If we read verses 83-86 of Sura 6 we read 18 names, starting with Abraham and ending with Lot. Verse 89 confirms that all these 18 were prophets of God

"These are the ones to whom we have given the Scripture wisdom and prophethood"

Peace

You have taken the above verse out of context, thus interpreted it incorrectly.

89. Those to whom We have given the Scripture, and the law, and the prophethood, if they reject it, then We will entrust it to a people who will not reject it.

Notice Those whom we have given the Scripture, Law and Prophethood, If THEY...Who is they? the Jews, thus this verse is directly related to the fact that the Jews as a people were given the Scripture, Law, and Prophethood, and if they reject this favor,The God will choose to give it to another people.

I'll respond to the rest rest of your post tomorrow, Godwillingly.

Its late right now

Do you mean to say we shall never obey The Prophets since they cannot comprehend the Wisdom of Allah and that they they have such defects of any human such as misunderstand/misinterpret/misconceive the verses of The Book ? And as a result of this Allah feared that the people could be mislead by the prophets ? And with this serious lapse on the prophethood, do you think they could still uphold the Message ?

Peace,

Indeed I do, thats exactly what I mean and thats exactly what the Qur'an describes by pointing out the mistakes made by the prophet. The prophets understanding was limited to his own contextual understanding based on his environment at the time.

Example, verse 2130 describes to us in this day and age the Big Bang Theory, however in the prophets time verse 2130 described a general description of The God cereating the universe. Thus, since the prophet did not have the contextual understanding of the verse(as we do today), he did not understand the exact details the verse inculcated, which we are learning daily through science.

Furthermore, the prophet cannot mislead anyone, since no one is to obey the prophet, we are to obey the messenger via the Qur'an. Thus, we don't ever have to worry about the way the prophet understood verses, since we have the same verses and maybe belief in which we also can be guided by The God to our degree of understanding.

Peace

peace

And remain steadfast in the face of their utterances, and disregard them in a nice manner

"Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD and (2) believes in the Hereafter, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord; they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve."

according to God we could not hate them peace

Peace,

According to The God, we should not hate the believers who might call themselves Jews, Christians or Whatever, however these verses have nothing to do with the unbelieving, Jews, Christians, or whatever, since they are not righteous, thus inevitably they will/do cause corruption in the earth.

Therefore, I am more than confident that The God supports the position of a believer hating someone who causes mischeif on earth, be they Jews, Christians, "muslims", or whatever.

Peace

My advice is to stop SUPPORTING falsehood. First, creating a building is not asked of us by the God. All that money could go to feeding the hungry or building homes for homeless people, not so that sunnies have yet another CENTER OF IDOLWORSHIP to compete with the christian and jewish CENTERS OF IDOLWORSHIP.

Peace Idol,

I wholeheartedly agree with you, and I am most confident The God does also.

The fact is, these "muslims" have grossly denied/rejected/ the revelations from The God, to the point of associating partners with HIM, even though they "read" them(for show).

Peace

My best friend is a Jew and he is the nicest man I've seen in my life. I work around Jews and every single time they bring something to the office, they share it with me and tell me that it doen't have pork in it because they don't eat it either. God tells us in the Koran that even if an idol worshipper offers us peace, we should not mock him/her and tell them they are not believers. Then, why such ignorance.

Peace,

Lets get down to the core issue, does your Jewish Freind support the State of Israel/Zionism though political affiliations/donations, Yes or NO?

If yes, then indeed your friend/s has a right to be hated by anyone who understands the concept of Justice(espeically those who feel the brunt of the injustice).

If no, then your friend/s hase a right to defend himself from the blind hatred that is directed at him just because of his race.

Peace

True but there is a difference between a Jew and the Israeli government and its supporters.

Peace,

Well, you must also remember the Israeli Gov, and it's supporters are primarily Jews, hence the difficulty in separating supporters from Non-supporters.

Peace

Peace be upon you Qalone,

I would define Wisdom as "intuition" that comes from gathering knowledge. For example, take one of the concepts of the reading(quran) that you had trouble with. You had to collect all the verses, get definitions, so on and so forth, until the answer just seemed to "pop" in your head. That "pop" is the WISDOM.

That is the best I can do right now, I think that is pretty accurate, but i will reflect on it tonight and see if there is a more clear definition.

One thing for sure, if you REJECT "knowledge", you won't be able to even read this message because it takes knowledge to understand symbols such as letters.

Peace Idolfree,

I have always believed that Wisdom corresponds with understanding the goal and reason for humanity, and since the quran elaborates on these factors of Wisdom, I tend to associate the quran with Wisdom.

With this understanding(Wisdom) we can utilize the knowledge contained in the world and quran/scripture and direct them to the correct path(Islam) and be of those who are considered wise.

In other words, utilize worldly knowledge with "common sense", which in this case, common sense corresponds to the knowledge of Wisdom and Wisdom corresponds to the understanding/philosophy of humanity, which is of course Islam/quran/the God's revelations.

Thats my position with regard to Widom at this point, what do you think?

Peace

Salaam Idol,

Yes, I have already told you that knwldge and wisdom are different, but knowledge is the foundation of wisdom. In THIS world that we live in, we NEED knowledge to get to Wisdom. You seem to be forgetting your portion of "this world". There must be a balance good doctor, we are "individuals" which is an indivisible duality, make sure you are not leaning too far in one direction. The tree that is not firmly rooted in the soil get toppled over by the wind.

Idolfree, How would you define "Wisdom", and what is the difference between Wisdom and knowledge?

035014
If you call on them they shall not hear your call, and even if they could hear they shall not answer you; and none (no worldy knowledge) can inform you like the One Who is Aware.

Please try to comprehend the above ayat; wisdom is what allahu teaches you. what you have learned as knowledge is what men around you taught you - the manifest error-

Salaam Dr. Fazl

If you call on partners/Idols, they shall not hear you, since they are not omniscient and omnipresent(aware), however The God, is Aware and informs you via Quran/scripture.

062.002
It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error(with their knowledge)-

I think it would be a good time to use some worldly knowledge and deduce the fact that Ummy(translated as illiterate by the traditionals for obvious reasons) contextually and literally means Gentile-unlettered in scripture.

2269
He bestows wisdom upon whomever He chooses, and whoever attains wisdom, has attained a great bounty.(hint, hint) Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

Salaam

If HE is your only Protector; and if HE Guides you by opening up His Wsidom on you, what more do you want to accomplish with your limited and long learning process using a dwarf of a knowledge, worldly?

I need an answer to each of the question above, please! There should be people here with God endowed Wisdom, that I am in search of!

Salaam Dr fazl

The fact is Dr, The God's Wisdom is contained in His Scripture, which in itself seems to be a book based on the premise, that one need "wordly knowledge" to read/comprehend IT.

I ask you with all due respect, if you were basically an illiterate, what kind of Wisdom do you think you are capable of attaining, or what Kind of Wisdom can God grant thee?

Salaam

Peace Idolfree,

t is relative, just like being a submitter is relative, or a rejector. You are a messenger ONLY at the time you deliver the TRUTH.

I beg to differ, unless of course, you have Qur'anic proof that being a Messenger of God is a relative state, as there is Qur'anic proof with regard to rejectors and submitters indeed being relative states.

The error is found in your last sentence, the God has given the SAME system since Noah, not a NEW message.

Same System does not equate with same message.

Example The children of Israel received a message from the God which contained more stricter rule regarding diet, than did all humanity with the coming of the Qur'an. Same System, however New Message.

One who spreads a mesage, DELIVERS it to those who do not yet have it, therefore they are a messenger.

Yes I agree, however they are not a Messenger of God, which in whom is sent the original message directly from The God(via Gabriel) then given to humanity.

The messenger of God, is the conduit of heavenly revelation to humanity, once this revelation is acquired by humans through the Messenger of God, it can be spread through a myraid of processes.

Actually Idol, answer this for me, Who would be the messenger of God if someone found a quran buried in their backyard?

So there is no example for you in that verse? I take example from the WHOLE of the message.

The example I received was the example I have written

The God is speaking with regard to the Children of Israel who had repeatedly denied new messengers bringing a new message from The God. Such as the case, when Messenger Isa spoke in regard of a gentile being chosen by God to deliver God's message to the world.

Obeying the "messenger" is the SAME AS obeying the God
Delivering the messengers message is the SAME AS delivering the God's message. Please tell me if there is an error in the above calculation.

Perfect, I couldn't agree with you more. D

You are differntiating between messengers as the God instructs us not to do. The messagers that you are leaving out are the malaika who bring the message down to the prophet, THEN the prophet becomes a messenger and sends the message to others, the others become messengers and contiue to spread the CLEAR message.

I am not differentiating between the messengers of God(ANGELS AND CERTAIN INDIVIDUAL HUMANS), I am differentiating between the messenger of God and me( a human who benefits from Obeying the Messenger via Quran)

Take a look.

1930 Al-Huzaifi Al-Hudaifi

(The infant spoke and) said, 'I am a servant of GOD. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet.

From the looks of it, Jesus first received the book(as a messenger) and then appointed a prophet.

469
And whoever obeys God and the messenger will be among those whom God has blessed from the PROPHETS and the truthful and the martyrs and the upright. What an excellent companionship!

Thus Jesus the Messenger blessed Jesus the prophet with The God's Message

Peace Idolfree,

Why would someone who is "anti-God" print the truth and pass it to others? But if that was the case, then YES, that person is DESCRIBED as the God's messenger. But keep in mind that the second they start spreading "anti-God" messages, they lose that description. It is a relative description, just like submitter and rejecter.

I have come across many sites on the internet that have the message of The God, and with their own analysis which of course correlates to an Anti-The God, position

Why would they not be a messenger of The God anymore, afterall the fact is, they delivered the message, thus whatever is done after that which is contrary to the message does not take away from the fact that your definition still would view them as a messenger of The God, since they propagated the message.

How can being a messenger of The God be a relative position, either you delivered the message or you did not.

I would need to add something to your analogy. Part of the message that was sent by the Ambassador says "You are of the Ambassadors!". So when that person read the message, and found out that they were one of the ambassadors, they concluded that they too must help deliver the message to the people.

Your analogy was faulty on a few differnt levels, but I did the best i could with it.

(2252) These are The God's signs, We read/recite it on (to) you with the truth , and surely YOU are from the messengers
.

Yes, however if we keep with the analogy and add a verse such as 2252 in the President's Message then we can deduce that the Ambassador sent is like other Ambassadors who were sent to deliver the President message in the past.

Where are these books? And if the God sent us ALL, since Noah, the same System, what is the need for different TITLES on these books?

These books are scripture which were sent to a particular nation, the reason for the "titles" are understood when you understand the progress of humanity with regard to God's system.

The Torah= the Law which was sent to the Messenger of God, Moses, for the Jewish people.
The injeel=The Good News sent to the the Messenger of God, Isa, which confirms the Torah and speaks in regard of a New Message coming that will unite the Gentiles and jews.
The Qur'an= "The reading" which was sent to the Messenger of God, Ahmad/Muhammad. Confirms the Torah, the injeel and brings a new message for all of humanity.

The God descends the criterion to whomever is ready to recieve it. This messenger (whoever wrote this book that people call "quran") has come and gone, is the message delivered? Who will deliver the message to your children?

The message had been delivered to humanity by the Messenger of God, and from that point the message is spread by the" book/reading/quran" to those whose hearts are open for it.

(4034) "And Joseph had come to you from before with the evidences, so you are still continuing in doubt/suspicion from what he came to you with it, until when he perished/died, you said 'The God will never/not send from after him a messenger.' like that The God misguides whom He is (a) waster/extravagator , doubtful/suspicious."

Context helps with the above verse, The God is speaking with regard to the Children of Israel who had repeatedly denied new messengers bringing a new message from The God. Such as the case, when Messenger Isa spoke in regard of a gentile being chosen by God to deliver God's message to the world.

One who delivers a message is called a messenger. Why have you made this word to mean more than that?

Because we are discussing the definition of a Messenger of God and not just a messenger.

A messenger of God delivers the message to humanity, which inturn is spread by those who uphold the message, if they choose to spread it, theat does not make them a messenger of God, since they are only a messenger of the messenger of God.

I hope that makes more sense.

This is where we disagree, the one who recieves the information from WITHIN, is a prophet. The prophet becomes a messenger when they start spreading the message that they recieved from within. Whoever else hears themessage and passes it on is also a messenger. Only the one who takes the message and conceals it, or just does not hear the message at all is not a messenger, and that is MOST of humanity

The prophet received the info, from the Messenger of God, thus whoever the prophet spreads the message to only makes him a messenger of the messenger of God and not a messenger of the God, since he received the info from the messenger of the God.

469

And whoever obeys God and the messenger will be among those whom God has blessed from the PROPHETS and the truthful and the martyrs and the upright. What an excellent companionship!

Peace

Peace Idolfree,

Not the printing machine, but whomever programmed it to print what it is printing.

The above statement is problematic, especially when you consider the fact that anybody including a "Satanist" can program a Printer to print The God's message. I am sure you would not consider somebody who is Anti-The God, as a messenger of The God, just because they copied The God's message and showed a couple of his/her friends, would you?

In order to "uphold" the message, you have to follow the message, and part of that message is to bring the argument of the God to the people, that is messengership. Do you agree or disagree that uphoding the message involves delivering the message to your "people"?

Idolfree, lets imagine for a second I am the President of a country and I send an Ambassador to the united Nations with a message from me and in the message I relate that the nations are to Obey Me and the Ambassador whose sole mission is to deliver my message, furthermore for those who support my message I want them to uphold the principles contained therein, which include following the laws I have laid down.

Now, is someone who upholds the message I sent with the Ambassador also an Ambassador or is that someone just obeying the President and Ambassador who had already delivered the initial message?

751619
Do not move your tongue with it to make haste. It is for Us to gather it and relate it. So when We relate it, you shall follow its revelation. Then it is for Us to clarify it.

torah and injeel are not names of different books.

I respectufully disagree, I think anyone who digs to deep into the roots of words will sometimes find himself questioning, questioning.

Lets take a new scientific discovery, like the cure for a certain disease. The one who "discovers" this information has recieved "new" information, and is described as an announcer/bringer of renewed information. Because he is the only one who has the information, he must pass it to others, which is why all prophets are messengers. And anyone who hears this message and continues to spread it is a messenger, not a prophet.

251
Blessed is the One who sent down the Statute Book to His servant, so he can be a warner to the world.

A messenger is Sent DOWN the message from THE GOD to warn/inform the world of the message. Once the Messenger accomplishes his goal of delivering the message to humanity(be it one or a group of individuals), his job is done, since the message was delivered to humanity.

Now that the message has been SENT DOWN is can be spread to all of humanity, however spreading the message does not make one a messenger, since the message was already sent to humanity.

In otherwords, The God's Verabatim Message via Human = Messenger of God, while the message of the messenger of God is delivered to humanity, which inturn, is rejected or upheld, those who uphold the messenger and propagate it to other humans are not messengers of God, since they received the information from humanity, unlike the messenger of The God who had received the message from The God or Gabriel.

Moreover, the one who discovers a new scientific discovery and announces his/her discovery to the world(either to one individual or a group of individuals) has delivered the new message, however those who uphold his/her scientific discovery are not messengers/announcers since the message/announcement has already been delivered to humanity, all they do is propagate it to other humans.

Peace

Salaam Dr.fazl

This means A Truth has to come from Allah which Yahya will not just speak alone, but shall practise what he says before his people such that he will be a Messenger when he spreads the message acrosss through able practise and Yahya shall be a Prophet as he is delivered A Word From Allah, hitherto not given to a people.

drfazl

Actually it means a truth HAS come from Allah before and John has come to confirm that it is from Allah and that it is the truth, or in otherwords, that he believes in it, and witnesses to its truth. To say that John(yahya) is a messenger is in a way adding to God's words, since it is plainly evident that God only labeled Yahya a Prophet.

Further reinforcing this is a Quranic verse which explicitly labels Muhammad as a Messenger and Gentile Prophet and while at the same time reiforces the distinction between Messenger and Prophet.

7158

Say, 'O people, I am GOD's messenger to all of you. To Him belongs the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. There is no god except He. He controls life and death.' Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messenger, and the gentile prophet, who believes in GOD and His words. Follow him, that you may be guided.

Therefore, you shall believe in God and His Messenger and the gentile Prophet WHO BELIEVES IN GOD AND HIS WORDS, in otherwords he(prophet) Obeys God via messenger(obeys messenger).

Salaam

Salaam Dr.

qAlone,

Before saying a thing to the public we must keep in mind the application of it in our life so that our WAY forward to tax-free life in this world and increased belief in the hereafter. Your post carries an idea that you only have a point to make whether it is useful or not.

What is the application of your post to make our lives well established in Allah's Way? Will you clarify how your post strengthens our belief that we free ourselves from shirk ?
Quran reading is useless unless we decisively stick to righteousness in our lives, atleast to an extent possible. Based on such status Allah Guides, insuch a way that we do not transgress after receiving His Mercy
.

The ramifications of understanding the difference between messenger and prophet are enomorous.

First, it explains the reason Allah commands the believers to Obey the messenger and never the prophet. The messenger explicitly delivers Allah's message, hence the importance in obeying the Messenger, while on the otherhand, the prophet upholds the message sent through the messenger. Upholding the message is based on human interpretation/understanding, even with regards to the prophet as is evident by the Qur'anic verses which explicitly point out the mistakes he had made through his interpretation(661-2).

Reinforcing this is a Qur'anic verse,

469

And whoever obeys God and the messenger will be among those whom God has blessed from the PROPHETS and the truthful and the martyrs and the upright. What an excellent companionship!

Notice the prophets are among those who Obey the Messenger, thus the prophet Muhammad had obeyed Muhammad the Messenger, since the messenger delivered the message to humanity and humanity includes the prophet/s.

Secondly, the importance of this fact will undoubtedly help in the cause of tearing away the beliefs of the "traditionals" who assume that we are to obey the Prophet, via hadiths and so on...Once the fact is established that we are not to obey the prophet, since the prophet Obeys the messenger, the easier their beliefs will come crashing down.

I hope this helps in explaining why I find this topic most interesting for believers.

Peace

Salaam Idolfree,

I respectufully disagree with your analysis with regard to Prophets, since "spreading" and "delivering" The God's message are quite different concepts.

A printing machine spreads The God's Message, would you also qualify a printer as a messenger of God, afterall it is spreading The Gods Message

A prophet is one who recieves renewed information, there is only one message, and it has been the same for all. When someone "discovers" this information, that is inspiration, and they are described as "nabiyeen" or prophets.

As I have already shown you through the Quranic verse, John did not receive renewed information, he came to uphold information that was already sent through other messengers. Further the messages are not the same, even though they have the same effect for those who Obey them (Submission to God's will/Pure Monotheism). The Torah, Gospel, and Qur'an contain different messages, afterall the Torah does not speak of Jesus's mission(injeel).

Moreover you must clarify what you mean by, "When someone "discovers" this information, that is inspiration, and they are described as "nabiyeen" or prophets".

Peace

Delivering The God's message entails repeating God's Word Verabatim. while spreading The God's message entails

Salaam everyone,

There are some who like to believe that a prophet is someone who receives "New Scripture", however the fact is... a Prophet is someone who upholds scripture already sent.

In otherwords, the Quranic fact is...Some Messengers are Prophets and some Prophets are also Messengers. thus not all Prophets are Messengers as most people believe.

339

And the angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary Allah giveth thee glad tidings of (a son whose name is) John, (who cometh) to confirm a word from Allah lordly, chaste, a prophet of the righteous.

Notice, John was sent to confirm a word from Allah, thus he was sent to confirm a scripture already present, thus he was not bringing a new message, therefore he was not a messenger, since he did not bring a revelation. However, John was a righteous prophet.

1912

'O John, you shall uphold the scripture, strongly.' We endowed him with wisdom, even in his youth.

The prophet upheld the scripture he came to confirm, which in the case of John was more than likely the Torah.

Therefore, the title of prophet is given to one who God appoints to uphold the scripture, In the case of Muhammad, He was given new scripture(Qur'an) as a messenger and then was appointed a prophet, thus upholding the scripture which hw was sent.

Salaam Brothers and Sisters,

I would like to add my two cents worth regarding the Subject of Messenger and Prophet.

My position is that Some Messengers can be appointed Prophets, thus All Prophets are not messengers.

The Qur'an affirms the fact that the messenger's duty was only to deliver the message to mankind. The Qur'an also affirms the fact that the messenger recited the words he heard spoken to him, verbatim.
Therefore we are able to conclude from the above facts that the messenger delivered God's word directly to mankind.

If the Messenger delivered God's Word to mankind, we must also assume that the messenger brought God's word to the Man, Muhammad, since Muhammad is considered part of the human race. Of course this make logical sense, especially considering the fact that the messenger delivered the message verbatim, thus not having time to understand the message he was delivering. Thus, the messenger delivered the message to Muhammad and all the other believers.

Now, the interesting fact is in understanding the term Prophet. A prophet is a believer of the message delivered. The Qur'an affirms the fact that the prophets duty was to Judge by what God had delivered(through the messenger). The Prophet is also one who is appointed the leader of the believers by God to guide his and only his generation under the banner of Islam.

Here is some Qur'anic proof that backs the above view.

469 Qur'an

And whoever obeys God and the messenger will be among those whom God has blessed from the PROPHETS and the truthful and the martyrs and the upright. What an excellent companionship!

MYcase has been affirmed by Allah in verse 469. Those who obey Allah and the Messenger are those who are blessed, thus the Prophets(Muhammad) obey God and the Messenger as do the truthful and Martyrs, therefore they are the ones who are blessed.
In other words,Prophet Muhammad obeyed God and the Messenger(message) . Thus he obeyed the message that God spoke through him as the Messenger, thus obeying himself which inturn made him Obey Allah.

The distinction has been made. Muhammad was a Messenger and a Prophet who had Obeyed the Messenger(message).

There is much more Qur'anic proof, but the time I have at this moment is limited, thus the short summary.

Salaam