You may wish to first begin with defining what you mean by "slave", and what is the Quranic term you are referring to.

You may be surprised at how helpful that is. See this excellent past discussion
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600888.0

Thanks Wakas, it was a good thread.

I noticed you pointed out that it wouldn't make sense to free a slave where they had willingly made an agreement to serve (which could be for a number of reasons) so from that I can see it is important to be clear on what I mean by using the term slavery. Rightly or wrongly I wouldn't consider a deal made by one person who owes another to work off that debt slavery unless certain rights were being taken from that person alongside. For example if the person is held captive in anyway, unable to communicate freely, unable to choose for themselves who they socialise with, what the eat, how they keep their money, I guess those things would be examples.

But then today there are many agreements, military would be a good example I guess, where many rights are taken from people when they 'sign up' but they are usually aware of those things and thereby agree to the them.

A.W. thanks for you post and I am sadly aware of slavery's continued existence so I'm with you on that wholeheartedly.

You wrote "Bear in mind though that certain jobs, such as servants at a household is also understood to be slavery. That doesnt mean that all of those households are horrible to their slaves. Often these unfortunate people dont have the means to be independent. So, freeing them can also be understood to give them the means to become independent."

I don't feel that someone who is a servant should be considered a slave unless they are being treated as such, in which case I would consider that wrong. I hope I'm understanding you correctly, but isn't to say that they may not have the means to be independent suggesting that they are being treated as slaves, as opposed to workers with lives and rights? The should be working in someone's home as a servant with pay and the right to family, friends, choices and so on.

Man of Faith Thanks for your input. "Yes, slavery has always been wrong. Many people are also confused by the ancient kind of employment that involved several years of servitude but where the servant was let free for a compensation. Ancient world contract."

I admit I don't know much about any ancient world contracts but what you describes sounds fine to me, unless there is 'servitude' that is somehow forced and where basic rights are taken away from the person. I guess that is where my issue begins.

runningwithzebras I apologise for my overly blunt comments to you, you do indeed have a right to express yourself, and I appreciate you trying to help. While I note you believe that the threads discussions are entirely related, for me, perhaps because I don't claim to be proficient in the study of Quran, nor do I really enjoy getting bogged down in it, it has ended up too complex (for me).

Frankly when this happens, as it seems to often do on here, it makes wonder - I mean, how in gods name is Quran supposed to be advice for all time if we have to expend this much effort to understand anything - and even then, as evidenced here, nobody can agree on anything!

Please understand from the above that I'm stating how these situations make me 'feel', not trying to prove anything regarding Quran.

runninglikezebras, ignoring your intentions, your posts are causing my genuine questions and answers people have been kind to give, to be hidden amongst unrelated arguments.

For those who've posted to try and help me, thank you so much. It's late here so I'm very sorry I to have to wait until tomorrow to reply to them.

Very good observation. It doesn't matter Abraham built it or not.. this kind of ritual is nothing but idolatry..

This reply is really a general one in relation to idolatry and what that constitutes. I often feel confused when people discuss it because I have seen first hand the way some people worship or practice - not just in Islam but also in Christianity and Buddhism - and while sometimes it does seem as though they are 'worshipping' the statues (or other things), in reality that is not always the case.

For examply in Buddhism, at least in the Buddhism with which I am familiar, the idea is that the statues are a 'focus' in meditation and whatever other practices they do, and also a reminder. There is nothing idolatrous (hope that word is correct) about that (in my opinion). Of couse not everyone would stop at that, for some the lines might blur, but the basic point is that just because a statue is involved it doesn't mean that a person is praying to the statue, devoted to the statue, imbibing the statue with elements and powers that it clearly doesn't have.

We can't always know what goes on in someone elses mind and I think that makes it difficult to make judgements regarding concepts like shirk.

Peace Mushu - it does help! Thank you )

I did see it a matter of religious freedom - you're right there! And I take that very seriously because I know it's easy to dump on those who have different beliefs to us. I'm not talking about having an opionion, we all are different to each other, but rather when we act to make life difficult or even unbearable for another group because we soooo desperately believe we are right. How can anyone be that sure that they are willing to force that upon others? I guess Abraham may have had that knowledge because he was in contact with God (via iphone of course lol) but what about everyone else? Can we prove the existence of God? No. So I alway have this feeling that it's better to do what we do and if God wants people to see the truth and be drawn to the truth then it will happen.

That video and the way it presented the story was really confronting for me. I wonder how many ill deeds have been done because a person looked at that story and used it wrongly. )

"It is clear he was opposing an utterly corrupt social system. With this in mind, how do I understand his actions? I believe his actions were definitely civil disobedience."

I see your point and I am not against civil disobedience per se - there is a definitely a time and place for it. I have to go out now but I'll look at those passages you noted further this afternoon.

)

In cases other than Abraham's (where it is both literal and figurative), yes.

You don't think that it was his people who were actually in danger (that was only perceived by Abraham at the moment)?

If you want to get a glimpse of Abraham's actual method for "bringing people to true Islam", then passages about how he built a House and maintain it with his family should be much more interesting to you.

Salaam San. Yes maybe it was...though that wasn't made clear in the video I had the misfortune to be subjected to or if it was it was drowned out by all the anti-polytheist crap. I would like to read more about the house but a couple of days ago when I re-read all the Abraham parts in Quran I didn't find that. Do you have a reference? If not it's ok I'll try to find it this afternoon. Thanks )

Abraham didn't break the idols out of hate or malice. He did it only to help them contemplate seriously on there beliefs. Yes he did pull a prank on his people. However in God's eye what Abraham's people did was FAR more worse.

Peace,
Kevin.

Hehe Kevin, yeah I just referred to that ayah in my last post. I can see (or I assume) that 2164 was like a seed sprouting even if they then go on to do more wrong. I appreciated your post - the way you described it is a more comfortable way for me to think about it at the moment )

But you have read the story in AQ right? ???

Smash em all, except the biggest one, when the idolaters return, tell them to ask the biggest one who did it etc.

Yeah I know. And there is an ayah whre they actually say they understand or believe or something but then they continue to carry on with idolatry. 2164

Alright so Quran does suggest that on some level it had effect. I just find it a really odd way to make a point, in particular given that we are not supposed to force someone. Since you can't get inside someones head to implant a belief then that would always be through force, coercion etc I would think.

Also I think what is confusing the issue here (for me) is that most idols are not worshipped as though they can do anything anyway. They tend to be more of a "focus" when praying & meditating. Christians might revere the statues 'becuase' to them they're in the likeness of God but I've never met one who though that a statue 'was' God. Nor a Buddhist. I don't know much about Hindu practices. Maybe my lack of knowledge about what they practiced is a problem.

From my understanding Abraham smashed the idols to show the idolaters how foolish there idol worship was. He wanted to show them from a logical perceptive how stupid it was to worship(and idolize) what you and I create.

But please, please, please someone tell me/show me how that was showing thm "from a logical perspective how stupid" their actions were. If you can, that is what I need.

However make no mistake, no true prophet or true messenger would willfully try to force someone to believe in Islam.
God says in the Quran,

2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been made clear from the wrong way. Whoever rejects the transgressors, and acknowledges God, has grasped the firm branch that will never break. God is Hearer, Knower.

Yes. That's right, it does say there is NO COMPULSION. So what was the purpose of destroying property that didn't belong to him? To make a point? Again, what point? What point is demonstrated when we go and destroy something important from another religion?

We are given the freedom to choose. This means that no one including messengers of God and prophets of God can spread God's religion by the sword or through force. This is also true for cases where parents have children. For example, if i had children I can't force them to believe in the Quran and God Signs. They themselves must come to this understanding. I am not responsible for what you believe and you are not responsible for what i believe. Every person is responsible for his or her own belief. All we can do is admonish one another through discourse.
Peace,
Kevin

Thank you and yes I totally agree. I guess I just don't understand how this really important Prophet's behaviour fits with that.

Nice. I was about to mention music and socialising, but you beat me to it. Lately I have been taking comfort in late night stroll by the beach (it's pretty convenient when you live just a few minutes away from the beach).

I often find going to social events/works to help lift my energy, because I get the opportunity to meet with sincere, humble individuals who have this positive energy. Anyway, that may be quite impractical because you can't just find any social events whenever you feel sad D.

Other way for me to release negative energy is by writing, drawing and cooking/eating good, healthy food. Also reminding myself of several uplifting Qur'anic verses, such as the ones in Surah 93 and 94. They always help ^^.

Good point BornAgain - hobbies and interests that you are really into can be great. I have known many people who don't really have anything like that - in fact I was like that for a long time when I was young. It's much nicer to have something you are passionate about.

Just so you know, this is source of my current problems

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szo_949-_Yg

I would never have watched it except I've started going to women's study group again with my friends. I don't know if I can attend again though since this has really rocked my world in a bad way. '( Just for the record (and I know this will sound horrible) I hate that sheikh. His whole way of presenting Islam disgusts me. He's so high and mighty - like the disbelievers are such a joke. The thing is, I may not agree with the disbelievers when it comes to religion - but I like them! There are some great non-Muslims out there, doing great things....and I don't think that becuase they think differently to me that they are a joke.

I freakin' hated this video....nearly had an aneurism watching it. sigh

But he did point out the Abraham/idols thing and now I have to deal with that.

Rana

So was the observation of those who were managing those hand sculpted idols.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/021.%20Al%20Anmbia/21.59.gif
They/clergy men said, "Who has done this act with our various iela'aha? Indeed he who has done this is certainly from amongst the unjustly cruel ones"
Howver, the moment point became clear to onlookers, they who had said this were declared as
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/021.%20Al%20Anmbia/21.64.gif
In consequence/thereby they returned to their own selves whereby they said, "Indeed you people you are the people who are distorters/unjust"

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/021.%20Al%20Anmbia/021.%20D%20Al%20Anmbia.htm

I appreciate the effort Mazhar but I can't understand this or your point. )

Background
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596544.0

As a side note, pointless destruction is not the same as destruction with a beneficial purpose and outcome.

Wakas I totally agree with you. As I said in the last post there are times when I very much believe it's a good idea to take physical (and sometimes) destructive action. I would like to work out if this is one of those times.

Thanks for the link. I'll check it more thoroughly.

...but why would he do that if it wasn't for what his people did?

San that was my original question - why? The answer I've been given seems to be because they threatened to burn him (I think?).

See if it can help you see the real problem

Out-sourcing your thought process (including decision-making on just about everything life has to offer) to a man-made device that does not and can not do anything by its own is the real danger to and the real destruction of humanity. It renders the God-given facility useless. Furthermore, authority becomes the next great concern, as whoever takes control of the idol, takes control of the idolizer. Scale it up to a whole nation and watch the people regress.

What have all the prophets done, if not smash the-idols-of-the-age and bring the responsibility back to where the true power is?

Did they really all smash idols? Did I manage to miss that - entirely possible I suppose since I missed the bit about Abraham. I mean, I've read the whole Quran but it doesn't always all sink in - I can't take it all in that easily.

Or are you speaking metaphorically?

Because I don't see what physical smashing would have to do much of the time with bringing people to true Islam. To me that is like bringing people to Islam by the sword. I understand when people have no rights and/or are being attacked. To me that is the time for physical action - demonstrations, attacks, self-protection. But otherwise? It seems wrong to me.

So can someone tell did Abraham smash the idols because his rights were being smashed? Or because he was in danger?

Wat.

Smashing his father's statues, yes. And it was beneficial. His father, and the leaders realized the point he made, but their response was to burn the messenger.

So what happened that was beneficial? I hate to try and help you with this but is it simply the fact that 'maybe' a seed was planted in their heads that idols are not a great thing to put your faith in?

Aren't you advocating it? So is it okay if i go ahead and burn the Taliban who broke Buddhist idols? Somebody steals my quran, I should burn the bastard? Are you seriously telling me the latter is less adverse than the former?! I don't care what caused it. Attempted murder is attempted murder. No need to rationalize it.

No I never suggested for a moment that I support burning anybody for ANYthing. Perhaps I worded in such a way that lets someone take that impression if they want to.

Clearly attempted murder is attempted murder and one must protect myself. If a catholic comes to try and kill me though - I won't be protecting myself by smashing their idols.

You have a rather long line of ancestry don't you?

Not in my opinion. Smashing up statues on their own is pointless. It's more about the mindset, what Abraham did. Much different contexts.

Are you saying because Abraham was special so he had a special mindset which made smashing up statues beneficial?

How is that force and destruction?

To me it seemed obvious.

If you had a family member, clearly headed on the wrong path, you wouldn't care? Just turn a blind eye?

I do have family members who are on what 'I' would percieve to be the wrong path. Lets take one of them as an example. She is catholic but I do not feel the need to smash any of her things, nor go to any church she might attend and break, smash or vandalise anything there either.

Instead I pray for them and to the best of my abilities I try to lead a reasonable life.

Isn't this kind of attitude the same one that led to the destruction of the Buddhist carvings in Afganistan? http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamyan I don't know if you think that is ok, but I don't. I prayed they wouldn't do it and when it happened I was horrified and disgusted that muslims felt the need to impose 'their' religion and their beliefs on others by destruction of something that was historically and religiously significant to so many.

Let me give you an example. Pork is mentioned in the Quran. It's clearly prohibited so....should I go around and kill any pigs that people in my town might be keeping in order to prevent them from being eaten?

Should I go into peoples houses and check their fridge and freezer for pork products and then destroy them?

I don't view the stories as literal, historical truths per se (they may very well be, but it is of no concern to me), I'm more focused on the messages. That being said, you should call an idiotic thing as an idiotic thing. Why must we live a superficial lie to ourselves and others who we purport to care about? Whatever happened to standing up for the truth?

Maybe we are getting closer to one answer now - viewing it as non-literal.

I know what you are saying about standing up for the truth. I just don't see that as a reasonable or ethical way to stand up for it.

I don't see how it's forcing ones beliefs onto others, at all. He never said 'believe me or else' or 'only my path is right'. He said, your path is clearly wrong and its illogical nonsense. "Oh you don't see it? Let me show you". Abraham challenged his father to think, maybe he would see the light, but when shit hit the fan he found is his own path.

Also, wasn't it his father and his minions who tried to burn Abraham? Who was the destructive force, really?

p.s. no hostility intended peace

Who was the destructive force? They were trying to burn him 'after' he destroyed all but one of their statues, correct me if I'm wrong. Of course I'm not advocating burning people here - but, I'm not asking about what the nonbelievers did. I want to know what Abraham really did and why.

You don't see how this could be 'forcing your beliefs onto others?'. Seriously?

One more thing. Working with a similar framework or mindset I could go into every church in my town and smash up their statues and God would be pleased with my work?

He's being a smartass. He's calling out his father's beliefs as rather silly, being satirical, that as is the tone throughout the Quran idols are powerless to do anything (2273).

Well Jack, or anyone else, is the way for Muslims to change things by force and destruction? To make a point by smashing up other peoples things.

To me it sounds like vandalism. A criminal act. Forcing ones beliefs onto others.

That leaves me this morning feeling very uneasy because I can't say ''it's the hadith''. It's written right there in Quran.

Pls give me a hand here someone. Thanks. )

So they may believe he did it.

peace Paradox. So they may believe he did what?