Please send me the E-Book on the e-mail mentioned in the PM to you.. thanks

Salaam Aisha,

I have read a lot of Sitchin's work on the Sumerian history. I haven't come accross any islamic verification of the Sitchin's version.The thing about Sitchin is that he claims to be the only one who can decipher the sumerian tablets so we dont have any other view. However, there are a lot of elements in his work which make sense such as the "Royal We" etc. Especially in the old testament, there are a lot of terms e.g. Elohim, Nephelim etc.. which are explained by Sitchin. In the Qur'aan , there is reference to Giants ( Ifriats of Solomon and Goliath), so there is something of this sort in our history too. I come accross a lot of terms in Sitchin's work which are present in the Qur'aan.

The story presented in Sitchin's books does not elaborate on who sent the Annunaki to earth. It mostly focuses on the battle between Enki and Enlil. The actions of both do not fit into any moral or religious mode.

Rahila

P.S You can get a lot of Sitchin's work on www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/sitchinbooks.htm

Salaam Tony!

Have you seen Amir Faatir's web site
http//amirfatir.tripod.com

He advocates the idea of Sama'a = hammered out bracelet= asteroid belt too.

Have you read the Sitchin earth chronicle series?

Rahila

P.S I was going through some old posts and came across your thread on Quraanic initials . I think that only the verses which are preceeded by the declaration "These are signs of the Kitab" are the actual kitab.

Salaam all,

I was amused to read this post so I wanted to tell Bigmo that I am one of the invisible viewers. As for myself, I dont contribute so much on the Forum because sometimes I dont have much to add to the discussions or if i do, I dont have the time. But I like to keep in touch and keep following any new developments or a new view.

Rahila

Salaams DC2 & Ayani,

I spent three years in Limerick ( I am back in Islamabad now) and due to certain emotional reasons Ireland is close to my heart.. I started my journey to God Alone while I was here. welcome

regards

Rahila

Peace all..

My understanding about the above on-going discussion is

1. We have a complete book called the Quran ( Reading)
2. Within the Quran, there are certain ayats which are indicated as the Ayats of the Kitab.
3. Within the Quran, there are certain Ayats indicated as the Ayats of Hikmah.
4. The Quran is also desribed as containing the Furqan ( Criterion).

Same was the case with the previous scriptures. What makes us confused is that we take the Kitab as the whole of the scripture ( i.e. the Quran) where as the kitab in only a part (certain ayats) of the Quran.
regards

Rahila

Peace all..

I experienced the earthquake first hand here in Islamabad. Thanx to ALLAH all of my family are safe although many people I know lost their whole families up in Kashmir.

For those of you who want to donate financially , the best bet is the Edhi foundation..Their credibility is impeccable and they have their own transport for conveying the relief goods to the affected areas.

regards

Rahila

Peace all...

Looking at 6145 and the prohibitions on Carrion, blood poured forth and swine's meat., one thing that strikes me is that all of these things were used as offerings to pagan gods in the past. Maybe that is the reason for it being declared as Rijsun & Fisqun.. It certainly ties in with the one act which is not forgiven by ALLAH i.e associating with false gods or Shirk..

Any views?

regards

Rahila

Peace all..

verse 3039 brought the following understanding to my mind.

3039
And that which you give from Riba ( increase) in order that it may increase from other people's property, has no increase with All?h, but that which you give from Zak?t seeking All?h's Countenance then those, they shall have manifold increase.

What I understand is that We are being commanded to give from Zakaat i.e. Purity and not from Riba i.e Increase. This would imply that Zakaat is the pure amount that we have earned and we are commanded to spend from the Pure amount ( Capital) and not from the increase ( interest) while retaining the capital amount.

This would imply that we are commanded to spend on Kinsfolk, poor, travellers , freeing slaves etc and the amount that we spend should be taken from what we earn ( lawful earnings) , from the capital amount and not from the interest we recieve. That is, we are being commanded to refrain from hoarding.

Why we are commanded to give the Purity ( zakaat) because it is a manifestation of our faith in ALLAH as the PROVIDER and the SUSTAINER.

Going through the following verses , I find the foundations of a financial system , where people are encouraged to spend and spend for the betterment of the society in general and to refrain from hoarding and saving large amounts , hoping to multiply wealth ( fearful of poverty in the future) ALLAH declares that Riba is unlawful and it is mentioned in terms of debts where a person demands more than he has loaned. Only the capital amount is lawful. Also mentioned are the ettiquettes that should be followed in financial transactions.

2254
O you who believe! Spend of that with which We have provided for you, before a Day comes when there will be no bargaining, nor friendship, nor intercession. And it is the disbelievers who are the Z?lim?n

2261
The likeness of those who spend their wealth in the Way of All?h, is as the likeness of a grain ; it grows seven ears, and each ear has a hundred grains. All?h gives manifold increase to whom He pleases. And All?h is All-Sufficient for His creatures' needs, All-Knower.

2262
Those who spend their wealth in the Cause of All?h, and do not follow up their gifts with reminders of their generosity or with injury, their reward is with their Lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve

2263
Kind words and forgiving of faults are better than Sadaqah (charity) followed by injury. And All?h is Rich and He is Most-Forbearing

2264
O you who believe! Do not render in vain your Sadaqah (charity) by reminders of your generosity or by injury, like him who spends his wealth to be seen of men, and he does not believe in All?h, nor in the Last Day. His likeness is the likeness of a smooth rock on which is a little dust; on it falls heavy rain which leaves it bare. They are not able to do anything with what they have earned. And All?h does not guide the disbelieving people.

2265
And the likeness of those who spend their wealth seeking All?h's Pleasure while they in their ownselves are sure and certain that All?h will reward them (for their spending in His Cause), is the likeness of a garden on a height; heavy rain falls on it and it doubles its yield of harvest. And if it does not receive heavy rain, light rain suffices it. And All?h is All-Seer of (knows well) what you do.

2267
O you who believe! Spend of the good things which you have (legally) earned, and of that which We have produced from the earth for you, and do not aim at that which is bad to spend from it, (though) you would not accept it save if you close your eyes and tolerate therein. And know that All?h is Rich (Free of all wants), and Worthy of all praise.

2268
Shait?n (Satan) threatens you with poverty and orders you to commit Fahsh? whereas All?h promises you Forgiveness from Himself and Bounty, and All?h is All-Sufficient for His creatures' needs, All-Knower.

2269
And whatever you spend for spendings or whatever vow you make, be sure All?h knows it all. And for the Z?lim?n there are no helpers.

2271
If you disclose your Sadaq?t (alms-giving), it is well, but if you conceal it, and give it to the poor, that is better for you. (All?h) will forgive you some of your sins. And All?h is Well-Acquainted with what you do.

2272
Not upon you (Muhammad SAW) is their guidance, but All?h guides whom He wills. And whatever you spend in good, it is for yourselves, when you spend not except seeking All?h's Countenance. And whatever you spend in good, it will be repaid to you in full, and you shall not be wronged.

2273
for Fuqar? (the poor), who in All?h's Cause are restricted (from travel), and cannot move about in the land . The one who knows them not, thinks that they are rich because of their modesty. You may know them by their mark, they do not beg of people at all.And whatever you spend in good, surely All?h knows it well.

2274
Those who spend their wealth by night and day, in secret and in public, they shall have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

2275
Those who eat Rib? (usury) will not stand except like the standing of a person beaten by Shait?n (Satan) leading him to insanity. That is because they say "Trading is only like Rib? (usury)," whereas All?h has permitted trading and forbidden Rib? (usury). So whosoever receives an admonition from his Lord and stops eating Rib? (usury) shall not be punished for the past; his case is for All?h (to judge); but whoever returns , such are the dwellers of the Fire - they will abide therein.

2276
All?h will destroy Rib? (usury) and will give increase for Sadaq?t And All?h likes not the disbelievers, sinners.

2277
Truly those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and perform As-Sal?t (Iq?mat-as-Sal?t), and give Zak?t ( Purity), they will have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

2278
O you who believe! Be afraid of All?h and give up what remains from Rib? (usury) , if you are believers.

2279
And if you do not do it, then take a notice of war from All?h and His Messenger but if you repent, you shall have your capital sums. Deal not unjustly and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.

Any comments?

Rahila

Peace P.Bokmei / All

If the dabbatin only obey Allah and and are not proud then, how can they also be disbelievers? Disbelievers disobey and are proud, that is, are dissatisfied with the truth.

Do you deny 855 then..? Which clearly states that some Daabatin ARE Kafiroon.

You also do not have a case..

If Daabatin do not inlude animals and animals cannot make moral choices then how come some of them are Kafiroon. A contradiction arises with 855.

And if Daabatin do include humans, then Humans do disobey ALLAH. so again a contradiction with 1649.

This is a no win situation..

The problem

All Daabatin submit to ALLAH, they are not arrogant and they follow ALLAH's orders but still some of them are Kafiroon.

I believe the key is accepting all verses and not ignoring 855 as you did. There must be some thing that the Daabatin do ( while still submitting to ALLAH, not being arrogant , carrying out ALLAH's commands) which renders them Kafiroon.

Quote

1. ALLAH orders the Malaika to prostrate , IBLIS doesnt.. 234, 711, 1850

Allah, has not defined Iblis as a malaika at this point, it is only an assumption.

Quote
2. ALLAH specifically asks Iblis why didnt you obey when I commanded YOU? 712

Again, Allah, has not defined Iblis as a malaika at this point, it is only an assumption

I would call it Logical deduction rather than assumption. ALLAH orders malaika to prostrate in 711 and when IBLIS refuses, ALLAH asks IBLIS why didnt you obey me when I commanded YOU in 712.

What is decisive here? That IBLIS WAS among the Malaika ordered to prostrate as the Malaika were the only one who were given the order to prostrate. IBLIS was also a JINN. No where in the Quraan , it is stated that being a JINN and a Malaika is mutually exclusive.

In response to your earlier questions, You do not seem to realize what a lot of people have said is that they believe that Malaika is not a species like a human and Jinn , but Malaika is a Designation like a Mu'min. For a Mu'min is a Human being or Jinn who has Iman.. And they are of different species ( now like Dhulqarnain , you may be beleive that the Jinn are also homo sapien sapiens) since one is made of clay and one from smokeless flame ( from a decisive verse)

No, I'm not inferring anything nor am I using 1649-50 exclusively to prove that. My comclusive proof is 1850, where Allah says that Iblis was of the Jinn, beings, created from a scorching wind/fire. To assume that, Iblis is of the malaika creation is to then conjecture that the malaika, are also created of a scorching wind. As Allah, does not give the basic composition of the malaika, it is forbidden for us to conjecture as to their actual basic nature.

It is forbidden for us to conjecture about the composition of Malaika but it is allowed to conjecture about whether Daabatin can or cannot make moral choices? Not a very consistent approach.

No one is actually building up a case here about whether Iblis was or was not an Angel . What I see here in this thread is that most of the people are pointing out the irony in your arguments that while you accuse other people of conjecturing , you are basing your own arguments on nothing but conjecture..

Example..

Animals cannot make moral choices
.. Not backed up by any decisive verse so it is an assumption too.

You also cannot have it both ways.

Idolfree wrote

Peace be upon you Rahila,

There comes a time when we should turn away. Ihope you do not get caught up in this as long as I have been. The brother does not wish to see the clear truth.

I agree.. As I stated earlier that whether Iblis was or was not an angel is not high on my list of priorities. So, unless any body brings up any new verses that are relevant, there is no point in continuing to take this argument furthur.

One thing to think about

Humans in their ego think that they should have all the answers but the fact is that we dont because the knowledge that we were given was very little.

366
Behold! you are they who disputed about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you dispute about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you do not know.

1785
And they ask you about Ar-Rooh. Say The Rooh is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little.

May ALLAH increase us all in Knowledge...

my regards to you ,Priest Bokmei . Although, your arguments failed to prove that Iblis was not an angel, it did provide me with food for thought for other things.

Rahila

Peace P.Bokmei / All

Talking of implications and allusions, can you point to me any decisive verse where it is stated that Iblis was NOT an angel. You are also "INFERING" your conclusion from verse 1649.

In 711 , ALLAH orders the Malaika to prostrate to Adam ( AH) and when Iblis refuses, ALLAh asks Iblis , "What prevented you that you didnt prostrate when I commanded YOU?" 712... This seems pretty decisive to me. ALLAH orders the Malaika to prostrate, then ALLAH specifically mentions that HE commanded Iblis to prostate and that why didnt IBLIS obey the command given earlier ( which was given to HIM).

It really cannot get any simpler and Coherent than that.

Lets summarize the debate

1. ALLAH orders the Malaika to prostrate , IBLIS doesnt.. 234, 711, 1850

2. ALLAH specifically asks Iblis why didnt you obey when I commanded YOU? 712

3. ALLAH states that Iblis was arrogant and of the Kafiroon. 234

4. ALLah states that all Malaika and Daabatin "SUBMIT" to ALLAH and are not "Arrogant" and they do what they are commanded to do. 1649, 1650

5. ALLAH states some of the Daabatin are Kafiroon 855

6. ALLAH states that some Humans and Jinn are Kafiroon and Arrogant. Numerous verses

If Daabatin do not include humans, then there is contradiction between 855 and 1649..

Rahila, take a moment and think about what you are saying here. If you conclude the dabbatan, as mentioned in ayats 1649-50, include humans, well, then you set up a huge contradiction

I agree BUT 1649 clearly states that WHATEVER is on the earth of the DAABATIN submits to ALLAH. There is no exception in 1649 .

Your reply that the Daabatin of 1649 do not include humans and the Daabatin of 855 includes human is contradictory , not complimentary at all and it is based on INFERENCE.

How do you explain this contradiction with a decisive verse?

regards

Rahila

Peace Priest Bokmei / all

No, I am not satisfied with your analysis although I was wrong about messengers being sent to the Jinn community..

You are ignoring the verses 234 , 1850 which clearly imply the Iblis was among the Malaika ordered to prostate to Adam.

We as muslims are ordered to believe in the whole of Quraan and not the verses of our choice. We should be looking of ways to reconcile our understanding of both 234 and 1649 , not citing them one against the other.. I strongly tend towards the explanation put forward by Savage Carrot that Malaika is a "Designation" which can be withdrawn.

326. Say ?O The God, controller/owner of control/ownership; you grant control/ownership to whom You will, and revoke control/ownership from whom You will, and value/honor whom You will, and humiliate whom You will; in Your hand is goodness, indeed You are capable of all things.

Your argument is based on 1649. You conclude from 1649, that Daabatin and Malaika do not disobey ALLAH.. so Iblis cannot be one of the Malaika .

You conclude that Daabatin are animals and do not include humans. You ignore verse 822

822 Verily! The worst of "Dawwab" with All?h are the deaf and the dumb, those who understand not (i.e. the disbelievers).

Here humans are clearly the audience and included in the Daabatin.. So 1649 would mean to include all creation on earth ( Daabatin) and all creation in the heavens ( Malaika)

Ponder on 855 too

855 Verily, The worst of "Daabatin" before All?h are those who disbelieve, - so they shall not believe.

Anyway, whether Iblis was or was not angel is not on my list of priority.

Priest Bokmei... To you, your understanding and to me, mine... Its all about choices in the end.

peace

Rahila

Peace Marie...

Ooops.. missed that one.. ops

I guess the following verses were in my mind..

1643. And before thee also the apostles We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.

1644. And nothing prevented men from believing when the guidance came to them, except that they said "Has All?h sent a man as (His) Messenger?"

1645. And We sent not before you (O Muhammad SAW) but men to whom We inspired, so ask the people of the Reminder if you do not know.

1646. And We did not create them (the Messengers, with) bodies that ate not food, nor were they immortals.

regards

Rahila

Peace all..

Priest Bokmei wrote

If the dabbatan could make a moral choice, that is, have the capacity/ability to consciously disobey Allah, then why hasn't Allah sent messengers with good news and warning to the dabbatan?

P.Bokmei , There is no mention in the Quran of any messenger being sent to the Jinn community either...

Since Prophet Suleman was the only Prophet who interacted with the Jinn as well as the animals, so he might be the messenger who was sent to these communities...

What do you think?

regards

Rahila

Peace all...

2943 mentions "Amthal" i.e example.. This is totally different from "Mutashabihat".

I say ,why would Allah tell us something no one will be able to understand?except him.

To Test who follows the clear verses and who follows the Mutashabihat..

Marie.. thank you for your blessing

regards

Rahila

Peace all...

Here is a word to word transliteration of 37

Huwa Allazi (He who it is) Anzala aleika al-kitaba ( sent down on you THE KITAB / DECREE/BOOK ) Minhu Ayatun Muhkamatun ( In it are Ayat / Signs/ verses decisive/clear) Hunna Ummu ul-kitabi ( they are the mother/ origin/essence of THE KITAB/DECREE/BOOK) Wa'kharu Mutashaabihatun (and some are similar/vague/not clear) Fa'amma allazeena fi quloobihim zaigun ( Then those of them in whose hearts is ZAigun/doubt/deviation) Fayyatabioona Ma tashabaha minha (Then follow / obey what is Similar/ Vague/ Not clear in IT) Abtighaa'al fitnata ( seeking Fitna/ discord/mischief) wa'abtighaa'a Taweelihi ( and following it's hidden ) Wama Ya'lamu Taweelahu Illa Allahu ( And who knows it's hidden except ALLAH) War-Rasikhoona Fil Ilmi Yaqooloona Aa'amanna bihi( And the Firmly grounded in Knowledge say we believe with/in it) Kullun Min Indi Rabbina ( All of it is from Our RABB/ GOD) Wama Yaz-zakkaru Illaa oolul albaabi ( And who remembers it except people of understanding)

It is very clear to me that the Hidden meaning is clear only to ALLAH..
And the people grounded in knowledge acknowledge the fact the whole ( Clear verses plus Mutashabihat) are all from ALLAH and part of the test of sorting out the believers from the disbelievers. As it is the ACTIONS / GOOD DEEDS of the believers which are enjoined on the believers which are the MOTHER of the BOOK, those people who want to find a way out of not doing what the CREATOR has enjoined on us in the BOOK, they base their arguments on the MUTASHABIHAT and try to justify their actions.

This , I believe , is a very basic Human fault. For example, here inthe Free minds Forum, the longest thread is "WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL" which I think is not that vital to our salvation.

This does not mean that we do not seek Knowledge or verify things but my point is that our focus should be on the ACTIONS which are clearly set out as the DEEN in the Quraan.

FOR EXAMPLE

Surah 6

Say (O Muhammad SAW) "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited you from Join not anything in worship with Him; be good and dutiful to your parents; kill not your children because of poverty - We provide sustenance for you and for them; come not near to Al-Faw?hish whether committed openly or secretly, and kill not anyone whom All?h has forbidden, except for a just cause .This He has commanded you that you may understand.
152.
"And come not near to the orphan's property, except to improve it, until he (or she) attains the age of full strength; and give full measure and full weight with justice. We burden not any person, but that which he can bear. And whenever you give your word (i.e. judge between men or give evidence, etc.), say the truth even if a near relative is concerned, and fulfill the Covenant of All?h, This He commands you, that you may remember.[]
153.
"And verily, this is my Straight Path, so follow it, and follow not (other) paths, for they will separate you away from His Path. This He has ordained for you that you may become Al-Muttaq?n (the pious - see V.22)."

Here the actions enjoined are clear..

regards

Rahila