And the Quran did said that "There were nothing new here that hasn't been revealed before". (4143)

And I would agree with you that some who try to invent / derived a religion / sectarian culture based on the Quran is surely be at lost, as it will be yet another sectarian movement.

Salams

Well said.

I am afraid that those who have not understood the language properly are taking things too literally and some how they are treating Quran as if it was the first book of religion and it contains user guide for worship methods.
In fact Quran was the last book of religion. We need to accept the book as well as the methods that prophets taught us. Both entities have reached us through people.

Peace

Salat does not even translate to "prayer". That is dua`. Salat is making a bond with God.

Salams

How did you reach Salat = dua?
Quran was revealed in qureshi Arabic. We should take the same meaning as it stands in qureshi Arabic. We cannot draw our own meanings by looking at roots etc.
In qureshi Arabic the word salat means ritual worship. This is how the word was used then and this is how the word should be taken today as well. In fact that is exactly how the word is used today by almost all muslims.

Peace

12111 my friend. God outright says the Quran is a detailing OF EVERYTHING. Want to disagree? Complain to him then that he doesn't explain the "method" of prayer, method of hajj, etc.

Salams

Quran has reach us through the same 'crowd' as Sunnah (worship methods, not the hadees books).
How are we so sure that we have received the Quran from Muhammad then?
It is the same book which was accepted by all Muslims from day one. It has continued to be accepted likewise. Likewise is the case of Sunnah (worship methods).

The wording in verse 12111 is that the Qur'an is "tafsilalli kulli shai'in" (clarification about everything) does not mean that Quran was a clarification about everything in the universe or a clarification about every thing in the religion.
"It only means that it is a clarification for every religious matter where it was needed in the domain of guidance."

Hajj ritual is a good example.
Quran is silent about how, when, and where Hajj was to be done.
Had the Quran been an explanation of every religious matter, we would see a mention of Hajj beginning on 8th Dhul Hajj from Mina and so on.
However there is a complete silence in the Quran on the matter. Yet Muslim Ummah is completely unanimous about its rituals including dates and places. This is because Hajj was already being performed when the Qur'an was revealed.
Only a few deviations found their way in, which were pointed out in the Quran, because it was "an explanation of everything (necessary to be clarified in religion)."

The mistake of the people who say that the wording tafsilalli kulli shai'in means that Qur'an is an explanation of everything is that they do not understand Quranic language's style.
On numerous occasions Quran omits to mention words which it clearly implies.
Quran does so because such was the expectation of the intellectuals in a high quality Arabic text during the times when it was revealed.
Had Quran not done so, it would not have impressed the Arabs of that time. Arabs were its immediate addressees.
Unfortunately modern reader of the Qur'an is trained to appreciate a text which explicitly mentions everything intended, as in modern English and French, gives meanings to certain Quranic passages which were not intended by the Almighty.

Here are two examples

1. Quran says that "everything is floating in its orbit kullun fi falakin yasbahun" (3640).
   Of course, by everything the text means all the heavenly bodies that were being talked about.
   It would be non-sense to construe by everything in this text literally everything.
2. Quran says "All types of food were made halal for the Children of IsraeeI except for what Yaqub forbade for himself kullutta'amu kana hillal li Bani Isra'I'll illa ma harrama Isra'ilu 'ala nafsihi" (393).
   Of course, the verse does not mean every kind of food including impure food like swine etc
   The verse is conveying the fact that all kinds of pure food was made permissible for them except for what Yaqub, alaihissalam, forbade for himself.

Peace

But the Quran tells us or at least implies that Muhammad himself had no prior knowledge of the deen, at least not as understood by the previous prophets.

Even though that is not entirely true in my opinion, but lets say that is the case .... How does that prove that we need to derive the meaning of salat from Quran? People at that time knew the meaning of the terms like salat, hajj etc as this is very obvious from Quran otherwise Quran would have defined those terms. Quran was revealed in their language and it has used only those words that they knew. Prophet must have ironed out the practices, off course, with God's guidance.

The reason I said what you have written is not entirely true in my opinion is that the recorded history tells you that the prophet Mohammad used to say his hajj almost the same way as we do now before Quran was revealed. There were people at that time who used to say 5 prayers a day. Any ways this is just a recorded history. I am talking purely in terms of common sense. Quran is not a user guide of worship methods. It is more of a sermon to remind us why we are here.

Peace

The Hajj as it is understood today may (and most likely doesn't) have nothing to do with the mentioning of hajj in the Quran. After all it is a series of polytheistic practices which pagans of the past are known to have done.

I dont agree with you my friend here when you say the term hajj in Quran is totally different than the hajj of this era.
If you read history you will see that there were people at prophet's time who used to perform hajj the same way as we perform hajj now, before Quran was revealed.
You can say that Pagan practices were in place, however correct practices where there as well.
Similarly there were people who used to say 5 prayers a day even before Quran was revealed.
Again, I would not rule our prophets fixing the mistakes of their time in worship methods.

My bottom line concern is that we cannot reverse engineer the worship methods from Quran and turn a blind eye towards worship method already in place in the public. This goes against my common sense. Because Quran does not define worship methods. It is very obvious that Quran assumes that we already know what the terms mean.

Peace

Can you pls point out the salat method, fasting and hajj observation from the previous books since Quran is not to be study and follow exclusively.

I am not necessarily talking about books as such. All worship methods were known to people of that time. This is very obvious from Quran and this is what history says as well. I would not rule out the possibility of prophets ironing out any wrinkles in worship practices of their times. Bottom line is that worship methods have reached us through public, just like Quran. That is why Quran only refers to the terms but not define them. This is what common sense says and we are accountable for using our common sense.

Peace

Did I miss something?? Who on Free-Minds said you don't have to pray? ???

Free-minders are trying to derive the meaning of salat from Quran. While Quran did not define what salat is obviously because people knew what salat was.
I referred to salat as an example. The same is true for other worship methods as well. Free-minders are trying to derive from Quran what fasting is, what hajj is etc etc.

Peace

In my opinion - "God-Aloners" are not members of any sect. We're all just Muslims without a self-proclaimed leader to tells us what to think. Therefor we don't follow a specific agenda - other than the Quran. So if you're God-aloner you have every right to pray the "classic" way without being any different from all the other God-aloners, Quranic/Koranic Muslim, real Muslims or whatever y'all wanna identify yourselves as.
Some God-aloners don't even want to be labeled or have a title because they think it turns them into just another sect, and I agree.

Peace!

By God-Only-People I meant those who derive the whole religion from Quran. I know they dont want to be called Quran-Only-People. That is why I was using this term in respect.

Peace

i agree that salat is not some ritual prayer...
i think ones who agree have already talked about it here very much it should be clear by now but ok...

Yes that is what worries me because God-Only-Thinkers have given a new meaning to the word salat just because Quran does not describe this word and we refuse to take its meaning from the general usage of the term in crowd, as everything has to be understood solely from Quran.

My take is that worship methods are coming down to us from generation to generation through the crowd (just like Quran has reached us through people). Quran does not prohibit us to follow such worship methods and assumes that we are already aware of such rituals. God-Only-Thinkers have created difficulties by making Quran a sole source of rituals and have forgotten that Quran is the last book of guidance, not the first. Quran does not define the rituals that were already in place.

Peace
PS No, I dont think we can derive religion from hadees books, so dont get me wrong.

I watched that video. It is one of the common views, i.e. refers to an existing practice. The other common view is that prophet Muhammad purified it and taught it.

If it refers to an existing practice, it is highly likely there were several forms of prayer (what he calls salat) at the time, thus it is highly unlikely God would have been sanctioning a continuation of this practice, whatever the form. Thus the latter common view is more plausible.

The problem then of course is that The Quran says no such thing, and ALL information goes against salat=prayer. dua is prayer/petition.

This is one of the hardest things to accept when people switch to 'Quran based islam', and it takes time. Quite simply, I am not aware of any long term member who thinks salat=prayer (except perhaps progod and edip), but even they have differing views, i.e. no-traditional-form, some-traditional-form. But in any case, no-one, as far as I'm aware, who supports salat=prayer has ever been able to write a logical/coherent article on this and refute the points brought up. People can make of that what they will.

Peace all

Quran is revealed in the language of Qureshi people. All the words in Quran are used in the same context as Qureshi people would use them.

The meaning of the word salat should be understood the same way as it was understood by those people --> Salat = worship method.

What I dont understand is

Why do some thinkers at free-minds give some other meaning to the word salat. (By digging deep into dictionaries and roots etc).
Why do we think Quran would describe each word it has used? (Quran is not a dictionary) I dont see any description of salat method in Quran (yes I have read almost all articles where people are trying to derive salat method from Quran). If Qureshi already knew what salat is then why would Quran describe it. Quran is not the first book of religion. It is the last book.

God knows the best.

Salams All,

This is what I believe in

• Quran is the last book of guidance, not the first book. When Quran was revealed, "ways of prophets" were already in place. People already knew what salat is, what hajj is etc.
• Both "Quran" and worship methods have reached us through the crowd, from generation to generation.

Please note that I dont believe that religion has to do anything with Hadees books. So dont flag me as Hadees follower. Worship methods have reached us through "people" not through Hadees books.

I am amazed, really really amazed, how people at free-minds are engineering religion solely from Quran which is suppose to be the last book of God's religion, not the first book. There are debates ongoing for years on free-minds trying to settle how many salats are there and what salat really is, what Hajj is, how fasting should take place.

I invite all those who are deriving religion soley from Quran to consider the possibility that Quran did not define "prophets methods" that were already in place. Deriving religion from Quran is not going to lead you any where....

For example lets say if a messenger arrives today he is going to warn us by saying "say your salat 5 times a day". We already know what salat is. He is not going to say "Salat is this and this. Now you know what salat is. Say your salat 5 times day."

May God show us all the right path.

God knows the best

Peace every one.

In this short video Khalid Zaheer talks about why the method of salat is not there in Quran (at minute 5). Off course, he is not refering to hadees books.

http//khalidzaheer.com/video/16

It sounds convincing to me. More convincing than trying to find the salat method in Quran by twisting and turning meanings of Arabic words.

Any opinions?

Regards