Hello folks..
Q.21 30 Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, before we clove them asunder?
The above could be describing the Saturn Theory. It is said that the earth was revolving around Saturn which is a dim star (in modern cosmology, they are given the name ?failed star?). Later saturn and earth got into the sun?s orbit.

?In modern cosmology, most of the space is vacuum ?...
It has been disputed by electrical engineers and like minded who got into cosmology. They maintain the universe is filled with plasma and electricity.

Page 4, of the below link kind of explains the earth and sun may orbit each other due to a wobble. Maybe, just maybe of this, orbits were not detailed?
http//www.howeverythingworks.org/supplements/the_earth_moon_and_sun.pdf

Of course time will reveal more via dedicated and honest ?observation, experiment and model? kinda scientists . Hopefully mathematicians with their theoretical escapades come clean..

I am not certainly into the flat earth thingy? the shadow on the moon caused by earth during phases-do we need more than that?? I believe the authors of the quran got allegorical verses and perspectives all mixed up with reality?(al-haqq).

Hope to hear more ??

http//www.velikovsky.info/Saturn_Theory
http//www.thunderbolts.info/home.htm
http//www.electric-cosmos.org/

Peace and out

Hello rafi....
"Rajah please take your threats elsewhere ,nobody's making personal attacks on you,"
I was ever attacked over ramadhan issue..it was not pointed at you....Me make no threats...me refer to me response to some one who attacked...you would not care of course...

"why i said you should be ashamed allow me to elobrate i know from certain ayats i've seen that true believers when the hear the quran they sujuud and glorify Allah and ask for forgiveness and from this knowledge I know they wouldn't be making jokes outta verses.."

If you see (And Your God is One God; there is no god Only He) in the bible or any other books would you be saying the same? I am not saying you would think differently from how you did....
I would not call '2163 And Your G is One G; there is no G Only I' a 'joke', maybe an observation presented with a little humour....

"ok so now the truth is shown , since you have doubts about Allah and the preservation of the quran read surah 159"

The quran was preserved by men...period. look at 2163 once again...Men make mistakes...so what if it is a newsman,messenger etc? Allah is Al-Haqq. Honestly I do not have doubts about allah,why should I? maybe a little about the quran and those who are behind it...again 1400 years......blah blah..
Maybe quran has been perfectly preserved, just take a look at our own quran only forum..*100+ pages on fasting maybe a little less on pilgrimage and 'prayer'.....The quran was preserved for what? For this *?

"i really don't know how we can discuss anything any further since everything i would present that we could talk about would be from translations in which you are in doubt over or believe men have written"

My dear rafi, You don have to post anything in response to my posts if you do not wish to,right?.look at the rest of the many 4 star 5 star forum members who just did that-(you would probably say you don care.....) .But if you got anything you would like to share out of your own understanding, I would still want to hear it...esp about ila..Well if you want to ...maybe you want to visit the links....

Again I am not arguing,just defending my views and person....
Peace

http//www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/shariah/ilah.htm
http//whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14935
http//firebasefreedom.us.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=16960&pid=109236&st=0#entry109236

4251 And it is not for any human being that Allah would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills with His permission. He is Most High, Wise.
regards

Peace Rafi...
Nice to hear from you....

'this isn't even funny translating like this you should be ashamed of yourself..'
No I am not ashamed of myself at all!..Those who should be are those who have translated the quran to please others...Big G small g..WTH? Those who should be ashamed... those who consider the (quranic) arabic to be holy language..those who buy stickers of Allah (of course the muhamad too) and treat it like talisman...
I found it rather funny...yes the way I put it, the 'G's and the final 'H'. It really looks likes an equation ...I don't expect it to be the funny for the rest..What I find goddamn* funny even much more is that 1400 yrs has passed since the 'appearance' of the quran,look at the 'muslim' world...It is not the translation, it is the understanding!!! of course, i only feel bad that some may take offense..that may hinder progress in the search for truth..My apologies if what i did might lead to that....

I don't know if anyone really cares,I do not think the quran was written by a god or anything...It was written by men. It may have faults..proof? 2163..and a few more.The language is quite cryptic..subject matters all over the place... No one really speaks that language at home....BUT I respect the quran and the efforts of all those who made it a reality by preserving ideas form the past inspired by the creator..I believe after the council of nicea A.D. 325 some people put it (quran) together again..sorry no proof..just a thought...
Okay.enough of my rant...

Remember, I did not make any direct attacks on anyone, I just did a number on a line from the quran.let the creator do a number on me if it wants to.that's it..anyone who wishes to do personal attacks on me..think twice..i can be the nasty ....

Okay back to subject proper, 2163 And Your God is One God; there is no god Only He, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Come to think about it,The above line even looks like it is against the concept of monotheism which still requires a supernatural imaginary thing called god.

Of course, we all have different opinions from each other-i respect that-whether anyone really cares about it or not!

Peace to all

Hello folks,
Here is a little something....

2163 Wailahukum ilahun wahidun la ilaha illa huwa alrrahmanu alrraheemu
2163 And Your God is One God; there is no god Only He, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
and finally a simplified equation
2163 And Your G is One G; there is no G Only He, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

Peace...

It should read as
The above also may give perspectives. Here, Pharoah (firuan) was talking about Moses and his ?god? for Pharoah had never heard of Allah.

Salaam abdulraffi.
Corrections on my previous port on February 21, 2010, 012720 PM
Illah- but, except (ill? is a contraction of in-l?, literally if not)
Ilaha - my own understanding- a god (a concept conceived by a desperate need to believe in something supernatural). And of course the mainstream view -a god, deity, object of worship
Ilahun- a (single) god
WA ILAHU KUM ILAHUN WAHIDUL LA ILAHA ILLA HU WAR RAHMAN UR RAHEEM
2163 And Your God is One God; there is no god Only He, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

If you look at the above sentence, you will notice some kind of contradiction with the ?No God? approach. The contradiction will cease to exist if one takes perspective into mind. Whoever* was saying this was approaching a people who had already a concept of god. Before I go on, Concepts are man made and Allah is not a concept it is reality. (The Hu in my humble opinion has mistranslated as ?He? when it should be actually ?It)?. The person* was giving an ultimatum, for he was playing a role of a warner.
He was trying to convince the folks that if there is a god at all, it should be one (or unique-?wahid?) and that one god is Allah. In my opinion, once the people were told about Allah not being a god but a source of energy and life and what not, they were expected to be convinced and follow through.

2838 And Pharaoh said O commanders, I have not known of any god for you other than me**. Therefore, O Haamaan, fire-up the bricks and make for me a high platform, so perhaps I may take a look at the god of Moses; though I think he is one of the liars.
Waqala firAAawnu ya ayyuha almalao ma AAalimtu lakum min ilahin ghayree faawqid lee ya hamanu AAala altteeni faijAAal lee sarhan laAAallee attaliAAu ila ilahi moosa wainnee laathunnuhu mina alkathibeena

The above also may give perspectives. Here, Pharoah (firuan) was talking about Moses and his ?god? for Moses had never heard of Allah. The Pharoah could only think at this level when it came to what was Moses serving. Again, if allah is a god, at this point allah is equal to pharaoh** which is not .

The other well known abused verse is 1886 Until he reached the setting of the sun; he found it setting at a hot spring, and he found a people near it. ?.
This verse has been used to criticize the quran having the idea of the sun setting in a hot spring!

The person* was making references to earlier ideas/concepts about god. That is why we find ?god of moses?, ?god of jesus? appearing in the quran and this was to correct the misconceptions.

For some reason, and I think not for the good of mankind, the quran seems to talk about things in random rather than in a sequential way.

You may not agree with what I said, it is okay. I thought about perspectives and wrote it down first and then I compared with all available literature.

Let us all help each other while we are here?
Peace.

salaam FAR,
How did you derive at 'Iblis is in the chest somewhere around the heart'.
Peace.

Salaam Nur,
Do you think the god nodule could be the hypothetical iblis that misleads mankind with god/religious delusions. Iblis took refuge in our pyche. whether via drugs or without drugs many have imaginary beings in their concious that seems so real to them and they are convinced of their existence. So much so, they become violent in defending their views. There are so many articles about being 'hardwired to believe in a god'.I don't feel this is a good thing (obviously).
peace...

Peace...
The below is an excerpt from http//www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Dawkins_Richard/God_Delusion_Interview.html.. My physics is basic and I tend to stop reading when things get too sci-fi,spooky and imaginary. It is a physical universe and physics must address this instead of creating myths. When observation is longer practiced, it may not be science anymore. Imagination is good but it is not good to explain truth.
About physics proving existence of god, just look at the response given by Dawkins. It looks like he could be one of the few mainstream ?atheist? who thinks straight. Of course Dawkins too into big bang and hopefully he ?wakes up? and spreads truth?I hope the last sentence of his from the excerpt below is read by many in this forum. Of course credit is due to all writers debunking myths that are being churned out by theoretical mathematicians.

Terrance McNally I, too, wish God had been more specific. What do you make of the recent scientific conversations about certain phenomena such as a "God nodule" in the brain?

Richard dawkins There is a certain amount of evidence that specific parts of the brain do have something to do with so-called religious experience. I've had experience of the work of the Canadian neurophysiologist, Michael Persinger. He tries to mimic the effects of temporal lobe epilepsy by passing magnetic fields through the brain. In about eighty percent of subjects, when he passes magnetic fields through certain parts of the brain, he can induce religious or mystical experiences. The details of the religious experience depend upon how the person was brought up. So, if the person was Catholic, they tend to see Virgin Marys or whatever it might be. I turned out to be one of the twenty percent for whom it didn't work. If it had worked for me, I probably wouldn't have seen any gods, but I probably would have experienced some sort of mystical experience of Oneness with the Universe.

Read on...cheers..

Salaam
?ok you understand different translations to the quran like Abdun Nur then the mainstream Muslims , i'm wondering do you also use the system (lexicon) for translating like Abdun Nur does???
-I read all the translations available to me but never really attempted to use the lexicon because I have not learnt to use it. I came across an Indonesian scholar?s ?No god? reading of the quran but parted ways with a student as their claim of muhamad being higher than allah appalled me.

?also would you mind me asking you in your translation what Illah , illaha, illahun is translated to??? please translate them all if you wouldn't mind?

Illah- (the common one) a god(a concept of ultimate authority).
Ilaha
Ilahun
The rest coming soon. Good luck to me!!

salaam Nur,
Thank you for the kind words. You have come this far...please do not stop inspiring!
peace.
rajah.

Hello..
The messenger/prophet was delivering the revelation to people who had already a religion and of course, a concept of a G/god or G/gods to go along with it. This is already well known among all of you.
During earlier times we had nations & national religions. All the gods had the same features as the people who created them. Nationalistic, cultural and racial pride dictated religions and the way the creator was represented.
He was reminding them that there is no such thing called god but rather a creator that does not require any forms of worship, adoration or trivialized into a craftwork that could be shaped and coloured by whims and fancies.
That is why the messenger/prophet* had to introduce himself (roughly) as someone sent from ?not a God? (Allah -Allathee La llah) to the people he went to. If you think about it, he was distinguishing himself from all who were propagating, promoting a concept called god that was already in existence. This could be the reason why the messenger/prophet was called a madman as his revelation could not sit well with those following the teachings of whatever religion they were born into or had chosen to follow.
Richard Dawkins many a time has mentioned ?we are all atheists but some go one God further? (something like that) as we do not agree on the concept of a god as established in each others? religions.(there are differences between atheists themselves). Even science has a concept of God. Einstein, Michio and few others would not blush mentioning ?god? in their ?sermons? and books.
So, G/god is truly an imaginary thing that is not consistent even among its believers. To some, God warps time, creates big bangs, sabotages the LHC, has a white son, tells people to form a nation out of the blue, take avatars, grants wishes like a genie** etc etc
Allah is consistent as allah is not a god. Allah is the creator nevertheless, of course.
The quran is a very important document as it is a saving grace. It can take on challenges from secular and religious communities, provided it has been correctly understood and we had not allowed any ?religious? and ?godlike? imaginary interpretations.

*the human being sent to nations/tribes at various times.
**3436 3439 4219-more like laws of probability at work.

I hope all are at peace and help each other out in any way that we can.

Hello....
Allah the word in question. Well for the record, if anyone gives a rat tail (IAGART), I for one did not derive at my ideas via Sufi means.

The concept of one God is a seductive one (i believe someone will chide me for sayimg that IAGART). What is the point in that?

Okay back to subject proper...I mentioned this before and I mention it again. I am using the quran and the quran only. The creator addressed itself as Al Haqq, Al Rahman, etc etc but never Al-Ilah. Al-Ilah is so explicit! Why would not the creator address itself as just that...becoz it is not that!!! (pardon for me for using 'it' for the creator)...

Step outside the quran for a while, maybe whoever writing it down was trying to deceive us? The prophet/messenger/messenger of the covenant/scribe was living in the midst of jews and catholics who could have been very powerful and influential and could have injecting ideas..i am just thinking out loud! Just imagine,1400 years and look at the 'muslim world'. if the quran was easy to read and and not just easy to read but could be understood easily the world would be a better place. God is imaginary..You can challenge any atheist and they will show you their spaghetti monster....
Sorry for side tracking....peace !!!!

Hello bro rafi,
Welcome?.
Well I am no expert in arabic but Allah does not really mean a god or something. The mainstream ?understanding? of la illaha illah has always been an illogical expression* for me. Calling allah a god is placing allah alongside the many gods, goddesses, godlings (their children) in an ever growing pantheon this world is witnessing. Allah has no counterpart and allah did not really leave us hanging as allah revealed some aspects of allah's self see Surah 59-22 to 24 , 2435. Allah also told us that to him belongs all the beautiful names which allah could be addressed by, so using god or the god may be incorrect.
Unbelief is rather if one does not believe in Allah at all.
Believe me you, all this talk about one god for all religions is only going to make it easier for power hungry people to rule all of us.
I am not telling you what to do but I believe if you read zoroastrian stuff you know where modern day mainstream muslims got the ideas about god and all the practices from. What many muslims are following now is simply a form of dualism. God vs Devil
Please forgive if I had wasted your time by telling you things that you may already know.
*No god but the god?No bus but the bus?.No book except the book..etc etc..One is both denying and accepting something at the same time.

Hello....

"They have certainly disbelieved who say, ?Allah (Not God) is the third of three*, and there is no god except one God.? And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. (Surah 5 - 73) - from servantof thelight

573 Rejecters indeed are those who have said God is a trinity! There is no god except One god. If they do not cease from what they are saying, then those who reject from among them will be afflicted with a painful retribution. - freeminds.org

*Allh al-ab meaning God the father, Allh al-ibn mean God the son, and Allh al-r al-quds meaning God the Holy Spirit.
This interesting as allah is not even given the first place.

-Webster?s Dictionary gives the definition and etymology of Allah as follows. Allah is the Muslim name for "the God." Allah is derived from two words "al," which means "the" and "ilah," which is related to the feminine Hebrew word for God, "eloah."
If the above is true for "La illah ha illallah" , then it would be similar to say ?there is no car but The Car?. A contradiction. Is not the car still a car? This even makes allah smaller as allah is just another god and looking back at the xtian concept no wonder allah was qualified as the third of the 3....i am just thinking aloud..Yes I am using the translation form ser.......com

?How would you interpret "Allah La Ilaha Illa Huwa Al Hay Al Qayoom"?
I too wanna know!!

A peaceful approach to truth may work wonders?..

Hello.
The pork eater may be at fault too. It is basically supply and demand. Just like they say,"when the buying stops the killings stop too". (WWF-the animal protection)

There are so many things that we do not buy or consume..even though we can afford them...

peace...

Hello all...apparently to this gentleman the equation E=mc2was not peer reviewed.
http//www.brojon.org/frontpage/EINSTEIN-WENT-WRONG.html
good weekend...

Hello everyone..
How true is Allah = Al + Ilaha = The God..Is this an invention too? Allah, if you look at it in its simplest form, could be Al (the) + Lah (No..Nothing)..I could be wrong ...just thinking...

If Allah is truly is "The God " why did not he call himself just that..I am "Al Ilaha"...instead of "Allah".

cheers.... O0

what do you think, is there some truth in this article?

Please compare the rituals of the muslims with the hindus. and you will see it is true. One fine examplewhat the muslims wear during haj and what hindus wear at death and at ganges-almost identical. If mecca had running water...it would be the 2nd Ganges. Muslims too perform 'baptism' which originated from taking a dip in the ganges. The black stone lingam has been tranformed into female genitalia. I have a lot of hindu friends who had been telling all these ever since I was 7. One culture follows another and most often blindly..Ask them to explain why they do that..they will always say "they do it..we just follow..who are we to question the rituals prepared by our forefathers?'.

They are so many views on how religion started..afrocentric views vs Eurocentic vs Vedic......

peace.....