Wakas, peace

2196 proves "al masjid al haram" is delimited.

2144, 2149-150 ---> AMAH to be made goal/target wherever you are so not delimited
2144 and 2149 ----> AMAH is the truth from your Lord so not delimited
2148 --------------> AMAH implied to fall under good deeds so not delimited

Let's assume you are right about 2196

Even then AMAH is still "the inviolable institution of acknowledgment for a certain time period" and not inviolable time of acknowledgment.

The inviolable time of acknowledgment would be the four al-ashhur al-haram.

The inviolable institution of acknowledgment will be "inviolable" only for 4 al-ashhur al-haram and then maybe it will not be inviolable (doubt it though per 2144-150), but still remains institution of acknowledgment and not time of acknowledgment.

Grammatical problems also. Masjid does not indicate "time" but the al-haram part might indicate a time period because of al-ashhur al-haram. So according to your interpretation it would be "the masjid/institution of sujud which is inviolable for a certain time period" and not "inviolable time of sujud".

Hello Mushu, others, Salaam

With the use of logic and reason we should be able to zero in on the correct interpretation of these quranic concepts insha allah.

Now that we have Mushu on this with his matter of fact no-nonsense razor sharp logical approach, we should see rapid progress )

My humble thoughts which differ slightly from the others

Abraham raised the foundations FROM al-bait, proving it is not a physical building but an institution based on al-quran.

Al-bait al-haram inviolable HOUSE (institution) similar to HOUSE of Representatives based on al-quran and incorporating al-quran ---> guidance for mankind

Al-masjid al-haram inviolable INSTITUTION (not time) OF ACKNOWLEDGMENT similar to Senate; based on al-quran since it is "the truth from our Lord".

No one can stop ANYONE from entering or getting near a time period.

People can however be stopped from becoming part of an institution.

Al-bait al-haram and al-masjid al-haram have distribution of powers for checks and balances similar to Senate and House of Representatives (USA). Both are institutions; one is inviolable house the other inviolable institution of acknowledgment both based on al-quran.

Al-bait can be in one location (central) and al-masjid al-haram WHEREVER we are, in every city etc. The location of al-bait can change in different times. There can be more than one al-bait at the same time also based on al-quran but it doesn't have to be wherever we are. For example there could be one in every continent or every country.

Hajj FESTIVAL/FEAST similar to the hagg sukkot; involves sacrifice of animals and feeding the poor and needy and celebrating the harvest (benefits to mankind from God).

God knows human psychology more than anyone. Use festival/feast to attract people to al-bait so people can witness the benefits of an institution based on al-quran and the benefits from the harvest.

Bait them to al-bait ) .... couldn't resist the inter lingual word play

People are invited WITH hajj/festival/feast to al-bait

Eager to see how my interpretation stands up to the razor sharp sword/logic of Mushu &

Hello readers, peace

This is in response to the challenge issued by the body/mind/soul complex who addresses self as "Isa".

That person wanted to know if anyone here has a connection to the messenger by virtue of being his descendant.

Not a single descendent of the Prophet is from your ranks. Think on that. Not a single one.

Even though it is completely irrelevant for our guidance, I want to make a public statement because of the challenge being issued

I am a muslim who tries his best to serve God alone. I am not a quranite or quran only because His signs are all around us in the horizons and ourselves in addition to the quran.

I am the descendent of prophet Muhammad through his grandson Hussain. I have a certified geneology proving it showing the whole chain of my forefathers all the way to Hussain. (Of course this is unverifiable hearsay/hadeeth similar to the hadeeth recorded by Bokhari)

If the criterion of following and obeying the messenger is solely to believe/trust someone who has a "connection" to Muhammad by virtue of being his descendant, then O "Isa", I hereby command you to follow what I said in my above post so that you can follow and obey the messenger jedi

For God alone muslims, of course this is completely irrelevant and fallacious, and a moot point )

Peace mmkhan, other readers,

Please read the following post

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601994.msg271827#msg271827

Peace readers,

Yes we have been asked to follow and obey the messenger in the quran.

When we follow another person like our fathers/families, friends, peers, imams etc we are following and obeying them not the messenger.

Anyone who follows another contemporary person and then says he/she is following and obeying the messenger is A LIAR

How do you know the messenger did or say exactly what the contemporary person is doing or saying?

The best/ideal way to follow and obey the messenger is by following and obeying him directly when he is our contemporary and alive. That is not possible nowadays because he is dead.

The second best way to follow and obey the messenger is by following and obeying the authentic message brought by him which in case of Muhammad is the quran.

That is the best way to follow and obey him nowadays when he is not contemporary/alive anymore.

Anyone who follows and obeys the hadeeth written 200 years after Muhammad by Bokhari and others and attributed to Muhammad, is not following and obeying the messenger but following and obeying Bokhari and others, because whatever they attribute to him is unverifiable hearsay.

Bokhari and others did not have the power to go to the graves of all the dead people in the chain of hadeeth narrators and bring them to life and verify if they actually said what was claimed.

Anyone who follows the so called "sunnah" transmitted from generation to generation supposedly, is not following and obeying the messenger but following and obeying his/her forefathers and contemporaries.

So how can we follow and obey the messenger now that he is dead?

The only way is to follow and obey his authentic hadeeth and follow his authentic "uswa"/example.

Where can we find this authentic hadeeth and this authentic uswa/example of Muhammad?

The only place obviously is the quran.

The quran is the authentic hadeeth of the messenger. It calls itself hadeeth. It is the hadeeth of the messenger because it is the "qawl" of the messenger. By following and obeying the quran we are following and obeying the messenger.

6940 This is the qawl/utterance of an honorable messenger.

The quran contains the authentic uswa/example of the messenger. By following the authentic uswa/example of the messenger contained in the quran we are following and obeying the messenger.

The "wahy"/inspiration other than the quran which was inspired to the messenger is impossible to be followed by us because it is not 100% preserved.

We do not even need to follow that "wahy"/inspiration to the messenger other than the quran because the quran says it is fully detailed and contains clarification of all things. Therefore it contains ALL the hadeeth of the messenger and ALL the uswa/example of the messenger necessary and relevant for our guidance, and to follow and obey the messenger.

In other words the quran is ENOUGH in order to follow and obey the messenger.

We are asked to follow the best of what was sent down from the god which is only the quran. The best hadeeth can only be one.

An author can write one main book and nine other smaller books. Then if the author says that the one main book contains all details and explanation of everything he/she wanted to communicate then there is no need to read or follow the other nine smaller books because they will be redundant and superfluous.

It is a logical fallacy to say that one has to follow ALL inspiration to the messenger when the main collection of inspirations to the messenger i.e. the quran itself says it is fully detailed, contains clarification of all things, is the best hadeeth, and is enough.

2951 Is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Book that is being recited to them? In that is a mercy and a reminder for people who believe.

Anyone who does not accept the ayaat of the god is a REJECTOR AND LIAR

3923 God has sent down the best hadeeth, a Book that is fully consistent within itself, repeating. The skins of those who are concerned towards their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is the guidance of God; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whoever God misguides, then none can guide him.

3955 And follow the best of what has been sent down to you from your Lord, before the retribution comes to you suddenly when you least expect it.

6155 And this is a Book that We have sent down which is blessed, so follow it and be aware, that you may receive mercy

2849 Say Then bring forth a book from God that is better than them in guidance so I may follow it, if you are truthful.

Dear readers, peace

I respectfully disagree with all the explanations put forth by the esteemed forum members to abdullah's point.

I will try to explain my understanding, and the god knows best.

THE BOOK in the quran can have different meanings depending on the context. It can be referring to the quran, or the master book containing record of everything, or the book containing a record of our deeds which is part of the master book.

What does "The Book" in 4070 refer to?

Those who deny the Book (al-kitaab), and what We have sent Our messengers (plural) with. Therefore, they will come to know. (4070)

The context is clearly the Last Day (4071-77)

"The Book" in 4070 cannot be the quran because of the contradiction it causes as per abdullah.

"what we have sent our messengers with" in the same sign cannot be the signs in the horizons and within ourselves because those signs were not sent with the messengers

"what we have sent our messengers with" cannot be only the quran because of the word "messengers" plural.

"what we have sent our messengers with" cannot be the hadeeth of the messengers because then we will need the authentic hadeeth of ALL messengers for our salvation not just of Muhammad.

Careful consideration of the quran reveals that "The Book" in 4070 can only refer to THE BOOK in which our deeds are being recorded which is a part of the master record in which everything is recorded. This understanding is solidified by the context of 4070 which is the Last Day.

Please ponder on the following signs

Who is more wicked than he who invents lies about God, or denies His revelations? These will receive their recompense from The Book (al-kitaab); so that when Our messengers come to terminate their lives, they will say Where are those whom you used to call on besides God? They said They have abandoned us! And they bore witness upon themselves that they were rejecters. (737)

Context is the Last Day just like 4070

And if We let the people taste a mercy after some harm had afflicted them, they take to scheming against Our revelations! Say God is faster in scheming; Our messengers record (yaktaboon) what you scheme. (1021)

They record where? In THE BOOK obviously

And The Book (al-kitaab) was displayed, so you see the criminals fearful of what is in it. And they say Woe to us! What is with this record that it does not leave out anything small or large but has counted it. And they found what they had done present. And your Lord does not wrong anyone. (1849)

Same context of The Last Day

No, We will record (sanuktab) what he says, and We will increase for him the retribution significantly. (1979)

We will record where? In THE BOOK obviously

So whoever does good works and he is a believer, then his efforts will not be rejected and We will record it (kaatiboon) for him. (2194)

We will record where? In THE BOOK obviously

This is Our record (kitaabana); it utters the truth about you. We have been recording everything you did. (4529)

Similarly 6919, 837, 8318 refers to the same book.

This is THE BOOK that we cannot deny per 4070.

As to "what we have sent our messengers with" in 4070, it refers to all the books that were sent with the messengers (plural), including the quran. Unfortunately the only authentic remaining out of them now is the quran.

The mistakes in this post are all mine. Only the god knows the complete truth.

@ Ayisha

Peace on you sister,

Thanks for the kind words. I merely quoted from the best hadith and tried to bring it to the attention of the readers. All excellence belongs to the god almighty; I am just a string vibrating at his command.

You are indeed one of those who stand in awe of the god as per 3923

God has sent down the best hadith, a Book fully consistent within itself, repeating each statement in manifold forms. The skins of those who stand in awe of their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is the guidance of God; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whoever God misguides, then none can guide him. (3923)

May the god bless you and reward you for your efforts.

First of all I would like to clarify that my posts are addressed to all readers of this thread and I am not trying to engage anyone in a debate. I can only draw attention to the god's words. I cannot guide anyone. Only the god guides whom he wills and misguides whom he wills.

Then you are not a true believer, because the true believers are those who believe in the ENTIRE Quraan, they don't accept part of it and reject other part of it

We believe in it, all of it is from our Lord

But you fall in the category, regarding whom Allaah says

Is it a part of the Book you believe in, and you disbelieve in a part?

I believe in all the signs of the god including the ENTIRE ORIGINAL quran. The current written quran has many man made additions to it for example the names of the chapters, the verse stops, and diacritical marks and there are discrepancies in some words and letters among the 10 versions of the written quran in existence. I do not believe in any of the man made stuff. The original message however is 100 % preserved as promised by the god. The original message can easily be figured out by using mind and reason, the discrepancy/contradiction principle, cross referencing the signs, and comparing with the signs in the horizons and within ourselves until the truth is discerned per 4153

For more details please see http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/WhichQuran.pdf

Then logically, you must accept this fact that true believers are commanded not only to follow the Quraan, but to follow ALL Revelation from Allaah to His Messenger, as Allaah says

Those who follow the Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet whom they found written about in the Torah and the Gospel, He commands them the Good, and forbids them the evil, and allows them the Pure things, and forbids them the impure, and he releases them from their heavy burdens, and from the fetters that were upon them. So those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the Light which has been sent down with him, it is they who will be successful.

The sign maseehullah quotes asks us to follow THE LIGHT sent down with the messenger and not ALL revelation from the god. THE LIGHT refers to something very specific which was sent down to the messenger and does not refer to ALL revelation from the god.

Let us see what the god sent down to the messenger

We have sent it down an Arabic Quran, perhaps you will comprehend. (122)

And it was such that We sent it down an Arabic Quran, and We dispatched in it the warnings, perhaps they will become aware or it will cause them to remember. (20113)

We have sent down to you the Quran in stages. (7623)

Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt. (6114 and numerous other signs mentioning the book sent down)

ALR, a Book which We have sent down to you so that you may bring the people out of the darkness and into the light with the permission of their Lord, to the path of the Noble, the Praiseworthy. (141)

These signs make it clear that THE LIGHT sent down to the messenger is THE QURAAN which is also referred to as THE BOOK so that the messenger can bring people out of the darkness and into the light with the god's permission.

Hence maseehullah's claim of the "fact" that true believers are commanded not only to follow the Quraan, but to follow ALL revelation from the god to his messenger is unevidenced by 7157 because as shown above, THE LIGHT refers to THE QURAAN and not to ALL revelation when cross referenced with other signs in the quraan.

The Best of that which Allaah has sent down to the Prophet is indeed the Holy Quraan. No doubt about it.

Yet this same verse you quoted is another proof that that Allaah has sent down other revelation besides this Quraan, i.e. the Hadith Qudsi for example.

Sure but the god asks us to follow THE BEST of that which he sent down to the messenger and he clearly tells us that THE BEST is THE QURAAN.

THE BEST can only be one, not all.

The point is, Allaah has commanded us in numerous verses in the Quraan to follow everything which has been revealed to the Messenger of Allaah .

That would contradict with 3955 in which the god wants us to follow THE BEST and not everything revealed to the messenger.

THE BEST can only be one, not all.

Yes, Allaah commands us to follow the best of that which has been sent down to him by his Lord, yet He never says that you will follow that exclusively, meaning, to the exclusion to all other revelation.

THE BEST contains ALL DETAILS and DETAILS OF EVERYTHING relevant to our guidance so following THE BEST would be ENOUGH as I have already shown from the quraan. Everything else would be redundant.

When an author says that a particular book is his best book and contains details of everything/all details then even if he has written 100 more books, that one best book would be enough to follow.

So the logical fallacy on your part is to take something which is general command and turn it into an exclusive command.

If Allaah said to follow nothing but the Quraan, or follow nothing but the best of that which He sent down, you would be right, but when He said to follow the best of that which is sent down to the Prophet , it was not an exclusive command to follow only that.

It is not a general command because THE BEST was clearly defined as THE QURAAN, making it an exclusive command. THE BEST can only be one, not all. Read the relevant signs again

And follow THE BEST of what has been sent down to you from your Lord, before the retribution comes to you suddenly when you least expect it. (3955)

God has sent down THE BEST HADITH, a Book fully consistent within itself, repeating each statement in manifold forms. The skins of those who are concerned towards their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is the guidance of God; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whoever God misguides, then none can guide him. (3923)

THE BEST can only be one, not all.

Readers are encouraged to pay attention to the last part of 3923. No one can guide whom the god misguides, even though his signs are so clear!

Once again you repeat the same logical fallacy, which is turning something general into exclusive.

"That you may warn WITH IT" is an exclusive command referring to the quraan exclusively.

Say Which is the greatest testimony? Say God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whoever it reaches, that you are bearing witness that with God are other gods! Say I do not bear witness! Say He is only One god, and I am innocent of what you have set up! (619)

And thus We have inspired to you an Arabic Quran, so that you may warn the capital town and all around it, and to warn about the Day of Gathering that is inevitable. A group will be in the Paradise, and a group in Hell. (427)

The Quraan is general and requires further explanation, that is why Allaah said that the duty of the Messenger is to explain the Reminder which is sent down

With proofs and scriptures. And We sent down to you the Reminder to reveal/proclaim (litubayyina) to the people what was sent to them, and perhaps they will think. (1644)

Sectarians say that the word "litubayyina" in this sign means "to explain clearly", and thus Muhammad the messenger of the god explained the signs of the quraan and those explanations can be found only in the "hadith" attributed to him by others.

Sectarians have misinterpreted this word "litubayyina" in these verses. People who establish hadith and sunnah as another source of religious teachings besides the quraan, opted for the irrelevant meaning of the Arabic word "BYN" in these verses.

The word "'lituBaYyiNa" is a derivative of "BYN", which is a multiple-meaning word. It means

1. To reveal what is concealed.
2. To explain what is vague.

The first meaning is the antonym of "hide (katama)", the second is the antonym of "make vague". The god orders Muhammad to proclaim the revelation which is revealed to him personally. Indeed, this is the whole mission of the messengers (1635). Prophets sometimes experience difficulty in proclaiming the revelation (3337, 2025-2. The verse 7519 does not leave any room for an extra human explanation.

So when We relate it, you shall follow its revelation.
Then it is for Us to explain it (bayanahu). (7518-19)

And for every example they come to you with, We bring you the truth and the best explanation (tafseeran). (2533)

Thus, the word "litubayyina" of 1644 is similar to the one in 3187. Verse 3187 tells us that the people who received the revelation should "reveal/proclaim the scripture to the people, and never conceal it (la taktumoonahu)."

3187 And God took the covenant of those who were given the Book You will reveal/proclaim it (latubayyinunnahu) to the people and not conceal it (la taktumoonahu). But they placed it behind their backs and purchased with it a cheap price. Miserable indeed is what they have purchased.

Readers can clearly see that "latubayyinunnahu" has been used in contrast with "taktumoonahu", so it can only mean "reveal/proclaim" as opposed to "hide/conceal"

The Quraan also commands us to take whatever the Messenger allows us, and abstain from whatever he forbids.

This is a good example of maseehullah hiding part of the sign and revealing only a part to misguide others by taking things out of context

Your god is One god. Those who do not believe in the Hereafter, their hearts are denying, and they are arrogant. Certainly, God knows what they hide and what they reveal. He does not like the arrogant. (1622-23)

The translation of the complete sign is as follows

Whatever God bestowed upon His messenger from the people of the towns, then it shall be to God and His messenger, and the relatives, and the orphans, and the poor, and the wayfarer. Thus, it will not remain monopolized by the rich among you. And you may take what the messenger gives you, but do not take what he prohibits you from taking. And be aware of God, for God is mighty in retribution. (597)

According to the context and the complete sign, "you may take what the messenger gives you, but do not take what he prohibits you from taking" refers to "whatever God bestowed upon His messenger from the people of the towns" i.e. the spoils, and not to the god's revelations or guidance.

They seek to deceive God and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves without noticing. (29)

In another thread I gave a perfect example of this principle and why it is necessary. In the Quraan, Allaah says He has only forbidden four things to eat 1) dead meat, 2) blood, 3) pork, 4) any meat upon which other than Allaah's Name has been pronounced Therefore, for those who follow only the Quraan as guidance, all other meat is permissible, including dog meat, cat meat, snake meat, eagle, hawk, etc.

Yet we know for a fact that these animals and their meat is just as impure as the pig, and that is why we know from the Hadeeth that the Messenger of Allaah prohibited the eating of any animal that has fangs, and any bird that has talons.

But you as a "Quraan-only" follower will have no problem eating the impure meat of dogs, cats, snakes, and eagles. You claim to follow the way of Abraham, but actually you are following the way of pagans, chinese, etc., who eat these impure meat. Even in the Torah, these impure meats are forbidden.

Maseehullah would rather believe a hadith falsely attributed to Muhammad the messenger and lie about the messenger than trust/believe the god's words in the quraan. The god's clear signs forbid ONLY the four categories of food mentioned; then after that did the messenger dare to add to the god's fully detailed words detailing everything relevant to prohibited foods? Did he dare attribute something falsely to the god? Did he dare make something unlawful that the god had made lawful? Had he actually done so, he would have immediately been killed by the god

And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
We would have seized him by the right.
Then, We would have severed his life-line.
None of you would be able to prevent it. (6944-47)

Say I do not find in what is inspired to me to be unlawful for any eater to eat except that it be already dead, or running blood, or the meat of pig - for it is foul - or what is a wickedness, dedicated to other than God. But whoever is forced to, without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful. (6145)

In 6145 Muhammad himself is telling us the ONLY forbidden categories of food IN WHAT WAS INSPIRED TO HIM. This includes ALL inspiration to Muhammad from the god. So he was NEVER prohibited any other category of food. Then attributing false hadith to him claiming he also forbade other categories in addition to those mentioned in the quraan would be completely blasphemous, inventing lies about the god and his messenger, making unlawful that which has been made lawful, and disbelieving/rejecting the god's clear signs

O you who believe, do not make unlawful the good things that God has made lawful to you, and do not aggress; God does not love the aggressors. (587)

As far as the Jews are concerned, following are the extra food categories that were forbidden to them

And for those who are Jewish We have made unlawful all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We made unlawful their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful. (6146)

This was as a punishment and with the revelation of the quraan those categories of food were made lawful again as evidenced by the word ONLY in the signs detailing the forbidden foods

He has ONLY made unlawful for you that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated with to other than God. But whoever is forced to, without seeking disobedience or transgression, then there is no sin upon him. God is Forgiving, Merciful. (2173)

He has ONLY forbidden for you what is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was sacrificed to any other than God. But whoever is forced to, without seeking disobedience or transgression, then God is Forgiver, Merciful.

And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe This is lawful, and that is forbidden; that you seek to invent lies about God. Those who invent lies about God will not succeed.

A small enjoyment, and they will have a painful retribution.

And for those who are Jewish, We forbade what We told to you before. And We did not wrong them, but they were wronging themselves. (16115-11

It appears that maseehullah is the one who believes in only a part of the book and disbelieves/rejects a part of it

Do you believe in part of the Book and disbelieve in part? The punishment for those among you who do so is humiliation in this worldly life, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be delivered to the most severe retribution. God is not unaware of what you all do. (285)

So yes, the Quraan is indeed fully detailed...NOT because it contains all the instructions and regulations for our guidance...but because it tells us to obey the Messenger and to take whatever he allows us, and abstain from whatever he forbids us.

The Quraan is not fully detailed in the way you think, otherwise why would Allaah not mention in the Quraan that dog meat, cat meat, snake meat, etc., is forbidden, and why in the Quraan would He tell us to take everything the Messenger allows, and abstain from everything He forbids?

The god clearly tells us that the quraan is a guidance for the people, the believers, and the righteous (22, 2185, 179, 4144). Then the god tells us that the quraan is fully detailed and contains details of all things (6114-115, 12111, 1689). Therefore the quraan is fully detailed and contains details of all things relevant to our guidance.

After this saying that the quraan is not fully detailed and does not contain details of all things relevant to our guidance would be rejecting/disbelieving/disobeying the god and thinking that the god forgot something out of his fully detailed book. Obviously, to such a person the god's words can never be enough

Is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Book that is being recited to them? In that is a mercy and a reminder for people who believe. (2951)

What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
Or do you have a book which you study?
In it, you can find what you wish? (6836-3

He said The knowledge of it is with my Lord, in a record. My Lord does not err or forget. (2052)

The quraan is THE BEST HADITH and contains details of all things relevant to our guidance. By definition the best can only be one. Following this BEST of what has been sent down to the messenger containing ALL details relevant to our guidance is ENOUGH to obey and follow the messenger of the god.

Muhammad the messenger of the god was also asked to follow the creed of Abraham as shown in my previous post. Since we are supposed to follow Muhammad the messenger, and he was directly asked to follow the creed of Abraham, then in order to follow Muhammad the messenger of the god we also need the sabeel/hadith/sunnah of Abraham.

Where can we find the true 100% authentic sabeel/hadith/sunnah of Abraham so that we can follow Muhammad the messenger of the god?

Peace on you

If you think it's a waste of time, feel free to ignore my posts. But anyone who is interested in a purely academic discussion from the Quraan based on logic will definitely be invited to discuss with me. If you want to resort to emotions and stereotypes, you may do so, but you will only further expose how so called "Quraanists" are the most ignorant people about the Quraan.

I find the posts by maseehullah amusing because he mentions logic and he mentions ignorance and then demonstrates lack of logic and ignorance not only about what the quraan says but ignorance about logical fallacies as well.

His basic argument that he put forth in defense of his entire straw structure is based on a logical fallacy!

Had he not been ignorant about the quraan and logical fallacies and had he not been illogical he would have seen the truth easily that his position and basic argument is completely refuted from the quraan and from logic and is untenable.

Firstly I would like to tell the readers briefly about myself so they are clear as to what my basic views are.

I am NOT a quraanist
I am NOT a quraan aloner
I am NOT a "Muslim" (sectarian capital M)
I am NOT a Jew or Christian or Hindu or Buddhist or any of the man made concoctions
I am NOT an atheist
I am NOT an agnostic about existence of the god
I am NOT a code 19er

I AM a monotheist (haneef)
I try my best to be among the peaceful (muslim)
I believe in God alone and have NO DOUBT whatsoever about existence of ONE GOD who has no partners
I consider myself at the position of being able to say the following per 318

Ashhadu an la ilaha illallah
I bear witness that there is no god but the God

I do believe that majority of the quraan is from that one God (almost 99.99% of it)
Currently I am in doubt about a few vowels and words and verses in the currently existing written quraan being from the one God (I am not talking about 9128-129). I do believe that the message relevant to our guidance from the god is 100 % preserved and can be found in the currently existing written quraan.

I believe in ALL signs (ayaat) of the God and that they are not limited to the quraan alone as per the quraan itself

We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things? 4153

I do believe that there were revelations outside the quraan to Muhammad the messenger and the khaatam of the prophets, as implied in the quraan itself (2143, 2187, 3123-126, 87, 3337, 4815, 663)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9653.msg63522#msg63522

My methodology is based on using logic and reasoning, consistency of signs, and knowledge/verification

It is such that We detail the revelations for a people who think. (see 1024)
It is such that We detail the revelations for a people who have sense/who use their reason. (see 302

Do they not reflect on the Quran? If it was from any other than God they would have found in it many a discrepancy. (482)

And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and heart, all these you are responsible for. (1736)

In fact using the principle of 482 I think I might have found a few vowels/words/verses that might not be part of the written version of the quraan nowadays, because the original quraan revealed by the god did not have contradictions/discrepancies but that is a topic in itself and I will start another thread on it later god willing. Once again I am not a code 19er and I am not talking about 9128-129 which I do believe are part of the original quraan. Code 19 has no basis in the quraan and is nothing but a fitna/temptation for the disbelievers.

Using the above methodology we can ascertain with absolute certainty what is a sign of the god and what is not; what was inspired by the god and what was not; and what we can follow and what we cannot.

Having said all this, now I am going to point out the logical fallacy in maseehullah's basic argument which has mislead not only him but countless others.

First he states that we are also supposed to follow Muhammad the messenger of the god as per the quraan

Say If you love God then follow me so God will love you and forgive your sins. God is Forgiver, Merciful. (331)

Say This is my way, I invite to God in full disclosure, myself and whoever follows me. And glory be to God; and I am not of the polytheists. (1210

AGREED ) We have to follow the sabeel of Muhammad the messenger of the god

Then he says that Muhammad the messenger of the god only follows inspiration from the god.

AGREED ) 650, 7203, 1015, 10109, 332, 469

Then he says that it does not state in the quraan that it is the only inspiration of the god to His messenger Muhammad. This implies there must have been inspiration to Muhammad other than the quraan

AGREED ) as I stated above the quraan does imply there was revelation outside the quraan to Muhammad the messenger of the god

Then he says because we have to follow Muhammad the messenger of the god per the quraan, this means there is something other than the quraan which was inspired to him that we also have to follow in addition to the quraan.

This is where he makes a logical fallacy and demonstrates ignorance of the quraanic signs hence I have to disagree

I will now present 3 proofs from the quraan which prove that his argument is flawed and his position is untenable.

Firstly,

It is clear that Muhammad the messenger of the god says according to the quraan that he follows only that which is inspired to him from the god. Let us see what the quraan says relevant to this, as to what Muhammad the messenger himself is asked to follow

Then We inspired to you You shall follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of the polytheists. (16123)

Say God bears truth. Follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of the polytheists. (395)

And who is better in the system than the one who submits himself to God, and he is a good doer, and he follows the creed of Abraham in monotheism? And God took Abraham as a friend. (4125)

Ok, we have to follow Muhammad the messenger of the god, and he is directly being asked to follow the creed of Abraham the messenger of the god, so logically, in order to follow Muhammad we have to follow the creed of Abraham, and for that we need to know the sabeel/sunnah/hadith of Abraham.

Where can we find this 100% authentic sabeel/sunnah/hadith/creed of Abraham the messenger of the god? other than mentioned in the quraan?

Secondly,

Let's see what the god wants us to follow out of his revelations

And follow the best of what has been sent down to you from your Lord, before the retribution comes to you suddenly when you least expect it. (3955)

What is the best of what has been sent down from Him?

God has sent down THE BEST HADITH, a Book fully consistent within itself, repeating each statement in manifold forms. The skins of those who are concerned towards their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is the guidance of God; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whoever God misguides, then none can guide him. (3923)

We tell to you THE BEST stories through what We have inspired to you in this Quran; and before it you were of those who were unaware. (123)

The best can only be one.

So we have to follow Muhammad, and he is asked to follow THE BEST of what has been sent down to him from the god, and the best has been defined as the Book sent down to him which can only be the quraan.

Say Which is the greatest testimony? Say God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whoever it reaches, that you are bearing witness that with God are other gods! Say I do not bear witness! Say He is only One god, and I am innocent of what you have set up! (619)

This sign proves that Muhammad the messenger of the god wanted us to follow only the quraan because of the wording "that I may warn you WITH IT". He doesn't say "that I may warn you with it and my hadith and sunna". So even though there had been other inspirations to him he warned the people only with the quraan so in order to follow him it is enough to follow the quraan only.

And thus We have inspired to you an Arabic Quran, so that you may warn the capital town and all around it, and to warn about the Day of Gathering that is inevitable. A group will be in the Paradise, and a group in Hell. (427)

Again Muhammad the messenger of the god is being asked to warn with the quraan only.

Thirdly,

The logical fallacy )

Just because Muhammad the messenger of the god was inspired other than the quraan in addition to the quraan DOES NOT mean that we have to or need to follow the inspirations other than the quraan, IF the quraan is complete and fully detailed and has the details of everything relevant to our guidance.

If the quraan is fully detailed and contains the details of everything relevant to our guidance, then following the quraan would be ENOUGH, and we don't need to follow the other inspirations outside the quraan.

Let me illustrate with an example

A person can have authored 10 books and states that one of his 10 books contains all details and everything he authored. In that case the other 9 books would be SUBSETS of that one book and reading his one book which contains details of everything he wrote would be ENOUGH. There will be no need to read the other 9 books because the information contained in those 9 books will already be in the tenth complete book.

Now if it can be proved from the quraan that quraan has the details of EVERYTHING relevant to our guidance and it is fully detailed and complete, then following the quraan would be ENOUGH and there will be no need to follow the other inspirations outside the quraan because the message of the other inspirations would already be included in the quraan.

Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt. And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower. (6114-115)

In their stories is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. It is not a HADITH that has been invented, but an authentication of what is between his hands and a detailing of all things, and a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe. (12111)

And We have sent down to you the Book as a clarification for all things, and a guidance and a mercy and good tidings to those who have submitted. (see 1689)

Is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Book that is being recited to them? In that is a mercy and a reminder for people who believe.

Any hadith atttributed to the messenger which contradicts the quraan can be immediately rejected.
Any hadith attributed to the messenger that adds to the quraan can immediately be rejected because the quraan is fully detailed, contains details of ALL things and clarifies ALL things.
Any hadith attributed to the messenger that says something that is already mentioned in the quraan is redundant.

The quraan itself is the hadith of the messenger because it is the utterance of the messenger

This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.
It is not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed.
A revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
We would have seized him by the right.
Then, We would have severed his life-line.
None of you would be able to prevent it. (6940-47)

It is the BEST HADITH and following this best hadeeth is ENOUGH to follow the messenger.