Firstly. read my post again , i was advocating forums are the workshop for racism .you will find racism in every religious forum,but i was not blaming salafism or Christianity or JAQs
Secondly,as per you signature and your opinion regarding GOD ,it is evident you are in a confused state .yet you want find fault with your family members or at least you are not comfortable with them in religious issues.i wonder how you came to the conclusion that your family members are at fault when you yourself don't know about your faith .you are here because majority of people here are against the stereotype Islam .Note that "majority" ,this is what counts as the base of racism . if your type of people in your country had been in the majority then your family members might have been at the receiving end .
honestly i don't believe in apostasy .particularly in Islam .they may go against stereotype Islam but once the faith in ALLAH subhanvatala enters in to the mind and heart it never fades .only morons and imposters can became apostate .

do you want to know about tolerance .......read the post made by jafar

This is called love and tolerance .even if you are not be comfortable with other people ides but if pretending as accepting them make them feel happy and maintains the decorum of the family and society then whats wrong in it . this is called tolerance .first decide your faith then point your fingers on others

Mmm, i think that you represent the typical religous discrimination by your reply, please have a look at what you've wrote and see how much hate and discrimination you put in there!!!

You are mocking me just because i do n't follow a religon or specificly "Islam"!!!! You think that i am inferior to you just because i'm confused in the area of religons, well i think it is none of your business if i follow a religion or not, i have enough people to "tolerate" in my life, i don't need to add more.

"only morons and imposters can became apostate ."

REALLY??? you should be ashamed of yourself and your language!!! you are the exact type of people who are discriminate others depending on their religions. I won't accept any further INSULT in my thread!!!

2nd point, there is a huge difference between tolerance and racism, well if i tolerate and accept others no matter what they believe in, i would expect the same acceptance from them, otherwise it will be discrimination, racism and even fascism!!!!

In case it will makes you feel better.
I am very sure that the religion of Islam is a man made doctrine created with political domination and imperialism as goal.
Just like the (majority) of any other religion.

I do the daily gymnast (if required, good for the flexibility of your muscle and joint), fast (very good spiritual exercise) and go to Makkah if a family member asked for my accompaniment, yet I don't or never see it as "obligation" as I was made / told to view it to be..
I see it merely as doing the "tradition".. just because I was born in such cultural context...

The author / inventor of Islam religion has created a comprehensive mechanism of control to ensure every sheep stay within the flock.
I don't know where you live, I do understand that it can be dangerous on some countries when you become an "apostate" / "murtad" from the religion of Islam. The penalty is DEATH by STONING.

As such, if you are living in such country, I advise you to not leaving the religion of Islam.

The death penalty is NECESSARY to ensure that people will always stay afraid to THINK CRITICALLY about the doctrine of Islam.
As thus the (fallacious) doctrine can always survive..

http//elsasblog.com/image-files/yusuf-al-qaradawi-apostasy-punishment-death.jpg

Yes, RELIGIO FACISM is very common among muslims..
It's caused by multiple factors, among others is the sense of "inferiority" within today's world..
Such symptom is called "Inferiority Complex". Any form of "arrogance / supremacy" usually caused by a sense of inferiority within.. as can also be observed within the German society post World War I which gives birth to Nazi's Facism.

They're feeling very 'insecure' which cause sensitivity when they encounter different ideas on the issues which they themselves are not very sure.. Yet they're told to believe on certain things by their "Mind Master" (Clerics, Ulema, Parents) which they MUST accept otherwise they're qualified to be an apostate.

Such mentality is not exclusively exist within religion of Islam, it also exist in any other doctrinal religion. (ie Christianity, Judaism)

How to change the mentality?
A very good question, unfortunately there isn't any silver bullet to such problem.
What I do tried is to show 'logical fallacies' within the religion of Islam itself and also to tell others about the history on why and how the religion of Islam get invented. Sometimes to ease the resistance I first show the "logical fallacies" within other religion before showing them that such fallacies also exist in your own religion.

But... I never asked them to convert or uncovert from their religion of Islam..

So far.. I've been quite successful with those who are close to me.. they're still Sunnis (And I don't mind it at all) yet they've accepted that their own doctrine is not infallible, there are fallacies and they are tolerant to other ideas. And they never judge other human being merely based on their religion / cult / doctrinal ideas.

Thank you for your help. Lol, it is good that to find a way to live with these traditions. You are so lucky to live in a more open minded community, do they know that you do these rituals just to share them these traditions and not because of a religous reason?

In the 2 countries i live in, my family members, my friends and my colleagues always insist on me to practice these practices if i pretended that i forgot or i actually forgot. Even when someone of them notices this change they try to make sure that i'm still muslim -_- and i'm tired & get sick of pretending and making excuses for them all the time.

I agree with you regarding the causes of religious discrimination in Islamic or middle east countries. I think the main problem that make it worse is when they deny its existence or just try to hide the truth which make it even worse and harder. I agree with you about the inferiority complex and insecurities Muslims have, as you can read in this post, some people started to defend of Islam in spite i know that they know that religious discrimination is one cause of many causes that destroy Islamic and middle east countries currently.

I like your strategy in the logical fallacies with them, they'll absolutely feel more comfortable after you acknowledge the negatives in the other religions. Though, i think teaching people to be open minded in areas regarding the beliefs of others will help too, do you think there is any way to teach people how to stop worrying and being anxious about others beliefs and trying to control or enforce the others, even if this person could your spouse or child?

Well, last point it is not someone's business to control or judge on others believe, i don't control or even care about others believes and i expect others to do the same with me. So your reaction with your family for me is the normal and usual reaction.

I think the question needs to be reworded as How can we eradicate discrimination based on beliefs. Neither Muslims nor atheists are a race.

Just tell them the truth. Since you don't judge them they should not do it with you.

I'm talking about the people i live with in home and work, and the countries i live in which are Muslims and 2 Islamic country!!!

If it was that easy, i won't bothering myself in writing a long post like that!

Assalamualaikum ,STT
Yes ,i can understand your situation, STT
It is very difficult to remain eccentric.you are asking a correct question at a wrong place .in my opinion , religious forums are the workshop for racism .All forums ,whether Islamic or un Islamic ,all the same.
initially ,i accidentally landed in a anti Islamic forum (that is were i started forum writhing ) .i used to think why i am here in those days but now i realize why i was there.you may know how it would be to live like a alien .
then , on a salafi forum , here also the same .you are not allowed think beyond salasfism .now i am here ,i feel the same here as well .
As Christians don't like Muslims , similarly, salafis don't like people of other sects ,even here i feel i am being biased .quranist (JAQs )cannot accommodate other free minds .yet they all talk about unity ,brotherhood and those bla...bla...blas to the length and breath .you are not allowed to think beyond the their view point .so , i call all religious forums are the workshop of racism .

but.......

i can tell you a religious book which is free from racism .it is nothing but quran

tell me which religious book got these type of verses
verse 2.62
Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in All?h and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve .

salafis deny this verse by the concept of abrogation but they remain blind when asked about this verse which got the similar message
verse 5.69
Indeed, those who have believed and those who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians - those who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

is it not the proof of anti racism .if you want more , i can give and prove my point .

finally , why don't you ask this question to yourself , if you cannot accommodate your family's point of view on religion , then it makes you a racist as well .accommodate every religion that is what Islam tells .......ponder and turn to Islam ......don't be a racist !

Regards
Mushtaq

Hello parvez mushtaq,

Thank you for your reply, but it is completely off topic.

My question and my topic were about HOW TO ERADICATE THE RELIGIOUS RACISM IN ISLAMIC COMMUNITIES and about my trapped situation because of that!!!

I did not ask if Islam or Muslim communities incite the religious hate and racism or not. I am talking about a serious problem in the country i live in " i live in 2 Islamic countries", talking about my experience. Also, i didn't deny racism in other religions or countries, because i've never been there. Also, i didn't ask for interpretation of Quran to prove or deny the religious racism in it.

Regarding my family and my friends, i don't criticise their own Islamic practices and their beliefs & i don't judge them because of what they believe, honestly i don't care about anyone's believe " no matter what they believe in" because it is non of my business, but when their religious beliefs and religious practices limit and affect my life negatively, then i could easily consider that racism because they think they are the best and everyone else is wrong, either i should become like them, considered lower than them, apostate, socially isolated, insulted and some timed should be killed. I really don't understand how did you find racism in my topic??!!!

It is due to the tone of writings such as Quran, and the rhetorics of clerics and scholars in which people have faith.

Be well
Amenuel

Hello Man Of Faith,

It is become an ideology that really destroy the communities, the problem is that either they don't know about that or they know that and keep denying.

Salam,

I think in the original text, the context of the verse is in the past.

Regards,

Salam,

Even in traditional sources of Islamic history "which are the worst sources to search about the Islamic history", the islamic state "which was not an actual state with definite borders because there were the tribal rule system" Muhammad did not extend beyond The Arabian Peninsula. He sent messages to Kisra of Persia, but nothing more. If there was something like that, muslims would like to mention it proudly.

The wars against Persia were years later after Muhammad's death, when Omer Ibn Al Khattab was the caliph, he sent Amr Ibn Al A'as to start the wars. There is a Hadith which claimed to predict the " Fateh Faris" or victory in Persia and adding it to the Islamic caliphate state, which is possibly was claimed to make these wars more acceptable and under religions cover. All the wars till the "Fateh" were at the period of Umar's state.

Regards,

Hello,

"And it is He who subjected the sea for you to eat from it tender meat and to extract from it ornaments which you wear. And you see the ships plowing through it, and that you may seek of His bounty; and perhaps you will be grateful"

Another translation

"And He committed the sea to serve you; you eat from it tender meat, and extract jewelry which you wear. And you see the ships roaming it for your commercial benefits, as you seek His bounties, that you may be appreciative"

There is another verse which is talking about eating seafood is Halal, but the context of the verse is in "Hurom or Ihram". Since i don't have an approximate definition of the term "Hurom or Ihram" i can't use that verse for quotation.

Even meat should not be slaughtered by the traditional Islamic way. As far as i know, there is no any Quranic verse about this way in slaughter.

Regards,

Religion are man made and the ritual is of course man made.
You're right about "people deserve to know the truth" as exploitation through mass manipulation is a crime.

If after they're being told about the truth and they are willingly and happily like to be manipulated then it's their choice.

People flocked to "Organized Religion / Cult's Headquarter" in the past up until today with some (miraculous) hope, such as city of Rome, Constantinople / Istanbul, Jerusalem, Mount Girzim, Mount Olympus, Delphi and Mecca. Each have their own myth and legends associated to it.

Hello,

I totally agree with you, except the part of if religions are totally or partially man made, i am still confused about it and i am searching for the most convincing to me.

Salam,

Thanks Seekingthe truth.

I share your concerns. Hope you didn't miss my below comment in my last post

"HOWEVER, if anyone is exploiting the pilgrims to unduly extract extra money, it is a different issue altogether. That must be considered as sinful like any form of exploitation."

Regards,
Arman

Hello,

Indeed, i agree with you on that any one has the right to practice any rituals. In fact, all of us have some rituals "not necessarily religious rituals". peace

My main concern is in assuming their holiness and forcing others to accept their opinions and blindly follow them, and for sure the consequential exploitation. Exploitation in these cases is nastier than any thing else.

Regards,

Salam seekingthetruth.

Your original point was whether we believe one can get spiritual ?incentive? from visiting to a religious site (specifically Kabaa). To that point my answer, in a nutshell was, YES, it is possible that if one has faith in Kabaa as a symbol (Arabic Sha?aeer) of Allah, one can get primed to a mindset devoted to Allah by visiting Kabaa and it could help one to reflect upon one?s purpose and goal of life with devotion and seriousness.

Given we both agree on the above, you have raised a couple of different points in your reply, namely

1. If someone (e.g. ISIS) accepts killing in the name of Allah to be a sacred act, should it be acceptable.
2. Is the pilgrimage a financial burden on individual.
3. Is the pilgrimage a financial burden on a nation.

Let me briefly touch on each of these points

If someone accepts killing in the name of Allah to be a sacred act, should it be acceptable.

The first and foremost teaching of Islam ? the fundamental is ? we must reject all artificial deities and have faith in the One who is the Master (Creator and Sustainer) of the entire universe. Having ?Faith? in the Master of the entire universe implies accepting the right of all creations in the universe to be dealt with ?fairly?. Having ?Faith? in the Master of the entire universe implies upholding our God-gifted intellect and conscience. Having ?Faith? in the Master of the entire universe implies being grateful for the gift of life and accepting our responsibility to facilitate all creations in the best way possible as our inviolable obligation. Having ?Faith? in the Master of the entire universe implies being patient in the life of this world and remain convinced that God is the ultimate authority to ensure justice to the universe ? in this life or hereafter.

Now, whoever deviates from having faith in the Master of the entire universe and starts to worship an artifical deity projected out of a book / religion / clan / race and strives to get worldly gain (set up a state, khilafat, kingdom etc.) by following the leaders of the book / religion / clan / race as partner to God and thereby violate their God-gifted intellect and conscience ? have indeed deviated into a wide deviation. Their ritual, their devotion, their striving (jihad) is NOT in the path of God, but in the path of devil. It is not for God to forgive them, nor to guide them to a trail ? except the trail to hell, they be in it forever.

Is the pilgrimage a financial burden on individual.

The act of pilgrimage has always been recommended for those who are able. For those who are able, we do not question if going for higher education is financially burdensome or even going for a holiday abroad is financially burdensome ? but if someone tries to visit a place for spiritual solace and enrichment, immediately we start to become concerned about the financial burden?

HOWEVER, if anyone is exploiting the pilgrims to unduly extract extra money, it is a different issue altogether. That must be considered as sinful like any form of exploitation.

Is the pilgrimage a financial burden on a nation.

Arguably due to the pilgrimage the people at the site of the pilgrimage get some financial benefit. But to what extent? Let?s take a look at the information here

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings

Note

• Saudi Arabia (KSA) is not among the top 10 countries by number of annual tourist visit. France has #1 position with 84.7million visitors, while Thailand has # 10 position with 26.5 million visitors. Compared to these destinations KSA has 13.2 million annual visitor. Also note, very few of the top 10 tourist destination countries actually have any significant religious site (perhaps Italy being the exception).

• No ?Muslim? country is in the list of ?International tourism expenditure in 2013?. So, it seems a bit farfetched that ?Muslim? countries are spending too much money in Hajj and Umrah compared to what other countries are spending on various forms of tourism.

Given this data, do you still feel that ?religious tourism? in comparison to any other form of tourism is more of a money ?spender? in the global context? Most importantly there is no economic evidence that ?overseas tourism? harms the economy of a country; rather most economists would argue that international travel and tourism facilitates and boosts economic activity in general.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Salam Arman,

Yes, i talked about my personal experience because at that time, i did not have any other purpose for it except spirituality, then i asked about your opinions in general about Umrah because i became suspecious about it.

Thank you for your input and these data. KSA with its current situation, has no other way to attract this number of tourists. For other islamic countries, talking about my own country, it is one way of tens ways to exploit people under under a religious cover. Why would people should accept being fooled by religious ritual even if the economic cost not a big deal "as you've said"? If these rituals are similar with other religions, they might be man made. I think people deserve to know the truth and not being exploited. Even if it is only a penny.

Regards,

Nice! Now substitute Hajj for movies!

As long as i do not make watching movies (Hajj, Ramadan, salat) something that
make me better than others, nor making it a ticket to heaven so people feel guilty
for not watching movies (Observing Hajj, Ramadan, salat) even if they can't, nor
making it the 5th pillar of Islam nor making it a way to become forgiven and after
that, resumption of doing bad things that i used to do before, it is ok to watch
movies make (Hajj, Ramadan, salat) as long as i want. Otherwise, i have the
right to ask (You) "why?". )

God bless you

peace

Hello,

In traditional Islam, Hajj & Umrah apply to all of the above. So, if they have not islamic origin "or not from Allah", it would be just another religious deception in my opinion.

Pilgrimage in Buddhism includes Circumambulating around a buddhist temple 7 times, wearing 2 pieces of cloth similar to those of muslims in Hajj "sometimes in white ones" and they shave their heads. In past they used to circumambulate around the temple without wearing any clothes. Arabs also used to do that before Islam, but after Islam, they wear Ihram. Till now, very strict Monks tend to do Circumambulating while they are nude.

In Zoroastrian, there are 5 prayers a day, they have ablution before pray, which is washing face, hands and feet. Regarding Ramadan, i do not know about it yet.

I suggest that these rituals are humans needs, but not God's needs and they invented them to fulfil their own needs. That is why we see similarities in rituals between different religions. Unless you have another explanation hmm

Btw, i still pray, not because i feel this how i should worship Allah, but because of the pressure that i may face if people around me know about my new thinking. Putting people in pressure to perform some rituals is not like making them watching a movie.

God bless us all.

Agreed

People go to the movies and think it was a great experience, but if someone makes salat
or go on hajj which are acts of religious devotion, they are questioned, why?
because its all so personal as you have stated.

God bless you

peace

Hello,

As long as i do not make watching movies a something that make me better than others, nor making it a ticket to heaven so people feel guilty for not watching movies even if they can't, nor making it the 5th pillar of Islam nor making it a way to become forgiven and after that, resumption of doing bad things that i used to do before, it is ok to watch movies as long as i want. Otherwise, i have the right to ask "why?".

Salam,

Salam Seekingthetruth.

First of all... you may not have noticed, my comments were for the exercise of pilgrimage in general, not that of a specific religion.

But anyways, to address your specific question here... per my understanding it does not matter. If someone goes to Taj Mahal with the intention of appreciating Mughal architechture - he will get that appreciation from the visit. On the other hand if someone is going there to witness the product of exploitation of Mughal Emperor he will not be deprived either. The impact on individual's mind depends on each individuals personal mindset and intensions - the place / building has no magical property.

Similarly whether a visit to Kabaa would spiritually stimulate one would also depend solely on the individuals mental disposition towards the place - not any magical property of Kabaa. It's entire function is to serve as a "symbol". If one can have faith in it as a symbol of Allah, it will help him get "primed" - irrespective of its history; else it will merely be an obligatory visit.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Hello,

Sure it depends on the person's beliefs, but if we apply this understanding in things like Jihad "killing others in the name of Allah" in traditional Islam (e.g. ISIS) may be the the person will feel as if he is meeting the call of Allah and even consider it as a spiritual ritual. I know that Hajj and Umrah are not like killing and may have spiritual benefits for some people, but if i look from another perspective i can see how some governments make it a way to get more money from people, while some people are extremely poor and they struggle to collect its cost. This money which is spent annually on Hajj and Umrah could cause a change in poor countries or even someone's life. My country is very poor and i can see these things clearly and even more.

Is it really an islamic ritual? or it was a way to make people keep visiting Mecca for trading? or they just understand it like this according to their pagan background ? as it has benefits, it has disadvantages too, i can't just say exorcism is a cure for cancer, it may cure some people because of the placebo effect, but it is still not the real cure in this case.

Regards,

,

There may be updates to older posts which I have not written yet based on improved understanding.

Regarding the word hajj I think I still have the same understanding as when I last wrote about it though. However, the passages I have attempted translation on I could probably do better today.

I know there are quite some pages to browse through on this thread, so just take it carefully and do not hurry.

When I begun writing on this general topic I had the title phrase "Nearness and Guidance -> Knowledge and Wisdom = Peace and Prosperity" on my mind. A lot has been added to that since then, although I suppose I can say that the argument is still valid. Since then, my insight has grown several times. I do however still say that doing/being good is the essence of our faith albeit the belief argument has changed a little into what I call immersion. I do no longer deem that GOD expects people to believe, and that concept is open to abuse, but whoever realizes themselves in what is ALLAH (you can see another post from March 19 concerning what I say about the word ALLAH) will be eligible for "transition" (&#1577. By realization is meant to take on that spirit of mind and be together in ALLAH as the rest of people (angels, prophets, righteous people etc). I am working hard to prove that words like actually refer to such phenomena. This word means 'to realize' literally. I also say that is not a root but it is + i.e. the comes from the root and can be said being simply with a grammatical prefix attached to it to say be + of (thereof integrity). It is more talking about immersion than anything else like belief.

You may know that in Christianity people believe that (amen) means "may it be so" and their idea is not wrong at all. There probably used to be scholars who knew something. In the Biblical Gospels amen is amen (they have not translated it) and the text uses another word for faith/belief, so one can add to the suspicion that amen is not supposed to mean any of those two words. Jesus probably spoke Hebrew/Aramaic so the Biblical texts are more than likely derived from that language even if Greek was prominent due to the occupation influence. In the Gospels, amen is used in such a way that one can easily see it is meant to say "realize, realize" when Jesus says "amen amen I say to you". Another reason is because both Christians and Muslims say amen/amin after prayers and that is because they wish their prayer to be "realized". I have worked hard for perhaps a couple of years on the phenomenon of amen and I see a pattern and also in Arabic it does not refer to to belief/faith. You can believe/have faith and it is perhaps an advantage, but it is not really what GOD is expecting. You need to have faith that you can realize yourself too in whatever you venture into.

So with that knowledge and wisdom at hand, I would say for salvation (actually it says "transition&quot according to Qur'an the people have to realize themselves in ALLAH (BE THAT IT IS) by "BISMILLAH ALRAHMAN ALRAHEEM", i.e. "with the spirit of 'THAT IS' Benevolent, Merciful', and every other typical trait of GOD there is. If GOD is something then others are supposed to attain the same image. Jesus was not out bicycling (Swedish saying) or misquoted when he said "I am in the Father and the Father is in me". That is the way he willed to show but people, particularly the clergy, got extremely upset by his words, since according to the sectarian dogma that is a clear blasphemy.

5116 in Qur'an is misrepresented; it is supposed to clear out the misconception that people have concerning Jesus being part of a trinity, i.e. separate from GOD rather than inside the realm (ALLAH). I worked hard today to clear it out. Jesus clears out what he said and he said that he made no distinction of his soul compared to that of ALLAH. He did the will of the Father in unity, just as everyone else righteous.

You have further signs from the Biblical "Old Testament" (Tanakh/Torateh) in that GOD said to Moses in response to his question "Who are you?" "I AM THAT AM I". This is a hint to the dynamics of the GOD phenomenon and this was perhaps a 4000 years ago approximately. Hence the real information on how GOD works has been with people for millennia yet the sects always blur what have been said with their traditional Pagan mindset. GOD said to Moses "Go you to the 'Children of Israel' and say 'I AM' has sent you". ALLAH and ELOH(IM) are third-person variants of what GOD said to Moses about the phenomenon.

The famous 'Ten Commandments' say "do not make an image of anything in Heaven or Earth to worship". This commandment is part of the revelation about the dynamics of the GOD phenomenon to the 'Children of Israel' and it explicitly means "NO IMAGE" (even if the image is called ALLAH) and it includes a materialized view of GOD as an entity at all and goes along with the 'I AM THAT AM I' statement. Actually our mind is some severe case of schizophrenia rotfl

I mean we pray to 'The Rabb' and this is an authentic practice, but in truth in ways we pray to ourselves since our 'Rabb' is not separate from us. That means if we pray to the 'Rabb' and treat 'The Rabb' as some sort of slave/secretary that will do all the hard work for us as long as we "worship", then nothing will become realized. The sectarians are not aware of this. 'The Rabb' word could also be regarded as Jesus puts it "Father", because it is something that will foster us (you can check Lane's for the root to see the idea).

Jews regard 'Rabbi' as teacher and 'The Rabb' is like your foster parent. You see that before you can understand this lesson you have to separate the spirit from the flesh because this is absolutely disconnected from jinn world and thus the usual Father - Son concept does not work the same. You see all Jesus taught about the Father - Son stuff were merely parables. Jesus never implied that he was some separate beastly Son of GOD. His best utterance to clear that out was the famous "I am in the Father and the Father in me". If we can find the spirit (by being able to subdue our beastly self) and "tune in" then we can gain "The Rabb" as our Father, this is what Jesus basically tries to convey. It is a kind of complicated (to explain) symbiotic condition. Anyway, it relates to a part in 'Genesis' where the text says that GOD created man in its image". Well, it is true, but that is the goal to be, i.e. in the image of GOD.

As you can see, what the disciples wrote about Jesus is not a pack of lies after all but are fairly much according to the truth. It is mostly mistranslation causing problems and one has to understand what he meant.

Salaam

Thank you so much for this deep and intersting post, i like the way you connect things together to get a bigger picture. Your insight make Islam more spiritual than traditional one"which is merely stric practices and rituals you say and do so and so & you would be forgiven for all what you've done" , which i think it is the most important aspect of Islam that has lost nowadays, even in sufi sects, which is purely spiritual , you find idolizing of people "preachers" or graves "mausoleum" .

I agree with you about if believing would affect our fate in hereafter or not, i do not think God has created us to remind him of his glory only, our mission here is much bigger than that. My vision is still blurring but i am still searching about it. Your insight here is very helpful.

Regarding "" and the story of Jesus or the concept of "i am in Allah and Allah is in me" , it is great input to clarify these meanings. I always thought that when a person reaches this condition and unconsciously say "i am in God and God in me", i thought it is a psychological state occurs as result of certain psychological practices " e.g. in Sufism or Buddhist". Your input make it well elaborated for me.

I found some opinions that consider that there are many Rabbs, and Allah is the greatest Rabb, it was confusing for me at first till i read this verse more carefully

"What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" He replied "I am better than he; you created me from fire and him from clay"
712

How could Satan simply arguing with God if he was the greatest? and in this verse also

"He said, "O Iblees, what prevented you from prostrating to that which I created with My hands? Were you arrogant , or were you among the haughty?" He said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."
3875-76

Regardless of the nature of the satan or the actual story , you can see that even in this verse there is an argument with God. May be there are another meanings for these verses, but if it with this meaning, i can't imagine that this argument is with Allah.

Regards,

Seekingthetruth,

Khatam is to cause an impression or effect upon something. It is important to notice that in the alleged "seal of prophets" it says like impression/effect of insightful ones. You can check something like Lane's for this. It is usually all but the traditional interpretation for words which are right so it is quite easy to figure it out. It may also refer to a sort of outer coating like protective layer so it could be a circle like circle/group of nabi. In chapter two it says khatam on their hearts but it may as well be an affection on their hearts.

I do not see any distinction between rasuul or nabi. They are simply different words for a different purpose in the context about the same kind of people. Rasuul is a beacon, like someone showing the way and nabi refers to insight. It requires insight to successfully lead the way so I do not isolate each case individually. Messenger is a bit too narrow word for rasuul because they teach a whole consciousness.

Salaam

Hello,

The word "khatam" could have all these meanings, so how did you choose this exact meaning in this verse?

Salam,

Yes God can do anything, like

11.12. IS IT, then, conceivable that thou couldst omit any part of what is being revealed unto thee because thy heart is distressed at their saying, "Why has not a treasure been bestowed upon him from on high?" -or, " an angel come with him?" thou art only a warner, whereas God has everything in His care.

2.118. AND those who are devoid of knowledge say, "Why does God not speak unto us, nor is a sign shown to us?" Even thus, like unto what they, say, spoke those who lived before their time their hearts are all alike. Indeed, We have made all the signs manifest unto people who are endowed with inner certainty.

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Yes, God can fulfill all our conditions and demands. He can, but He does not. It is our loss if we behave like spoilt brats. He is the one who sets conditions and demands. Not us. And yes, it is our loss if we miss a prophet, and a very significant one at that.

You say you you will try to live with that, and poor you. Fine with me, I do not get a percentages on this.

And what is it to do to believe with being woman or feminist? I am both but it is not relevant. Do you think males would need less than women to believe in porphets and in Maryam's prophethood? Might be they need it more. Only I thought, because of life experiences which are exclusive of women, a woman is in better position to get the message, though, of course, what is logic is not always true.

66.12. And Maryam the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into her of Our spirit; and she confirmed the words of her Lord and His Books, and was one of the devout (servants).

21.91. And (remember) her who guarded her chastity We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.

There is plenty on this question, but just have you verified that every single male considered as prophet in the Qur'an has right beside his name also de denomination of prophet? I do not think it is so, although I am not going to verify it becuse to me that is not a need, but if it is it for somebody then it might be better to verify.

And yes, it is the loss of those who do not believe in Maryam's prophethood. So it is. I don't mind repeating it. She has a message, she has a mission, she is a sign from God confrims His scriptures, and God sends the prophets for our benefit, not for some holding of titles or degrees that get them honour from men. They are a rahma for the peoples, so yes, it is our loss if we fail to appreciate their message nd warnings.

May God bless them all and make us benefit from their devotion.

Salaam

Salam,

All what i can say is I do not assume things just because they are compatible with my principles or they are what i want to believe in " assuming things which are based merely on feelings" and i hope that you do the same.

Salam,

Man of Faith,

Also there is a meaning of "", which means "" or impure milk, it also means unfaithful.

Salam,

Salaam,

To just discuss a little what I wrote in the previous post about the DIFFERENT (root) words and before I address your new question.

Both words need an external agent, given by context or reflexive within the word such in the full word to form an substantiated object noun albeit this one has also need for reference from the context of application. in Quran refers to all the moral lessons it teaches, the spiritual guidance and thus taught perception, whereas the root (without noun suffix) refers to give perception (guidance) to someone. This is the reason for the classical since it refers to a spiritual session with a person who can guide, i.e teach guidance.

If you do not believe me about you can always read Lane's Lexicon where the root has the meaning of follow something closely. This is the consequential effect when is applied to a subject. If you can perceive, then you know what to follow. It is simple logic.

The classical praying birds in Quran are not really praying but they are consciously following each other. There is a misconception because sectarians have wished to invent a meaning the word does not have. You see, the birds are following guidance, i.e. the leader bird in the formation. The same we humans are supposed to follow the guiding leader (GOD) and if we can guide others then we shall do so, but we must remember a blind man cannot guide another blind man. First you need to be able to know what the GOD phenomenon is and have yourself perception/guidance from GOD before you can guide your neighbor or otherwise you fill the blind leading another blind parable (it is actually Jesus' parable).

If we move over to . This is what makes the soul whole ( refers to the completed state) and the adhesion letter is suggesting that it needs contextual reference. God's grace (&#1609 is something which is something like it, i.e giving consolation for the soul/mind (wholess).

I consider an erroneous scribe work. The right form is . It was only used to help with their idea of pronunciation.

I am also investigating about . I consider that there is a dog been put in a grave here (Swedish saying for when something is fishy). This word can only occur in plural according to traditional (women). I doubt the is supposed to be there originally. It is just a hoax to make it look like the alef is supposed to be independent to give a specific root, but it is fake. It is used to look down on you women. I consider it to be a form of . I have no clear answer at this time for but I am working. Most likely it refers to people who show spiritual potential and this is the theory I have right now. The ending in the word is supposed to be a grammatical function as is customary when a word has an ending alef (only). Can you give any suggestion what it may mean if means "spiritual integrity" taking your knowledge of Arabic by nativity?

Salaam

Hello Man of Faith,

I greatly appreciate your effort in explanation of things, thank you for that. I got the differences clearly. Praying birds made the meaning even more logical.

For the word "", i got back to Ala'in lexicon and i found these 2 words "" & "", with emphasized "" in "".

The word "" in general refers to anything that is later than other things within the same type or kind, for the man who is always do things later than others or the latest , the word would be "" and " " with emphasized "" in "". Another meaning is thrust or space, "" is the stick because people use it to thrust things from the way, "" is a noun which means paying late.

The word "" has this definition , to be i did not get the exact meaning, but it is explained further as quick going to get the water, it also means the fast inducing and the source for this meaning is "", its derivatives would be " " with emphasized "" in all of them. Human effort or labour would be "", the first "" is emphasized. The word " " means fast flying. For meat, if it is overcooked and its flavour has gone they say "" with emphasized "". The most related meaning to spirituality is " ", it refers to the remnants of the thing, originally used for the remnants of the soul, e.g. saying " " which means he is nothing but his remnants of his soul OR he has gone or ended except the remnants of his soul. This word is new to me so i tried to write as much as possible about it from the lexicon.

I also can remember the word "" or " " which means someone very familiar and intimate whith someone, or someone whose his company is happy, intimate, peaceful and reassured. It is from another lexicon.

This is regarding the Classic Arabic. In my dialect "sudanese" i can count some words that they may derived from "". The word "" means joyful or familiar conversation. A person who is easily could make familiar conversations with people may refer to "" with emphasized "". the word "" means rouse or provoke " a verb means talking to someone secretely to suborn him to do bad thing or do something against someone else or gossip". Women called "" or "". In Arabic gulf dialect, in general "" means "joyful time", also the word "" or Auns. This all what i can remeber for now, if i remembered another word i'll let you know about it.

Getting back to the word "", it could be a plural of woman "traditionaly" or a plural of "", "" or "". For "", it may have a of plural as in " " or fia'al. so if you apply this weight to "", you could get the plural "". I did not find in Ala'in lexicon yet. May be there are other roots which could be a single form of "", so far this is what i got.

Regards,

Salamun Alaikum.

There is no spirituality in any place, any book, any food or any dress. Spirituality only resides within one?s spirit. It is personal and internal.

However, rituals, books, dresses, pilgrimage all can potentially prime (See http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priming_(psychology)) an individual to a certain frame of mind. For example when we visit our childhood school we are often primed to feel nostalgic about our childhood; when we visit a monument dedicated to war memory, we are primed to evoke memory or reverence for the war.

Umrah (visit/pilgrimage) potentially has similar effect on those who associate the place of pilgrimage with spirituality. Whoever, can take this advantage has only himself to benefit from it. On the contrary, whoever fails to get any spiritual experience from a pilgrimage has only his own soul to account for why he went for that pilgrimage in the first place.

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Regards,
Arman

Hello,

Good point, but this is not the problem. The problem is what if this a wrong prime? Arabs before Muhammad, used to worship fetishes in this exact place, what if they invented this whole process because they felt nostalgic for their old practices?

Regards,