Salaam Sarah, all,

The mathematical analogy provided has 3 logical fallacies, and is thus not a valid analogy but a fallacious argument. I will call it the FALLACY OF FALSE ANALOGY !

1. First premise is made based on absolute verifiable facts, and then a second premise is made based partly on unverifiable info, and then the two are considered analogous.

For example, in the first equation

S = {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ..... N, (N+1), (N+2), .... (any addital numbers u come up with)}

The set of numbers highlighted in red comprise absolutely verifiable and definable numbers, but in the second equation

Quran = {Rule 1, Rule 2, ....... Rule N, (prophets practices and lessons applicable from them)}

How does one know whether what are termed "prophet's practices" are actually prophet's practices ? Thus the set of practices or rules highlighted in red above are not absolutely verifiable and definable, but based on UNVERIFIABLE HEARSAY AND UNVERIFIABLE DEEDS. The analogy therefore is a FALSE ANALOGY.

2. Let us consider the first equation again

S = {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ..... N, (N+1), (N+2), .... (any addital numbers u come up with)}

The set of numbers in blue is clearly NOT COMPLETE, as it DOES NOT INCLUDE the set of numbers in red; however in the second equation

Quran = {Rule 1, Rule 2, ....... Rule N, (prophets practices and lessons applicable from them)}

Because of the usage of the word "Quran", the set of rules in blue is clearly COMPLETE relevant to our guidance by definition, and thus automatically INCLUDES the set in red. (Quran is fully detailed and complete, includes every example, and is a clear explanation of everything relevant to our guidance, and is enough for our guidance, and the prophet followed only the Quran, AND THUS THE RED PART IS ALREADY INCLUDED IN THE BLUE PART).

Again, the analogy is a FALSE ANALOGY.

3. "S" in the first equation consists of INFINITE numbers, whereas "Quran" in the second equation consists of FINITE rules.

Again, the analogy is a FALSE ANALOGY.

The mathematical analogy indicates faulty/poor logic and/or ignorance of some facts !!

Criticism of my analysis and any mistakes in my reasoning is welcome.

I am more of a reader on this site but I had to post here. Couldnt go past the logic stuff on an islamic site. lol...The logic provided in sarahs post isnt that bad actually.

Tanveer... I understand you are a very wise man since you were able to grasp enough of the logical analogy that u so finely claim to be false.

I should remind you there is nothing wrong with such analogies, Allah himself uses analogies in the Quran to help us understand certain statements He makes. And since you are so aware of the Quran that you claim so COMPLETE, I am sure you wont need to be reminded of any single such analogy from it.

I dont know where you came up with the logical cut n paste sarah, but it could certainly be worded more appripriately to account for some of the week spots tanveer is raising. But surely enough the arguements shown in the set theory isnt that bad, I am impressed. we need more muslim mathematicians.

Tanveer, I draw your attention to the point (3) that you state you indeed admit, Quran in the second equation consists of FINITE rules. and taking these rules one by one (not including the red part highlighted), you claim these are the FINITE rules that make the book COMPLETE in this such diverse life (with INFINITE choices and problems) we live in, today, in 21st centory?

I see some great truths in the arguments mentioned in those set theories. I do see some weekness in the wordings, but I think I can mend that. But I am not going to. its not worth it seeing how stupid some ppl here have been.

Your point (2) ... again your claims are quite falacious. Quran by definition (if only BLUE rules are considered) is not complete. Re my above points.

Prophet indeed followed the Quran. Did he also find the way to perform prayer in the Quran? Is that why he did it the way we do it now? I wont even bother mentioning other examples.

I would take heed to what someone wrote here "if sea was the ink, then it would run out before Allahs words could be finished with it". indeed Quran is a cut down, compact for me dos n donts. absolute bare minimum to keep the faith. it is pretty much as the above set described. A collection of FINITE RULES, and with the INCLUSION of one important "property" (u cud say rule) of allowance of "take heed from prophets practices".

Yes you could be right what we call prophets practices, how do we know if they r realy his practices. Well then i cud ask, what you call Quran, how do you know if its realy is EXACTLY what Allah ment to send down?

Talking about sending stuff down, for those who think the prophets job was only to note down the message, I would say, well if that was the case then Quran would have been sent down within 1 min. I am sure you Allah could excercise his 'ability' to do things lightning fast. But NO! it was sent down over years! 23 years is it? correct me perhaps??? why??? so we cud follow it word by word? I dont think so.

A sane explanation would be, to memorise it, understand it, and watch how it was practiced by the prophet. A good analogy I could give is Quran is like a skeleton, and prophets practices would be the meat covering it, giving it an example of "HOW" it could look like in the end product. It is VERY IMPORTANT to stress that prophets practices would NOT be the ONLY way to cover up (Mesh around) the skeleton. Just as there are different looks from one human to another human (resulting from varying formation of meat on the skeleton), there would be surely more than one way of doing things, and not just blind following every single practices the prophet did. Indeed the prophet stressed this very point also.

Having said that... for those who want to be on the 'safe side' or 'i dono he did it this way, so i thought it was the right way', we can take prophets practices as the 'model' and work on it.

The Verse
?O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger, and those in authority amongst you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.? (459)

I think this verse is an enough clue to represent the argument showed in the set theory posted by Sarah. For those seeming wise out here, I would like to ask, why cudnt Allah say "Obay Allah" only??? are you saying Obeying the messenger same as obeying Allah? if so why didnt Allah say Obey Allah and then Obey Allah again! I thought Allah was wise enough to use words very efficiently SPECIALY when Quran claims to be an art of devine poetry. Such imperfect art it would be then ay? sigh

For those who are wise and humble, I am sure they will see Allahs reason for chosing the words correctly. And wait Allah mentions again, hence stressing the point, follow those in authority, but if u r in dispute then follow Allah AND his messenger.

Anyway... I am not able to finish off here as I wanted to because of timing constraint. But I believe there are two issues 1) Believing prophets practices are a good way to understand Quran. 2) SOME hadiths are indeed what was practiced in prophets time.

I would say ppl start with 1) first. then once that is in place he/she should move onto 2). if u cant have a firm ground on 1) then I suggest you make your own religion. and if you cant have a firm ground on 2) then I say you might as well not hav faith in the way Quran was preserved.

hhm.. interesting restrictins honor. I would have to agree there that that is heading certainly towards abuse. hhm... i hate to ask but i would anyway, why are you then sticking with such a man?

I thought you said they deny this, so I was curious to what they perceive..

they deny wen you reason with them, and finally they deny to themselves by performing makeups on themselves.

So the women that apparently deny makeup etc what is their view?

Their views are pretty much as BOOST describes.

Gratefull to Allah for letting me live.

PEace All

.....

1. He asks me not to go out with mixed company at night unless under certain circumstances.

2. He asks me to come home before 10 pm.

3. He asks that I not associate with my male colleagues more than on a professional basis.

4. He asks that I not be over-friendly with people of the opposite sex because they take it the wrong way. He understands me very well. My reaction to a man who is showing me attention is to laugh. But my laughs are more out of shyness and not feeling comfortable with the situation. He recognizes that but wants me to stop doing it because it gives a man the green light to keep going.
   ...

I have seen and been in such situations 1st hand. So I can relate.

1. I personally will not like my wife to go out at night or day with mixed companions. Unless something like that was realy necessary. the question I would like to ask is what could such a necessary situation be? Imagine him being home expecting the wife to be with him, while his wife is out with male and female companions doing watever. Does that look justifiable? But she should certainly be allowed to go out in groups with female (well manared) companions.

2. Coming home around 10pm well such a restriction should not be placed unless a man notices his woman is coming home late quite frequently. I mean 10mins late and he yells thats just not right. But then again if you were given such a restriction then you should be able to plan the resturant and food such that food is ready on time and you are ready to leave by 10pm.

3. I think there he makes a reasonable request. why would you, when you have a partner?

4. He could be right there. Women surely look a lot prettier when they smile/laugh. and it can give guys the green light that he is being successful in giving her a good time, which is how he gains a place in her. By the way if you think you shy and are not comfortable being in the situation then i suppose the right thing would be to not give out that laugh )

Hhm... I have seen where the female has male and female study groups as well as one on one with the opposite sex... and things go all fine and normal and acceptable, and then things proceed to inviting friends over for dinner or lunch, be it groups or be it atleast one. which i would think is a lil more than the professional dealings. I prefer if my woman dealt with female study groups, I would just be more comfortable thats all.

At the end of the day, as someone said, plenty of fish in the sea. So if you think this is not how you cant imagine urself being in future, then its time you leave him. And I can pretty much assure you guys like this dont improve.

The advice I will give you, is to do things for him more beyond what he asks you to do. that is one way he can gain trust on you. if that and other genuine efforts dont work then oh well you know what to do. Personally, my realtion didnt last, and such issues played a part in the split. So yeah its not a good thing.

when and if you are late home for any reason and he is yelling at you, have you tryied saying sorry pollitely and giving him a hug and explaining to him why you were late?

Peace all

i do know women who are alot more modest externally than i am and they haven't the slightest idea of what islam is. they put nothing on their face except soap and water, they wear very loose clothes, and their hair is always tied up in a ponytail or bun. they are also very content and satisfied. i think mascara or eyeliner really is a crutch. high heels force you to stand with your chest sticking out and your butt in or you'll fall over. it's anatomically impossible to walk with a normal posture if you're wearing high heels. ladies you know what i'm talking about.

honestly i see my friends who really don't care to "fit in" or look the way the industry wants them to look, i see them as really strong and confident. it's the rest of us who need to reach that level and recondition ourselves to accept us without any enhancements, cover-ups, distractions etc. it's only when we reach that level will the eyeliner and mascara go in the trash.

when me and my friends walk down the street i may be getting better treatment or more attention, but the keener or wiser person seeing us will realize that i'm the one with the low self-esteem and insecurities and not them. because i'm not comfortable wearing something that doesn't show my femininity and for them the external changes nothing inside.

i know this. i recognize it and i don't deny it. i really don't do it for myself, i do it for others. i do it because someone told me long lashes are in and natural lashes are not as noticeable. i just need to work on it cuz i'm not there yet.

Boost thats very enlightening. Thank you for being honest. I have seen and heard from a lot of women who realy know the truth but still denies it unlike you. May Allah give them more wisdom.

Peace Sis BOOST,

Just the fact that you're questioning it is a HUGE indicator that something is wrong. The sooner you learn to trust your gut instincts, the better honed they will become. If it feels like abuse, it is. Any and everytime you have to read into someone's actions, there is a problem. Take it from me sister, there's a lot of fish in the sea. Don't ever waste your time with anyone who doesn't make you feel great about yourself. Life is way too short to spend it trying to understand someone's "issues" and then trying to fix them. Take really good care of yourself and let people who are a drag on your spirit fall to the wayside. Everyone is responsible for their own growth. It isn't your job to be with someone who's actions are questionable. Become your best person, someone YOU value, and that's the kind of person you'll attract. Ending relationships with people who aren't positively complementing you is the most loving choice for both of you. Don't ever let yourself get caught up in a 'ship where you're constantly trying to understand why they just don't make you feel good. Move on girl, be strong. It doesn't mean you're not a loving person, it means just the opposite. If you don't love yourself, really love yourself, you'll never be with someone who can truly love you either. Everyone deserves real love, but it has to start with you.

peace sis,
lilyfleur

thats rather a biased and selfish response. You cant comment that strong without understanding the situation well. But I do agree with you, there are plenty of fish in the sea.

if you see you arent going to be able to live with kind of man for the rest of your life then its time to move on. Alternatively look at the things he is asking of you, if its for you own good, well then its an indication that you should listen to him. Not all good things will be sweet for you. Nevertheless its good for u.

oh ok

i guess you're right though. it's not very modest to flaunt your beauty or draw attention to your eyes with mascara or whatever. and that really is the purpose of mascara or eyeliner or anything else.

i guess i need to work on that personally because i can't not leave the house without something to draw attention to whatever "beauty" i may have.. i like people thinking i'm pretty even though i don't act upon anyone's interests since i have a partner, its not in my personality to behave immodestly and i'm very very shy in reality. but my secret happiness in others looking at my outer physique i guess is not very modest at all. but i think this all stems from a lack of self-esteem

but anyways, all of that rambling is not the topic of the thread so thanks for undulging me

Peace

it wasnt offtopic, i found all of that rambling to be quite relevant. Most if not ALL girls think just like that. Atleast you are one girl who understands the "purpose" of mascara or eyeliner. Thank God.

We all need to work on things.. Everyone likes to feel pretty, unless they think they're the most beautiful thing on earth, even then people are insecure about their looks and wanna feel good..

Interesting issue you touch on here Sarah. "insecurity of ones self image". you see we r "conditioned" everyday to think and act that way. we are conditioned so that others can make a living out of it. if you were sent to Venus (assuming it could sustain life) I am sure you wouldnt be worried about wearing clothings at all. you will be running around naked all over Venus without worrying of how you will look.

I think if there was no one to watch us we wont be decorating ourselves. Place urself in a world where you are the only one living and noone around you. if you start imaginging yourself like that, you will see the real truth. If you werent conditioned to grow up with a mirror and make ups i doubt u would know that you have a nose or two eyes and cheeks or how they actually look like.

we are brainwashed everyday to make us accept "u have to look pretty" "u look ugly unless you use this n that make ups" "u have to wear this n that". Seriously what is beauty? I bet if you were conditioned with the statement "poop is the best make up for ur face" you would be placing poop on your face everyday.

So at the end of the day its the way you are conditioned and made to think is how you come to be what you are. But peal urself from the nets of this complex life and try to understand urself, who realy u are, what realy matters to you most, what realy is U. you will see, you are nothing but one of the best of creations in skeleton cladded with meat. IT IS how you came to be, IT IS how you will leave, this life, not with make ups and heals. Surely there must be more important things on earth to be worried of.

Anyway thats all I had to say on your post.
Just a thought occured to me, if you were to appear infront of Allah now, would you be comfortable standing infront of him right now with yourself being wrapped in make ups and wearing high heels? You dont need to answer me.

A man/woman should walk on this earth with an attitude of "thank you so much Allah for letting me walk on this earth, to you i submit, and I am nothing more than a dust in this vast creation of yours", not with an attitude of flaunting or arrogance.

thank you lilifleur )

Hi pplz .... i m new to this forum. Interesting thread here. )
I have to agree with Wakas and lilifleur! Hope to read more stuff )