This is the first time I have seen such an effort on one point of any book. A crucial point no doubt. Because of people like you we have less work and better understanding.

Thank you again.

Peace.

I just realize that there is not even a single word of "Allah" in the monotheist translation. . . claim to absoluteness. P

Search Box . . . Google

See, its a translation, not a transliteration.

7 years later, and I am still examining this )

When I initiated this thread, I lacked the (little bit of) knowledge of Arabic and grammar I needed to post the following question

I'm comparing two verses 272 and 1689. Translations vary, but I'm using corpus.quran.com to do a word-by-word analysis (Thanks Kais Dukes... wish you had time to finish the project).

Both verses are talking about (as I understand it) to whom the Quran is a guidance and glad tidings "believers" (2723) and "Muslims" (168924).

272 http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=27
1689 http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=16&verse=89

I didn't count, but browsing through these dozens of translations http//www.islamawakened.com/quran/16/89/default.htm, it looks like about as many people translated the word as didn't (e.g. "surrendered themselves to God" vs. "Muslims&quot

My question involves parts of speech.

For you knowledgeable classical Arabic grammarians, I'm hoping someone can explain exactly what the difference is between these two words whereby one has been labeled a noun ("believers&quot and the other a proper noun ("Muslims&quot as seen in the links.

Both words have been categorized (in the links) as "genitive masculine plural (form IV) active participle" / " ".

In summary Is there anything in the derived word "" that indicates that it is a proper noun instead of a noun, or is this just an opinion (much like the opinion of those who choose not to translate the word)? Or another way to ask the question, how does one recognize whether an Arabic word is a proper noun?

My suspicion is that this is not a question that is answered by the rules of grammar / morphology / lexical word-formation, but of societal convention (i.e. how are people choosing to use the word)... and I believe such conventions can change over time.

Maybe its my old age but I truly understand your statements here.

Brother, you may not get the answer that you expect.
Do you know how Christianity was born? Christians never called themselves Christians. It was others who called them Christians.
Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. ? Acts 1125-26

The word Christian repeats in Acts ? 2628 and 1 Peter 416. As you can see clearly, the word Christian is used by a third party to refer to followers of Christ. The more appropriate and original word is ?Nazarene? derived from the city Nazareth, or is it? Jesus is called the Nazarene (nazwraiou) in the bible as follows.

The even more appropriate name would be Muslim.
Nasara in Hebrew means "One who remains". One who stays or has submitted. Do you understand brother. Nasara. This is the Arabic word as well that refers to Christians in the Quran. Nasara in Arabic also is currently believed to mean Christian but how about the original meaning. It means one who follows, which is also akin to one who has submitted. Do you see? You have to have submitted yourself to follow someone or to remain with someone. Its the same as Islam or Muslim. The greek word for remain is emeinen and in various ways Jesus calls his disciples and followers those who remained. One word for this is Muslim. It is unfortunate that the NT has been written or converted into Greek though Jesus spoke Aramaic. If it stayed in the original text the word Nasara, Mushlam etc will be used heavily rather than a Greek using the word Nasara as if it is a proper name. Do you understand what I am saying.

Another. This is directly to a Muslim but you can take what you may.

The belief that Islam, Christianity and Judaism etc are different religions etc is a questionable theology. It is cited that Abraham called people Muslims.

?And strive in the cause of God its truly deserved striving. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the system, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you ?those who have submitted? (Muslimeen) from before and in this. So let the messenger be witness over you and you be witness over the people. So hold the contact prayer and contribute towards purification and hold tight to God, He is your patron. What an excellent Patron, and what an excellent Supporter.? - Qur?an
2278

See the following verses.

2111 And they said ?None shall enter the Paradise except those who are Jewish or "Nasara";? this is what they wish! Say ?Bring forth your proof if you are truthful.?

2112 No; whoever submits (Aslamu) himself to God, while doing good, he will have his recompense with his Lord. There will be no fear over them, nor will they grieve. (One who Aslamu is a Muslim)

2113 And the Jews say ?The "Nasara" have no basis,? and the "Nasara" say ?The Jews have no basis,? while they are both reciting the Book! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.

Thus it is evident that Christians (Nasara) and Jews also can submit (One who submits is a Muslim) to God will be saved and God will judge between them. It is not for us to judge. Which indicates that one who submits or Aslamu is a Muslim and even one who calls himself Nasara also can be a Muslim.

2135 And they said ?Be Jewish or Nasara so that you may be guided!? Say ?No, rather the creed of Abraham, monotheism; for he was not of the polytheists.?

2136 Say ?We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make a distinction between any of them and to Him we submit.?

We are required to tell those call themselves Jewish or Nazarenes that Millat Ibrahim or the creed or religion of Abraham will save us all. See, there was only one prophet called Muhammed born in Arabia but Muslims are divided into various sects. Shia, Sunni, Wahabbi etc. But what ever the division you call yourselves of, you are a segment of Islam. Same way if we believe that Islam or submission was the only system authorised by God, whatever name we call ourselves is just a concocted name, the origin is Islam. Thus, Christianity is a segment of Islam.

But Christians and Jews etc are clearly differentiated from the Mumeens(Or mostly translated as Mumeens).

367 Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Nasara, but he was a monotheist who submitted; he was not of the polytheists.
368 The most legitimate people to Abraham are those who followed him; and this prophet, and those who believed (Amanu); and God is the supporter of the believers.

As you can see, if Abraham himself was a Muslim and he called his followers Muslim as said in the Quran, Amanu or believers are differentiated from them and called one of the legitimate people. There is a clear difference between a Muslim and an Amanu or one who has submitted and a believer. This is where the real difference between Christian, Jews and Mumeens is. Muslim is more generic.

Thus, when the Quran says that Islam is the only religion or system, you actually dont have to be one who in current context calls himself a Muslim.

385 And whoever follows other than submission (Islam) as a system, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.

See if Ahlil Kithab are clearly a different entity from Muslims, how can they be told that it will not be accepted from him while in so many other places the Quran says that people of the book can attain salvation.

Muslim and Mumeens are clearly differentiated.

Which translation(s) do you recommend ?

I am no part of this at all but I still recommend the Free Minds translation.

But mostly I recommend those who reason from the Quran and not extra Quranic ideologies. See if you have a concept that developed through the years and are born into it, you find it difficult to disbelieve it. Thus when you translate the Quran, you try to keep your preconceived concepts in tact by blindly misinterpreting the Quran. There are many examples, but you can do your own research.

Peace.

Many here reject the label Quranist?? Anyone who rejects labels are following the Quran better than those who do, and those who label others.

The biggest problem of those who read the Quran and call themselves by any name is that they think the Quranic verses about those who go to hell, Kafirs, Polytheists or what ever you may read of, they all refer to others. Nope, judge yourself.

Make sure you are not one of those the Quran calls hellbound. Others, you wouldn't know. You would never know because you do not know whats between their minds and God. Can quote Quran but I opted out.

I have a copy of translation. I'd be glad if you could give examples. I consider it among the best translations of the Quran....a lot of thought and analysis went into translating it...and it would be apparent if you read the introduction.

No translation is perfect though...it's all interpretation....but the important thing is to choose a meaning which blends well with the context and the overall message of the book.

One example is his promotion of marrying slaves. Islam is against slavery. Okay, Ill cut and paste a part of a book I wrote.

No slavery in Islam
Most readers would find it astonishing to hear that slavery still exists in the modern world. Though the practice was abolished officially it is still very much alive. According to a study done by the International Labour Organisation the estimated number of slaves has increased from 12.3 million to 30 million since 2005. Slavery is not declining, in fact it is increasing.
Defining slavery
Humans used, sold or bought as a commodity or property
Imprisoned or kept by force with no freedom of movement
Forced to work via some form of threat
Forcefully acquired or owned by a master or employer, abused or under threat of abuse.
Slavery has been officially abolished since 1981 and the world at large, including some Muslims believe that Islam does propagate slavery. It is an erroneous view as you will find the Quran telling us that slaves are to be set free as a repenting act for a sin or crime you commit. If a billion Muslims follow the Quranic teachings and seek to set a slave free to redeem themselves, 30 Million slaves might see a hope of freedom. Many do find it silly to discuss slavery but slavery is very much alive, it is in the increase and needs attention. The ILO goes to the length of quoting 90$ as the average cost of a slave.
Freeing a slave is defined as a fundamental pillar of piety in the Quran. Muslims currently believe in a theology called the five pillars of Islam.

1. Faith
2. Prayer
3. Zakath or charity
4. Fasting
5. Performing the Haj pilgrimage at least once in your lifetime
   60
   The above five pillars are not a formula found in the Quran. The Quran contradicts this.
   Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but pious is one who
   believes in God and the Last Day,
   and the angels,
   and the Book,
   and the prophets,
   and who gives money out of love to the relatives,
   and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and those who ask,
   and to free the slaves;
   and who upholds prayer,
   and who contributes towards purification;
   and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge,
   and those who are patient in the face of hardship and adversity and when in despair.
   These are the ones who have been truthful, and these are the righteous. ? Quran 2177
   Very directly and clearly the Quran gives a formula to live by, which if someone has an argument against is imprudent.
   As you can see, freeing slaves is part of a Muslims creed.
   Quran verse 492 says that if you kill someone by mistake (e.g. Motor Accident), you must free a slave and compensate the family. Compensating the family is for their wellbeing, freeing a slave is for your salvation. Imagine every Muslim in the world seeking to free a slave in case of an accidental death.
   Verse 589 ordains you to free a slave in case you had broken an oath or a promise. If you owe someone money and you break the promise of return, if and when you repent, it is not enough just to return that money. You must free a slave as an act of repentance.
   960 gives you freeing a slave as a duty amongst charity and relieving those in debt.
   The Quran articulates in this manner
   ?Do you know which the better path is?
   o The freeing of slaves.
   o Or the feeding on a day of great hardship.
   o An orphan of relation.
   o Or a poor person in need.?
   Quran 9012-16
   Islam is against slavery, contrary to popular belief and is a solution, not a problem.

M.A.S. Abdel Haleem

This is not meant as offensive, but there are too many shortcomings in this translations. Too many.

I believe Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed.
But it's not wrong we understand it with another tools, since Quran's language is special in format.

Peace

You must measure the cloth with the "Yardstick". Not the other way around. Quran, the Furqan, is the yardstick. Everything else, I mean everything, is the cloth.

Whats the translation you use?

Hi

Could someone explain something about the verse quoted (Generally out of context) that promotes polygamy. Just one point for now.

Who said this verse refers to men only. What if the master who has orphans under their protection is a woman? Is the Quran promoting lesbian marriages?

? O people, be aware of your Lord who has created you from one person and He created from it its mate and sent forth from it many men and many women; and be aware of God whom you ask about, and the relatives. God is Watcher over you.
? And give the orphans (Alyatama) their money, and do not replace the good with the bad, and do not consume their money with your money; for truly this is a great sin!

Where does it say "Men"?

peace, brothers and sisters,

After a lot of research into 434 of The Quran and the meaning of DaRaBa, I have finally finished a 1st draft of my study

Please take your time to review it, as it is over 40 pages in length. There are a few minor points within it that still need verified/clarified, these are in purple font. As a side note, it was a very interesting journey completing this work, something which I did not initially intend to write, but as my discoveries mounted up, it soon became something that I simply had to write and publish.

All feedback is welcome, especially any corrections.

Once it has been reviewed, a dedicated site and promotional tools will accompany it.

EDIT above link does not work now, website is www.Quran434.com

Good effort and good work Wakas. Probably the most comprehensive analysis of a single topic I have seen.

Allah does not mean God.

Instead, its THE GOD. Or THE DEITY.

Also, 10/3 is not a good example for infinity at all. 0/0 is. Also, any number divided by zero.

God does not need a mathematical definition. What is that? He cannot be defined. Whats with the infinity which is nothing but a division. You cannot come to infinity by multiplying something unless you multiply with infinity itself. Even Zero is not quantifiable.

Why should any sanity allow us to find GOOD HADITH when we have the BEST HADITH.

Quran 3923

Do not approach prayer while intoxicated says the Quran. If alcohol is prohibited, like pigs meat, the Quran would not say this quote. As a prohibition that's a sin to consume at all, are only four things as explicitly stated in the Quran.

Peace.

Major problem for someone who thinks in English. I remember a long debate on the plural reference to God as well. Elohim (Pluralis Majestatis). Arabic, Hebrew, Tamil, Sinhalese... An uncountable number of languages has this. English doesnt.

You cant call God, "it". Empathise with the language of concern, not look through the keyhole of a glass door. That is height of stupidity.

salam samia. inshallah, if allah has consigned rejecters to jahannum and azaab, i support every decision of allah.

allah is the truth.

sure. Every one here calling ourselves muslims do the same.

However. you called others rejectors. Which shows that you have put yourself as Ilah.

la ilaha illallah

salam shohorabA and liquiddharma. substantiate your claims that believing women are not required to cover themselves with verses from the quran.

allah exposes all falsehood.

yes your Highness. I will try to abide.

Quran does not say not to cover yourself. I didnt say that "believing women are not required to cover themselves". I only said about the word Khimar and that it doesnt mean head cover.

Khimar does not mean head cover. It means cover. Comprehensible???

the word khimar is from the syllables kmr. this does not mean head cover.

pls try taking an older chambers dictionary and look up the word pig. A pig is a swine. A pig is a pig. but in newer dictionaries the word is also mentioned as a slang for cop. THIS IS IN THE DICTIONARY.

Over time because of a word used and hacked to mean something what comes to mind when the word is mentioned changes.

What do you think the word "GAY" meant in the old poems. Gay colors, happy and gay etc.

Gay didnt mean homosexual but now when the word is mentioned we only think of homosexuality.

same way Khimaruhoonna as mentioned in the Quran does not mean head cover. it is very lately that it has been a controversial word that has been turned to mean head cover. people actually sell a head cover that is called a khimar. But it never meant head cover those days. a khimar is a cover. could be a table cover too.

draw a cover over your chest. not trying to be crude but maybe a proper Bra is necessary. Exposing the breast is not allowed in Islam. this is what god says in the Quran.

look at the word hijab. Everyone knows what hijab means in these modern times. this is one of the most conspired, talked about and penalised words in this world.

the Quran has the word Hijab but never uses it to mean a garment for females or a concept for women. never. but modern thinking will never accept it. even though it is mentioned in the Quran seven times to mean something else. Many who call themselves muslims will not accept it.

hijab is nothing to do with a concept or garment for ladies. khimar is not a head cover but a cover.

i didnt have any problems.

This is another reason why I believe yataamaa are not orphans. Usually a child who is abandoned by the mother and is living with his/her father is not vulnerable or rejected by the society.

The polygamy permission has nothing to do with the interest, or welfare, of adults. It's a permission to address the societal problem of a child who's rejected for not having a known father. Men are given the permission to marry such mothers so as to extend social protection to those yataamaa. No woman is needed to play this role, so no permission is extended to them.

Thank you very much. I believe you have given me a very insightful answer. Thanks again.