Oh, and nice ad hominem fallacy/attack at the end of your post.

Actually your quoted words above is ad hominem fallacy, and interestingly you do it by using the term "ad hominem" itself. ;D

Just read previous posts to see who attacked persons and who presented arguments.

Very interesting is that you all see your 262 interpretation as unquestionable, irrefutable absolute truth although it clearly contradicts with the whole message of AQ. Whenever someone disproves it, your reactions are like

No, 262 is pretty clear

No, because the minimum requirement for paradise is belief in God, the last day, and good deeds.

No, since anyone who believes in God and the herafter is following the Koran whether he knows it or not.

So according to you, to prove your 262 interpretation, your 262 interpretation itself is sufficient. D And nothing can change this, even the very clear words of Allah.

very interesting indeed.

Btw, please go and ask the author of the article, how he explains 5822. D

peace

By definition, a "muslim" (anyone who sumbits peacefully to God) is someone who believes in the Last Day. Moreover, a muslim is anyone who believes in God, the Last Day and does good work/reform.

then your definition contradicts with 4914 in which Allah says, those, into the hearts of whom belief has not yet entered should say 'We have submitted'.

For submission important is obeying Allah and His messenger (Mohammad).

You may or may not fully adopt the message, but it is in your hand to follow it (ie to maintain salat give zakat be rightous and never associate partners to Allah etc etc). It means obeying Allah and His messenger ie submitting.

For some people, belief comes together with submission, for others, belief follows. Anyway if you obey Allah and His messenger (Mohammad) that makes you a submitter. (or if you obey Allah and His messengers before apperance of Mohammad)

A momin (believer) is a submitter with belief in his heart as indicated in 4914

And verse 5822 makes one more point clear. Since christians and jews didnt obey Allah and His messenger (Mohammad),they can never be submitters but rejecters

5822 You will not find people who believe in GOD and the Last Day befriending those who oppose GOD and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their tribe. For these, He decrees faith into their hearts, and supports them with inspiration from Him, and admits them into gardens with flowing streams wherein they abide forever. GOD is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the party of GOD. Most assuredly, GOD's party are the winners.

As rejecting Mohammad and His Book is obviously nothing but opposing Allah and His messenger, christians and jews can never be people who believe in Allah and the Last Day according to 5822 (otherwise they would've never befriended themselves ), so it proves one more time that the 262-interpretetion of RK and his freaks is bs.

peace

Salam Aryan

I wonder how you interpret 5822 where the word wali isnt used (if Im wrong pls correct)

5822 You will not find people who believe in GOD and the Last Day befriending those who oppose GOD and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their tribe. For these, He decrees faith into their hearts, and supports them with inspiration from Him, and admits them into gardens with flowing streams wherein they abide forever. GOD is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the party of GOD. Most assuredly, GOD's party are the winners.

peace

Gee, this was an embarrassing, as you clearly did not understand anything I said. rotfl

Gee, this was an embarrassing, as you clearly did not understand anything I said. rotfl
;D

Afterall God allows us to marry them which is MUCH closer then friendship.

closer than a friend but not necessarily closer than a wali.

moreover notice what allowed in related verse is marriage with women of people of the book not with christian jewish women. all christians and jews are people of the book but all people of the book aren't christians and jews. there are both believers and disbelievers of people of the book. for example you cant marry a trinitarian woman otherwise you would violate the verse prohibiting marriages with mushriks, and from other verses such as 6010 we know Allah doesnt approve marriages between believers and disbelievers.. so the rest depends how one interprets related verses.

You know it "awliya" means "allies"

No, it doesnt, as far as I know. As we turks are muslims for many centuries, there are many arabic words in turkish and wali (veli) is one of them. so

friend= arkadas
wali= veli (pl veliler or evliya)
ally= muttefik (probably another arabic origin word)

an allience (ittifak in turkish) is a kind of agreement based on common benefits generally but not on trust, whereas a veli is your helper, protecter, trusted friend, a kind of comrade maybe and is more than a friend/acquaintance.

as for verses 551 601,8,9 557, the verses 551 and 557 give the instruction

551 do not take christians and jews as awliyaa
557 do not take disbelievers of the people of the book as awliyaa

(notice the verses does NOT say "do not take people of the book as awliyaa", since there are also believers of the people of the book. )

and the verses 601,8,9 give the explanation why such an instruction is given by Allah.

it is something like

instruction I prohibit you from eating the apples on the table
explanation because I dont want you to eat rotten apples.

so apparently the conclusion is not that we are prohibited from eating rotten apples on the table, but we are prohibited from eating the apples on the table since they are ALL rotten.

Similarly Allah prohibits muslims from taking christians and jews (disbelievers of the people of the book) as awliyaa since they potentially fight muslims because of their religion and evict them from their homes, just because their belief in God.

This is in fact one of the basic messages of AQ and also given in other verses in different ways such as

2120 Neither the Jews, nor the Christians, will accept you, unless you follow their religion. Say, "GOD's guidance is the true guidance." If you acquiesce to their wishes, despite the knowledge you have received, you will find no ally or supporter to help you against GOD.

Now, keeping my words in mind go and read 5822. You will easily understand it.

peace

Read this, we will see if you will still use the old fine tuned universe argument.
http//www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Fallacy/FTTech.pdf

to fully understand presented material I need to review and remember some old stuff, but I dont have so much time. Anyway, whether fine-tuning is truth or not doesnt make difference.. I know that findings of Physics so far interestingly support the arguments of theology. This is what matters.

As for your "irrefutable philosophical idea", it is perhaps due to my limited knowledge of philosophy but I dont find any meaning in saying baseless words in a showy way and then calling them irrefutable or so. You cant say things like if Allah is so then it is plausible to say something can be so. Allah is not something. He has no eqivalent and is indefinable. You cant compare undefined entity with anything.

You'd better frankly say your personal materialistic beliefs that unseen doesnt exist but matter(energy) etc etc,and science will somehow recognize this "fact" one day.

peace

It seems our freaks dont like discussing this issue D

"O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Nazarenes as "awliya", for they are allies to one another; and whoever takes them as such from amongst you is one of them. God does not guide the wicked people" (551)

If Allah did allow you to do it, could your stomach accept to take those close friends who reject ayats of Allah ?

I'd prefer HIV virus instead of christians and jews. at least it is not the worst creature (read 986)

peace

To say that ''God'' always was, is to say that the possibility of something always existing is philosophically correct and plausible.

maybe, but only if you leave physics aside. and u cant leave it. considering issues like increasing entrophy, fine tuned universe etc, your ever living energy doesnt seem to be the easiest solution D

my humble advice to you is to think twice before occam's razor is poked into ur ass. ;D

peace