Peace all,

To Stranger 1990, can you convince me that Stoning to Death is God's Punishment for married person who commits Adultery.

And why do you think that when doing so, stoning to death, you are not violating God's Quranic Laws (i.e., Kaffer), and your are not associating with God what He did not reveal in Quran (i.e., Moshirk).
peace TWO Major Sins are committed by Sunni, just for Believing in Stoning to Death. Moshrik and Kaffer will have Eternal Life sentence in Hellfire.

a non-Married zani might have an excuse for his crime, but a married zani absolutely has no excuse.

let me ask you something, you know what happened to the people of Lut, but Liwat has no punishment in the Qur'an is it even logical that Allah want to punish zina but won't punish the worst Liwat? Allah says "his day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." how can he complete our religion without telling us about things like Liwat? or because his messenger already did.

Slakm all,

I think that when the verse was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad he should do explain to his companions if he didn't explain to them, then the verse must be interpreted in many segments, or it might be chaotic among the companions about the verses. On the other hand, his companions must asked the Prophet when their had got the questions about the clue of the verses. However, the practiced of the Prophet according to God revealed must be the best pattern of conduct and clear among the companions. I do believe that all the practiced of the prophet must be told and remembered by his companions and would be tradition for centuries after the Prophet passed away. In my opinion Imam Bukhari did a great job in collecting the prophetic traditions. I don?t believe all words of Bukhari, but I read the Qur-an and compared with Bukhari. I realized that when you read the book of Buhkari liken to read the historic book. We have been reading many books since we could read as; Scientific book, business book and etc. But some theories we can get and some we can deny. Allah Stated

"And We have sent down to you the Book with truth, authenticating what is present of the Book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute." (The Message 54

They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say 'In them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit.' And they ask you how much are they to give, Say 'The excess.' It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think." (The Message 2219)

Can you explain the underlined words?

the first Ayah talks about different religions with different books, he gave us different deens, he could create one religion but he made more then one with different sharia and sunnan but same message.

Jesus said to the Jews that he will allow some of which was forbidden on them in 350

And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.

the second Ayah talks about harm from them and benefits, the benefits are only benefits in this life, wining in gambling is beneficial for you, you could spend the money on your family the Alcohol would have health benefits, but these things does more harm then benefits so its forbidden.

On the contrary, I too have read ahadith similar to what you said, but NOT exactly like you said it. I want you to cite the specific hadith, so we can see if it says what you say. It really is quite a simple request.

Ok, I'll try to find it.

According to your sunni history, the Quran wasn't even compiled into a book during the time of the Prophet! Can you imagine the Prophet leaving the preservation of the Quran to CHANCE? He was told by Allah in Q 5/67

O Messenger! make reach which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission

Despite this clear declaration, you guys have said stuff like verse of the Quran have been FORGOTTEN due to being eaten by goats! Have a read of 'Introduction to the Sciences of the Quran' by Abu Ammar Yasir Qadhi. You guys have betrayed the Quran, im sorry to say.

What? there were many hafiz at the time of the Prophet so if a peace of Paper was lost that doesn't mean part of the Qur'an is lost Allah subhannahu wattalla says in Surah Alhijir so the Qur'an was never changed and it's protected by Allah himself, many sects in history tried to change it like Shia who wanted to add words like Imam and Ali but you know who stood in front of them? Ahlu alsunnah who already memorized the Qur'an in numbers.

Last question

is the lasting reference for true ISLAM, tafseer, or is it Alqur'aan itself?

You mean Adilah? it's the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet

When you are reading a tafseer, are you studying Alqur'aan, or are you studying tafseer?

I'm not studying AlQuran, studying AlQuran will need me to go and attend lectures to scholars and I'll need to spend serious amount of time studying the whole Qur'an

when I don't understand a verse or get confused I check the tafseer of Bin Kathir to understand it better.

This is a personal question which i'd like to ask you in public

Do you (try to) understand Arabic?

explain that question more please.

Is tafseer the same as Alqur'aan?

No, the Qur'an is the word of Allah. Tafseer is the word of man explaining the Qur'an.

Well firstly you need to read chapter 5 of the Quran and you will see clearly the Quran recognized three scriptures(Torah, Gospel and Quran) and recognized one faith, faith in God and judgement day. So I am not sure if a question like is Sunnism a wrong sect can be answered since Sunnis believe in God and the last day. But I will say many teachings of Sunni FIQH is against the teachings of the Quran and is more resembling to Bukhari and Muslim hadith sources.

Not all Quranist reject all hadiths, but no Quranist will accept it at the expense of the Quran which Sunni fiqh does in many occasion.

I think the biggest difference is in individual interpretation and application. Quranist generally see the Quran as an open Book for meveryone and interpretation and application is an individual's duty while Sunnis see the Quran as a Book to be recited and revered but not interpreted except by jurist and its application is also in the hands of jurist who rely almost exclusivesly on hadiths and consensus. They then believe they have the right to enforce that on people even through violence. Of course this means they need political support to have the power, which they do. Hence the Shariah law of theirs. Shariah law in the Quran is refering to the Torah and Gospel and Quran(read chapter 5).

So in the end its about individual freedom and responsibility. And this makes sense since we will in the end stand in front of God as individuals and each will be responsible for himself. This notion that Sunni and Shias have that they can force their doctrine over others is the reason why we have violence and oppression in the name of Islam like Sudan, Saudi and Taliban.

I do not accept trhe arguments some Quranist like Edip and others propagate about polytheism. I do not see Sunnism as polytheistic and I see nothing wrong with praising or elevating the status of Muhammad. However, we must do the same will ALL OF THE PROPHETS as the Quran says and not pick one and abrogate the others.

Which takes us to the most important argument that I believes seperates Quranist from Sunnis and that is abrogation. You can't be a Quranist and believe in abrogation because that means that the Quran is no longer a source of guidance and many of its verses are no longer relevant. Thats a crime against the Quran.

I also do not accept the abrogation of the pevious scriptures since I see the Quran seeing itself in equal footing with the previous scriptures. Once again read chapter 5.

Quranist therefore do not have an orthodoxy and a theocracy even if they wanted to. BUt I can not say that everything in Sunni Islam is false, but many things are, at least in comparing it with Quran.

I pointed out ayah 37 which is clearly states not anyone can interpret the Qur'an.

I also do not accept the abrogation of the pevious scriptures since I see the Quran seeing itself in equal footing with the previous scriptures. Once again read chapter 5.

Allah never commanded us to read the Torah or Gospel actually in many verses its clearly state that these books were edited.

So in the end its about individual freedom and responsibility. And this makes sense since we will in the end stand in front of God as individuals and each will be responsible for himself.

yeah everyone will stand in front of Allah as an individual but that doesn't mean everyone has an individual duty of making his own Sharia, actually many things are obligation on all people as a group instead of on individual alone.

For these who say includes Ridah (Apostasy)

or war of Apostasy is clear example that it's not ok for a Muslim to leave his faith after he believed.

Abu Bakkir fought these who refused the Zakkah and refused the deen after they accepted it, he didn't tell them

Yes, this is attested to by Quran itself

And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ

How do you go from 'teach' to 'interpret' ? Quran NEVER says to the prophet 'interpret' (afsiru).

His sayings THAT WERE REMEMBERED? You mean to tell me, this vital ingredient to understanding the Quran was left to chance? Is that why the ulema cant agree to who a sahaba is? Sir, you really need to come to reality. Have a read of Zubair Siddiqui's 'Hadith Literature' which is a classic in the field of hadith studies.
.

Yes and the word for 'people' is 'an-naas' which includes muslims. Since when have Muslims stopped becoming part of an-naas?

Because its not up for discussion. This thread was started and defined by you so lets stick to the topic at hand.

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.37

I'm sure the first who knows the Tawil of Qur'an is Allah then applies to Prophet Muhammad first (he sent him to teach them the Qur'an and it wisdom) then applies to the righteous Sahaba who spent a lot of time studying at his hand then applies to the people after them who studied at there hands.

you see not anyone can interpret the Qur'an and verses differ.

Also anyone who studies Quran without understanding Arabic is a bigger fool ;D Probably about 3/4 of the muslim population will fit into this criteria.

Peace

translations are like a very basic tafseer book, reading it is not studying it.

salam stranger1990,
I have a question, do Ahlu Alsunnah Waljammah perform salat the same way that prophet Muhammed PBUH did?

Yeah we try to.

Just to note, the myth of the 'Uthmani rasm' is contradicted by the Quran itself

1. 80/11-16 tells us that Quran was already in pages and spread far and wide

2. 15/1 tells us that Quran is a clear kitab/book.

If the Prophet and the sahaba knew of ayaat like these, would they allow Quran to be simply verbal or written on scraps of paper?

I don't see any contradiction, Uthmani is very clear for me.

Ahh, and that explains away the burning of hadith collections because......... ? Oh wait, it doesn't.

It is a pity you evade the points made, and continue to repeat what you have been told is true, without evidence.

But in any case, I'm interested in this comment of yours "he told them not to write what he says until they are finished of writing the whole Qur'an."
Specific evidence please?

I read that hadith long time ago but you'll say ah Muslim/Bukhari these are not evidents.

Those who follow The Quran alone are not a sect. In fact, sects have nothing to do with Muhammad and the teachings of God.

3103 Hold firmly to the rope of God, all of you, and do not be divided. Remember God's blessing upon you when you were enemies and He united your hearts, then you became, with His blessing, brothers; and you were on the verge of a pit of fire and He saved you from it. Thus, God clarifies for you His signs, so that you may be guided.

3105 Do not be like those who divided and differed after the proof had come to them. For them is a painful retribution.

6159 Those who have divided their obligation ("deen&quot and become sects, you have nothing to do with them. Their matter will be with God, then, He will inform them of what they had done.

Who authorized the title "Sunni"? Was it God?

2278 Strive in the cause of God properly. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the obligation ("deen&quot, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you 'the peaceful' ("al muslimeen&quot from before as well as in this. So let the messenger be witness over you and you be witness over people. So uphold the bond and bring forth the betterment and hold tight to God, He is your patron. What an excellent patron, and what an excellent supporter.

Muhammad was to follow Abraham. Also, please show us in The Quran where it says that we should follow the sunna/hadiths of Muhammad.

2530 The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have forsaken this reading (quran)."

the title sunni was only created to distinguish ourselves of all these sects that call themselves Muslims like Khwarij and Shia, we never called ourselves a new sect we believe we always the first, the only and true Islam. and no we haven't forsaken the Qur'an.

Teaching them doesn't mean giving them new information about it. He could have even given them ayaat which explains other ayaat.
he given them ayaat to explain others? what? he teach them Qur'an because they need him to teach them.

Al-hikmah is an aspect of Quran. 17/39 mentions teachings of al-hikmah taught in 17/22-38.

Yeah so Prophet Muhammad teach them not only one but many aspects of Qur'an which indicates that the quran is not interpret by anyone.

Ok, tell me how you access the teachings of 'Prophet Muhammad'?

His saying that were remembered then recorded then collected

Actually, ANYONE can believe or disbelieve as they like

10/99If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!

As for 2/256 which u quoted above, there are no conditions given in the ayah itself. Those conditions were imposed by your mufassireen.

this ayah talks about these who never believed in the first place if you notice at the end of it Allah asks his prophet if he really the one who force people to become believers.

why do you keep avoiding the question regarding your name?

Actually Bro Edip did wrote those questions by himself, so those are his own questions.

Well, if you don't want to be limited by the choices, you can answer anyway you want, btw. I am curious about how you will answer those questions. Would you?

When he rephrase the questions at that time I'll be happy to answer them.

Yes ? as stated...

24 and those who believe with what was descended to you?

It's clear who "to you" (God bless him) is referring, not present to teach anyone although the examples to follow are ...

12111 In their narration (stories there) had been an example to those of the pure minds/hearts (it) was not an information/speech to be fabricated and but confirmation (to) which (is) between his hands and detailing/explaining/clarifying every thing, and guidance, and mercy to (a) nation believing.

Peace

when I asked you if you're a deist or a Quranist you said a deist so I toke this as a none-Muslim.

This is why we must study the history to trace back what the one Islam is. That, and the Quran itself, which we believe is what has been revealed to The Prophet.

If you can't bring the proof it's alright. Just study the history for your own benefit. Please be careful when making statement on something as important as the "source of Islam".

and how you study it?

Pardon me but i'm not into your challenge. I'm only responding to this

ok

I took that word 'anyone' literally. So let's finish the rest of my response to you

What is Quranists, then? Do you know that "Quranists" may just be a label, a name? Are you accusing this "Quranists" of something you don't know? You didn't say "some of you". In fact, you didn't even say "Quranists" in that specific question -- in the beginning you said "anyone", remember?

why are you going off-topic a lot, the Thread's title is clear.

Then i'm the one who's talking about responsibility. Aren't we responsible for any belief we choose to believe in? What part of "LaA Ilaaha Illa Allah" do you not understand as a belief? I said the one that united us "best", and IMO, there is nothing better to unite muslimin than the belief "LaA Ilaaha Illa Allah".

it's not even an answer to the question.

I did say that and i will repeat it again Surely even the most bestest quranist scholar can't guide anyone. ALLAH guides whomever He will.

I know some names, but i don't see how it would benefit this discussion, so i wouldn't answer that. And you haven't clarified "all time" by the way, but forget about it.

My point is that you must verify for yourself anyone's (including scholars&#039 work on ISLAM against the Quran. If you intend to study their works then you may PM the mods for suggestions.

It's just a question, do you even have scholars or anyone interpret the Qur'an as he likes?

How would you "have enough knowledge in Islam", if you don't study Quran?

Yep that's the point and how you going to study the Qur'an without a teacher who already have enough knowledge to teach you Qur'an, Islam is like science.

The message in Quran, if translated correctly, will be understood by anyone with Hearing, Sight and Heart. Most verses regarding actions of believers are straightforward. However, there are also many cases when the Quran verses is translated inaccurately or taken out of context. That is why we need to study the Quran ourselves and strive in learning and discussion, instead of taking others' interpretation on the Quran as is. The ones who understand the Quranic Arabic have responsibility to explain to those who don't, and those who don't understand it must learn with his best effort and practice it. More understanding will be given after we practiced what we have previously understood.

The Qur'an is a book of guidance for these who already believed. Translations are not Qur'an and never will be, and anyone who thinks he will study Qur'an in English and will be a great scholar is a fool.