ago. I feel that since we grew up religion/faith, and kept it dear to our sides, we feel sadness when we know that we're heading towards disbelief - something previously alien to us. Personally, i'm drifting away to Agnostic Atheism, and if I state the truth, then I think I've been in denial about this for a good many months now.

What I feel is that instead of remaining in denial, you, me and everyone should embrace who you really are. There much more to life than beliefs. Besides, being a good person and enjoying life is the true purpose of life. No...what you make of life...thats your purpose, and it's completely subjective.

If you haven't read it yet, I made a thread a couple of days ago on this topic highlighting the reasons why I've been heading towards disbelief. Give it a read, I think you'll be able to relate to it. I'd also appreciate it if you drop a post or two, so that we can highlight some common ground between us.

Here it is

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604718.0

Take care of your self!

Yes, you sound like Mr. Muscle now!

London eh, you must be from Green Street or Middlesex, or somewhere as equally as dazzling.

Right, I can feel my muscles pulsating after this long workout.

Lol neither. Green Street dazzling? Nah, never liked the place for some reason. Care to answer my question about the Bham vibe thing?

Peace

I suggest learning about the Mathematical Miracle of the Quran, as it helped me attain 100% certainty that God existed
http//www.masjidtucson.org/quran/miracle/index.html

Looks like this got lost in the crowd. I've looked it up, and studied it for a while. Never have been a fan of this 'miracle', and I don't think anyone can truly claim that God exists 100%. I feel like those who do so are lying to themselves, in my opinion...

In the environment and community I've grown up in, calling yourself a muslim is top priority.

I don't know why I think you're from Birmingham. You must have the Birmingham vibe about you.

Well, being a "Quranist", you're probably not a "Muslim" anyway. Being classed in a group or category is only useful for societal purposes. To me, it serves no purpose in matters of faith which are directly between the individual and The Creator. What does it matter what label you have. Labels serve no purpose, and they only serve as much importance as you choose to give them. It matters only how you feel and how you act. I am sure there are people out there who have never heard of the Qur'an, but could, characteristically, be "Muslim", because of how they feel and act.

I don't know, dear Assassin, but it seems to me that perhaps you just need to go on your path and do some pondering. No one can dazzle you with "The Light". Some folk here have given you some good links. There are a couple, I personally am very dubious about, but I am not a censor and you need to find your own way. Anyhow, I hope you look into all of them, and have a ponder. But please don't forget to read the Qur'an-THAT is the source, after all and that is what must be given primary importance and be analysed. I am curious to know to what extent you have already read and studied the Qur'an. (Feel free to answer that. It is not a rhetorical question!)

Finally, be patient with yourself, be honest and search for "The Truth". Insh'Allah, it will come to you.

May God guide us all.

Salaam.

Haha, no. I'm a London boy, have been all my life. What makes me have the Birmingham vibe? You a Bham woman?

And yeah I agree with you. On an individual level, labels don't matter to me. It matters a lot to others especially Sunni/Shia muslims for example; and I also hold similar views to you. I believe anyone could be a 'muslim', depending on their actions and not their belief however I'm not sure if this is what I want to believe compared to what the Quran actually demands.

As for the Quran, I've read it a few times, and studied the verses diligently on topics that I find most interesting, troubling or important. Such as the topics I've been bringing up in this thread.

@Lookitup

I've been writing long answers for quite some time now and feel like I need a break.

However, in short, I disagree with nearly everything you said.

Dear Assassin,

Well done to you, trying to respond to everyone!

Haha lol, its not an easy job! muscle

5. The verse about flogging fornicators...

Traditionally islam has forgotten the whole thing about sura An-nur where this thing about fornicators comes and has given the stardom to the flogging of fornicators -when not stoning- but, if you go back to the Qur'an and read the whole thing, you will see that the gist of all those ayas is not punishing fornicators or adulterers, but shutting up and shaming gossipers, slanderers and defamers. No word too much is spent on adultery, but the tirade against slanderers, specially slanderers of women goes on. So what it amounts to is to tell the people, either you go outright and accuse and bring witnesses, no less than four, or you shut up your mouths, you filthy slanderers.

To have four witnesses to that act, as you know, if the actors do not want it so, is very very difficult, if at all possible, so you should look at what the Qur'an says and not be hypnotized by the flogging or whatever it is.

So if traditionally this thing has gone off tracks, it is not the Qur'an's fault but people's fault, as it happens usually with everything. Everything usually starts with great ideals and then there comes people who will spoil even the most fantastic and pure purposes and pursuits. That is why it is important that people change themselves, not that they change the book they read. When they change they will also change the book. Of course one thing may feed the other.

I see where your coming from and I used to hold the same views. But in the end, I wondered why Allah couldn't just say in clear cut terms, that slandering, gossiping is one of the worst things a human can do, while not mentioning any 'flogging' punishment. And what happens if 4 witnesses are presented?

In any case, I agree, I need to go back and examine this further.

Hell.

Hell and paradise are temporary experiences, and I think that you basically take wrong the concept of punishment, which sounds a bit like vengeance, blind vengeance, like some psycotic needing to give vent to his own frustration. That is the idea I see you seem to get from the whole thing. I think you should get away from that conception.

There is no punishment-vengeance nor reward-patting on the shoulder. What there is is the law of Creation, whereby everything transforms and develops. If you overworry and gnaw at yourself, you very likely will end up having some stomach ailment or some cancer. If you are an evil person, willing to harm anybody for your pleasure, or to disregard any evil may befall others for your sake, you are filling yourself with spiritually toxic material. Well that toxic material will have to go away some way or other if you want to get whole, or not? So the Fire, spiritual fire will purify you,

Because, and that is very important, everything and everybody ultimately, as is repeatedly stated in the Qur'an will return to God, which is the only thing that exists, the only existence. We all, in sha Allah will purify, either the soft way in the stages of Paradise, or the hard way, in the stages of jahannam and when we are completly purified will be returned into God, whole purification is the end stage and the reabsorption into God. To God is our destiny. So no horrible revenge and irrational punishment but simply our way back. We come from God and we go back to God, as per Qur'an and as per every revealed religion, which, thorugh the Qur'an and our own understanding is the onlyone religion, the universal religion, revealed by God to prophets sent to every people.

Why did God do such a thing as make us come and then go back?

Well He is God and He wants to. When you are back to Him, ask Him. But while here, you just have to take and accept His explanations or have your own or not to have explanations. We are created out of His rahma, because He creates us out of Himself, like we are a dream of His. He dreams us. And like every dream, we are of the dreamer and do not existby ourselves save as long as the Dreamer wants to dream us.

In fact I used to believe something similar to this too. But in any case the question simply moved onto why God felt the need to do any of this in the first place. You say because God wanted to. I can't accept this because I need to know why God wanted to. By God wanting to create something, implies that he felt the desire to do something. God isn't supposed to feel human emotions is he, he's nothing like us and we can't come to terms with him. Am I making sense here? Anyways if there is a God, then we will find out one day.

On the whole, Assasino, I would tell you not to worry about believing or not believing, it is the same thing. We always believe something, even if we do not know what it is. As creatures that do not know everything, and nobody knows everything, those parts we do not know, we fill in with beliefs, consciously or unconsciously. Sometimes we tell ourselves consciously that we believe something, but in fact we may believe the opposite. All that is just mental coming and going and of no consequence. What is important is what is in the heart. If you are good to people and things; if your heart loves or hates or feels like doing some sacrifice for the sake of goodness. If you are caapble of helping things along or at least of retaining yourself when you would like to spoil them. That is your heart, and it is int he heart where Belief is and where you know God.

Do not worry, you will get there in your own time. Obviously you have tried and you are trying, so you will get it. No doubt about it, but in your own way. It does not matter if you cannot put any label on what you do or you become. Hearts can do without labels.

Best wishes and

Salaam

I found this beautiful and I completely agree. Thanks a lot.

Take care and salaam.

Welcome back Assasino ) Long time no see?

Hello Maha. It has been a long while, good to see you again. peace

Again I agree with you. I find atheist and agnostics to be generally far more tolerant, open-minded and civilized than religious people. Being orginally from Pakistan, being atheist (la-deen as they call it in urdu) is highely negative and I used to mock atheists along with my other pakistanis friends untill I start loosing faith in Sunnism and began to befriend atheists and I was utterly astonished by how good heartet some of them are.

We're both similar in this regard lol. I used to dislike atheists too, mainly because I hated their guts, and how they couldn't see that there must be a purpose to all of this. Interesting how opinions can change so quickly, huh.

I do have the same opinion as you, however I think every normal human prays - some openly by rituals and some without even realizing it.

Maybe, but the last time I made even a simple dua must have been months ago.

No I dont but I think flogging isnt ment to 'fornicators' but people who practice ZINA which is a sexually shameful act openly.

Your interpretation of zina is an open sexual act? Well, I've heard of this before and used to think this myself, but regardless the punishment is barbaric. A small prison sentence and/or a fine for an open sexual act is enough imo. No one should have to get flogged 100 times in public.

Here I disagree with you a bit, I thinj miracles DO happen, maybe a miracle happened to you without you realized it? Like the other day I was almost one second away of making an accident, but somehow the accident didnt happened.. miracle from God maybe? hmm

Not sure if I would class that as a miracle. If such a thing happened to me, I'd classify it as sheer luck and move on with my life.

Well I do think there is something after this life, otherwise our lives would just be without purpose? But what excately is after life - I dont know. I hope hell does exsist for evil people, maybe God is merciful because he punishes evil people who have made life a living hell for others? But then again, why did God create evil in the first place (

Our lives do have purpose, many don't realise it, or fail to grasp it IMO. I think hell as described in the Quran is a barbaric punishment for even the worst of people.

As long as a gay or lesbian doesnt harm anyone, I dont have any problems with them. However, I personally find same-sex intercourses highely disgusting yuck

I find same sex intercourse between men nasty...moving on.

my question is more, if God is merciful why did he created so much unfairness and evil? Just think about how all sociopaths and psychopaths can keep commiting evil towards innocent people. Why does God allow that? ( ( (

Exactly.

Because people who worship idols do much harm to their fellow humans. Just look at what sunnism has done by worshipping their scholars, they have killed so many innocent people, enslaved millions of people and keep their fellow believers in control.

Do they? Maybe so but anyone can be an idol. Christians today idolise Jesus but then again, most Christians today are very tolerant, at least in Europe. People idolise celebrities but you aren't harming anyone by doing so, though I do find this to be quite stupid.

How do you define higher power?

Whatever created the Universe and controls it? I'm not too sure...

Peace. peace

Peace Assassino,

I was trying to make this short but I failed. (

I hope you don't mind. You may disregard this if it's too long and tedious or if I've posted too many links.

Peace inquisitive. And no, I never mind any long posts, in fact you've done me a favour by posting such a long and detailed response. Thank you.

In my opinion, this is very good. It means that you are questioning things and that you're sincerely looking for the truth. Keep seeking the truth and God will guide you.

Now on to my response. I've been seeking the 'truth' - whatever it is or whether such a thing as 'absolute truth' exists - for the majority of my life, if not my whole life. And I don't expect God to guide me anymore simply because of my lack of faith, so I try my best to guide my self without any outside help now.

When I started doubting Sunnism, it was because I read an article about the pagan origins of Islam and the author likened Allah to the devil and Muhammad as a satan worshipper. &
Since the archaeological facts he presented were correct (which I confirmed with several sources), it made it hard for me to believe that the Quran was a legitimate book and that Allah was indeed my creator. But despite my doubt, I continued to read the Quran always questioning and God showed me what was right. But man was I ever thankful that there are 99 attributes of God because I was reluctant to use the words "God" or "Allah" for about a month!

I started doubting Sunnism for several reasons. Sharia punishments such as death for apostates and stoning adulterers to death, among many others, is why I initially starting doubting Sunnism - even though I used to accept these punishments (I guess indoctrination from an early age does that). After months, doubts grew bigger until I faced questions such as the ones I'm asking on this thread. But I can't describe how happy I was when I found Quran Only Islam, because it came without all the baggage that comes with Sunni Islam, and was a far more logical, open to interpretation and tolerant version of 'Islam'.

What's your definition of marriage?

As for my interpretation of marriage, I'm not too sure. I certainly don't think it involves any ritual, such as for example there needing to be 2 male witnesses or 3 female witnesses, the permission of a 'wali' to marry of his daughter or the permission of a sheik, an oath between the two people, and dowry for the bride - I don't believe in such rules and rituals when it comes to marriage. Now I don't know what the Quran Alone demands in a marriage, as many on this forum aren't in agreement with each other and I had never really made up my mind. Can a Muslim marry a polytheist or an atheist? If such rules exist then I don't really believe or follow them. The official definition of marriage is a formal union between two consenting adults, recognised by the state or law. I don't really think its that important anymore, if you don't follow a religion, as a married couple can live just as well as a non-married couple.

At first I disagreed with you, but then I really thought about it....you're right! Lol. Makes sense.

Yup. P

Root word for "Malaika" Miim-Lam-Kaf = to rule/command/reign, be capable, to control, power/authority, king, kingdom.

Also Lam-Alif-Kaf = To send, to send a message, to send anyone towards.
I don't see the word "angel" anywhere here.

I guess I got caught up with Sunnism for a while. Yes, terms such as malaika, shaytaan etc, when translated properly are in direct contradiction with what ahadith and the consensus of the four schools of thought tell us.

I am also queasy about this verse. I think that this subject would be important as its own topic and I'm very interested to hear what people have to say about it.

I agree.

Oh, man. I know why pork is forbidden. Here's a short video about the cons of pork...from a Christian!
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqWoNamMiYo

I remember watching that video on Pork a few months ago and believing him. But now that I think about it, a Christian Preacher trying to tell us the science of a Pig's digestive system seems kinda amusing. P
Pigs are omnivores, so they'll eat most things, and wild Pigs are no more dirty than their wild beaver cousins, meaning they aren't that dirty at all in the wild and help in maintaing a healthy environment (in the wild of course). More so, Pig's raised on a farm in a healthy environment that are taken care of are perfectly ok to eat, just incase anyone thinks Pigs are inherently dirty. When cooked properly, you can just about eat every type of meat.

I dunno. I think that these things certainly need to be studied in more depth.

Certainly.

Red Why not? God is always keeping your body alive. He takes care of you when you sleep and He helps you wake. Think about it. How do you wake up? How do you breathe? He is there for you 24/7 because if he wasn't, then you wouldn't exist.

3942 God seizes the souls at the time of their death; and for those that have not died, during their sleep. He then keeps those that have been overtaken by death, and He sends the others back until a predetermined time. In that are signs for a people who will think.

Does God keep our body alive? Or the body functions as it was meant to if all the elements needed exist, such as oxygen, food and water. God doesn't keep us alive in space or underwater, humans do - by building the technology needed in order to survive in such places.

I think that if you knew the reason, there would be no purpose. But that's just my opinion. I think this question needs to be answered by God Himself, so keep your ears and your heart open for the answer.

Maybe, but then that begs the point. Why? None of this was ever needed in the first place as we would have had no purpose if we knew God's intentions. Though being a good person, and doing the things I love is good enough for me.

Well no wonder! Why did you stop investigating?

Hmm, I think I worded my self wrong. I used to question these things a lot, but after receiving no satisfactory answers for some time, I stopped caring and tried to focus on what the Quran says instead of wondering what God's plan is. Until now.

I'm not exactly sure what kind of a situation you're in, but at first glance I only see you questioning which, in my opinion, is quite healthy. I think there's a difference between rejection and inquiry. You could say my monthly phase was rejection - I kind of thought it was, too - but in the end I'm glad I questioned things. I'm glad because when I finally found the truth, my love for God became stronger than ever.

I hope you find the answers you need in life. Always keep seeking answers because if you give up, how will you ever find what you need?

I hope I've helped in some way, but you can always disregard my comment.

Peace and blessings. peace

Thanks for the links. I'll check them out.

As for the Prophets being in doubt, God showed them actual miracles. I've never witnessed a miracle, and I don't think they exist.

And I've been skeptical for a year now, nothing has changed except I've lost most of my faith. I don't think there exists such a thing as objective truth. Who knows?

As yes I'm always searching. My mind is like that, I'm always thinking even when I don't want to. You could call me a day dreamer. P

You have helped, as I now know not to get Quranic words mixed up with the Sunni interpretations such as maliaka. Keep up the long answers, I enjoy them, though they do take a long time responding to. ;D

Dear Assassino,

I don't think it is for anyone to say whether you are Muslim or not. You believe what you believe and you disbelieve what you disbelieve. Having a label or coming under a category such as "Muslim", I think, is redundant to a large degree. Only He who disposes of all affairs knows what is truly in your heart.

I can't really help you with your queries. I hope, perhaps, someone can, and I wish you all the best.

May Allah subhaan'Allah wa ta'ala guide us all.

Salaam.

Perhaps. But I'd like to know if I'm a muslim according to the Quran, but I guess its far more difficult than in Sunni'sm/Shia'i where the slightest bits of criticism can take you out the fold of 'Islam'. And are labels really redundant? I think it depends on your environment and community. In the environment and community I've grown up in, calling yourself a muslim is top priority.

Most of your questions are about formal issues. In my experience you need to clarify for yourself

1. do you need and appreciate spiritual assistance in this form?

I don't need it but it greatly helps in my understand of Quran Alone, and the debates are often good to read with good manners shown on all sides.

2. does praying or feeling like you are connecting to a higher being bring emotional comfort?

If you asked me this 2 years ago, I would have said yes, praying salaah was my number one priority in which I felt like I was being dutiful to my religion, listening and communicating with Allah, and getting rid of any guilt from previous sins by making a dua after every prayer.

As a new Quran Alone muslim, I felt like prayer was the way to communicate to Allah, in which I would ask him to help me be a better and more successful person but due to previous doubts, this didn't last long and it wasn't long until I stopped praying and instead changed my interpretation of salaah. But now I feel nothing, I feel its a useless form of exercise to be quite honest and never pray, and I don't think I ever will now. Well, expect for when I pretend to pray the ritual Sunni prayer because I'm expected to...which is quite often.

If not, I would analyse the purpose of life and an afterlife and how you can consolidate the two.
I know the feeling and I've been sitting at my desk expecting a bolt of lightning to come down and hit me for thinking such doubtful thoughts. After all, it's called faith for a reason.

Haha tell me about it. I've analysed the 'purpose' of life, and tbh I don't think there is any objective purpose in life. Instead, there are only subjective purposes...purposes we create for our selfs based on what we enjoy and love, in this life. I still remember from my early skeptic days as a Sunni where I considered God could punish me in this life for my indecent thoughts. I get nostalgic every time I think about it.

Peace Assassiono

Only You and your Lord can tackle all the points you mentioned.

Do you believe Qoran is the word of God? Do you value/believe and take what it says seriously?

To be quite frank, not really - it's hard to believe in a personal God let alone divine scripture now. I do however value many things the Quran states but at the same time I don't value a lot of what it says, for example, lashing adulterers/fornicators. Hence I cannot take it completely seriously. But I do acknowledge that it was far ahead of its time.

Do you believe it has all the answers? Do you believe its author is the one who helps you find these answers?

No.

Then wear your heart in your sleeves, put on your sincerity hat on, trust your creator completely and with honestly., show patience and perseverance and go find your answers from the Lord and Qoran .
Ignore all other sources from here or anywhere else. Even if you start again.

Best of luck with a new journey. Implore your Lord to help you with each question.

See what happens.
Best of luck.

Peace.

I have trusted Allah for the vast majority of my life. But I never received any satisfactory answers, one of the reasons of my lack of faith/disbelief.

Be a source of peace, safety and security - to be a muslim and be not a hypocrite.

Is this what the Quran says?

watching Pornography isn't bringing another person in, however, it is still a sin.
My view and from personal experience, Masturbation is a sin. tempt

what's the point of getting a spouse, if you can do it by yourself?

Salam bro.

Your statement is similar to Sunni muslims who insist muslims should marry early on in order to avoid mingling with the opposite sex. Its quite absurd.

You do realise that some people have no desire to marry or don't want the burden of a family, should these people avoid masturbation for life? Or what about a woman who is pregnant or on her period where she might feel uncomfortable having intercourse. Whats your solution, force ourselves to wait a few weeks, for some action? ) Or even worse, when a couple have arguments, perhaps break up and live separately. You might be out of action for a year or two, maybe more if you're unlucky. )

Rigid thinking such as this is rife in Sectarian Islam, Catholicism, Orthodox Judaism etc. You would expect a Sunni scholar to advise you to get married in order to avoid masturbation - as if thats a logical thing do do.