This is a good topic. I will be back to read all posts here and put in my observations as well.

Salam all

alhamdulillah to be back. Layth thank you for resetting my password.

Now to the issue on masturbation.

You really can't find any verse that says in no uncertain tems that masturbation is forbidden, but we should be guided by al qur'an's 2187

2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to
approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and
you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray
your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you;
now you may approach them and seek what God has written for
you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct
from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast
until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in
the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress
them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people
who they may be righteous.

I'd like to draw your attention to the line "now you may approach them and seek what God has written for
you."

Isn't it clear and detailed enough that God wants us to approach our wife to seek what He has written for us?

Doesn't it breeds hypocrisy towards this verse (thus towards God) if one uses a condom, have sex with one's pregnant wife, have anal sex, and/or masturbate? Perhaps, I don't need to add having sex with animals because clearly sexual intercourse is for procreation. Masturbation does not serve procreation.

But what about those who are single? Let us hear and obey God

2432 And marry off those among you that are single, and the good
from among your male and female servants. If they are poor, then
God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing,
Knowledgeable.
2433 And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste
until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those who are
maintained by your oaths seek to consummate the marriage, then
document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give
them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you.
And do not force your young women to need if they have desired
to be independent, in order that you may make a gain in the goods
of this worldly life. And if anyone has compelled them, then for
their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.

I have underlined the line that matters.

Indeed, salat and patience is the key.

244 Do you exhort the people to do good, but forget yourselves, while
you are reciting the Book? Do you not comprehend?
245 And seek help through patience and through the salat.
It is a difficult thing, but not so for the humble.
246 The ones who conceive that they will meet their Lord and that to
Him they will return.

Ramon

peace all

yes. for fasting with difficulties we can always compensate for it.

thanks!

ramon O0

Selam aleykum everybody i am having some trouble with the ramadan of this year in the netherlands. the problem is that ramadan begins in the summer an it is getting pretty hot out here, but that is just a minor issue, the real problem is that the sun down is at 10.00 pm ja we cant eat until then and i think this sure not healty to not eat until 10 a clock. alot of people will gain wait and become ill because of this. I would like to now how you guys look at this issue and how it may be solved. or if you think that nit is not a problem at al and i am over reacting then you can also leave a comment with arguments.

Peace,

Ugur
sun

Salam Ugur, all

Welcome to the forum welcome welcome welcome and it is indeed a blessing to be here.

As for your concern, there is really no alternative to it except follow what is in the qur'an which is to fast until the night comes.

And the night is usually heralded by (below are translations from The Message 2.0)

676 When the night covered him, he saw a PLANET, and he said ?This is my Lord.? But when it disappeared he said ?I do not like those who disappear.?

860 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
861 By the heaven and the herald.
862 And do you know what the herald is?
863 The piercing star.
864 Every soul has a recorder over it.
865 So let man see from what he was created.
866 He was created from a water that spurts forth.
867 It comes out from between the spine and the testicles.
868 For He is able to bring him back.
869 The Day when all is revealed.
8610 Then he will not have any power or victor.
8611 And the sky which gives rain.
8612 And the land with cracks.
8613 This is the word that separates matters.
8614 And it is not a thing for amusement.
8615 They are planning a plan.
8616 And I am planning a plan.
8617 So respite the rejecters, respite them for a while.

If it is of any consolation, I start my fast here (Philippines) around 430 a.m. and end my fast by around 730 p.m. to 8 p.m. (of course still 2 hours earlier from the night there) since I travel from work to my house for more than 2 hours. And night here would be about 700 to 730 p.m. by the definition of it in the qu'ran.

Of course, the real problem would be in areas where there is no night at certain times of the year. If no full moon is seen after the summer solstice and no night arrives to signal the end of the fast, then I think people in that area are not obligated to fast as per 2185 (below is Ayman's translation)

2185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever WITNESSES the full-moon, let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.

May God increase our knowledge.

Alhamdulillah.

Ramon jedi

Salaam Ramon

This seems to be a good reading of the verse concerned.
The question remains if one sees the place of the sending down of the Koran - Arabia, as guiding for the timing of the -shahr ramadan- for the whole world, or does one accept a double timing-system.
The Koran was sent down during -shahr ramadan- on the Northern Hemisphere as far as we can know - so this might indicate the right timing.
The acceptance of a double timing-system would cause al lot of uncertainty for the millions of people living near the equator, when to abstain and when the -shahr haram- the restricted full moons would be.
Nowhere is stated in the Koran that from a certain geographical point the fasting and the restricted moons would be about half a year later.

salaam
truthseeker171

Salaam Truthseeker171 and all

For now my understanding is to take the Northern Hemisphere as the defining area to determine "what" summer solstice to follow. I believe that while God did not enjoin "anniversary" celebrations on the sending down of the qur'an; the sending down of the qur'an is indicative of where and when it occurred and what summer solstice we need to watch out for.

For now, our exhanges are better to attain certainty rather than follow traditional understandings which are way off qur'anic injunctions.

Again, may God increase our knowledge.

God bless everyone.

O0 Ramon

Salaam Ramon

Hereby some remarks related to your questions if I may.

A red moon is not everywhere at the same day in the whole hemisphere.
In the Northern countries there is even during mid-summer seldom a real red moon.
So it seems to be better to follow the place where the Koran was sent down as an objective criterium for the timing of the fasting.
The hottest period of the year in Arabia is related to the summersolstice - this might go together in that region with a red moon.
So the first full moon after the summersolstice on the Northern Hemisphere seems to be relevant, it can be known all over the word by moon-calendars.
In an allegorical way all the believers all over the world witness this -shahr ramadan-.
This is an objective issue not depending on a personal experience. Mind the millions of believers who would miss the red moon because of a clouded day.
So also the believers who do not see the red moon in person should fast the -shahr ramadan-.

God did not bring any hardship in the religion - verse 2278.
Verse 2184 states that the believers who are able to fast but do not fast should provide for the food of a poor person - this seems to imply that only the believers who are old enough to have a regular income and to engage into legal transactions - which is giving away money or food- should join the fast.
So your children are not obliged to fast, it seems.

Salaam and ramadan kareem.
truthseeker171

Salam truthseeker171 and all

Thank you for your response.

I have started fasting the day after June 26 after witnessing the full moon already above the horizon. Guess I have to wait for 2011 to see the reddish hue, God willing.

Your observation on "witnessing" is worth researching into because as of the moment my understanding is one has to see the full moon to be obligated to fast. Of course one can fast any time by God's leave. As a matter of fact in 2007 I fasted for 60 days with the intention of quitting smoking. Alhamdulillah I did it.

I thank you also for your observation on who can fast being one who has regular income and to engage in legal transactions. I'd like to caution you on this because other people may not have a regular income and engage in legal transactions but they are able to seek provisions (from God) for themselves, their family and other people (by way of charity). So I believe the best description is that the one who fast is "capable of seeking provisions for himself and others." So this necessarily exclude young children (although again no one should bar them if they wish to fast.)

Peace and thanks!

O0 Ramon

Peace brother Herbman,

The coming down of the great reading happened to be during the scorching full-moon, wherever that location was. Even within the northern hemisphere, the night rotates and at the exact point in Arabia when the great reading came down, it wasn't even night yet in other parts of the same northern hemisphere. The fasting is not tied to the great reading coming down. It is tied to witnessing of the scorching full-moon regardless of which point in the Northern or Southern hemisphere you are on. The great reading is not even coming down anymore.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace all.

I agree with this observation by Ayman.

Fasting is not tied to the sending down of the qur'an. The sending down of the qur'an is only one event that occured during these nights of fasting. God did not tell us to celebrate - like some sort of an anniversary -- the sending down of the qur'an through fasting. There is no such thing.

What is clear is that we fast when we witness "the shahr."

Ramon O0

Peace all

And yes I am on Facebook too http//www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1654630457. There is no need to hide identity now since what I have been doing is already known here; though I'd still maintain that I am a nobody, I can guide no one even the ones I love and that I continue to learn from God.

It just hit me that witnessing the full moon is enough marker to fast

From Ayman's translation

2185. "shahr ramadhan" is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses "al-shahr", let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.

Or is it?

Thanks,

Ramon O0

Peace Ayman, all.

Just for anything my email address is [email protected].

Thanks again.

jedi Ramon

Peace brother Mohamad, all,

Thank you Mohamad for your interesting post and for sharing your interesting theory. I will study it and reply soon. Right now I a have to rush because I am writing this from the Airport and my flight is going to be departing shortly.

Meanhwile, as requested by several members, I have summarized the findings on this thread in a new article. However, the article is in Arabic since I wanted to also test this understanding with Arabic speakers and interestingly, the arguments are much more compelling in Arabic

http//www.scribd.com/doc/30298535/%D9%85%D8%AA%D9%8A-%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%B1

I would be interested in feedback from Arabic speakers on the forum.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.

Peace Ayman, all.

Thank you for all your efforts. May God bless you.

Your understanding of the shahr ramadhan has certainly rubbed on me and that it has been about 4 to 5 years since I'm into this study. Your new article is surely something to look forward to reading. And although I'm not an arabic speaker I will take this as a sign that I should start learning into the language as well. Of course, we would appreciate this article to be in english by God's leave.

I am in the Philippines and a few minutes ago my son and I folded the world at the equator (0 degrees) and my country falls into the northern hemisphere but still close to the southern hemisphere.

Last year, I failed to witness the "scorching full moon" of July 7, 2009 since this is also the time that my daughter was born. It just missed my mind and apparently Satan's whisper was so strong that I'm unable to go out of the hospital to look at the moon. Tonight, June 26, 2010 is the "scorching full moon" here but I only got to see the moon at about close to 9 p.m. (today, June 26 2010 the moon should have risen at around 7 p.m. and with the eclipse running up to 845 p.m.) and I noticed the absence of the reddish hue already. Could it be because it has already risen up? Or could the absence of the reddish hue be due to our location in the hempishere?

This means that tonight I failed to see the moon rising up on the horizon as well as the eclipse. And this is my question Is it enough to see the full moon as a marker to fast? Or is it that we should be able to see the moon rising in its reddish glow to be able to say that we "witness" shahr ramadhan?" I have looked forward to this day since missing the shahr ramadhan in 2009 (the time I made the decision to fast) and the fasting but everything is God's will. There is always a reason for everything.

I would appreciate a response bro. It will help a lot in making the decision to fast tomorrow or not. By the way, my two sons (9 and 6 years old) and my daughter (7 years old) witnessed the full moon with me. Are they under any obligation to fast as well?

A response is really appreciated.

Peace.

Ramon jedi

Peace Sarah,

This thread is long as a result of attempts to refute the arguments on page 1 but instead unwillingly contributing to strengthening them and inadvertently creating the most detailed resource anywhere in the world on the issue of the timing according to the great reading. So the good arguments are on page 1 and if you can read between the lines then the rest is just the icing on the cake.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace all

Ayman,

Have you had the time to update your article on ramadan timing, taking into consideration the other points raised in this forum?

Thanks,

Ramon

peace and welcome sun

peace and welcome sun

peace and welcome sun

Peace all

I agree with the observations of Hati and drfazl.

BTW Hati, I sent you a pm.

Ramon

Peace all

I posted my query to know if we really have a basis for making the "counts" as those who espouse Code 19 want us to believe. I am on my own journey to understand whether there is or there is not a basis for Code 19.

Even before I start joining the "counting" bandwagon, I need to verify, among others, these three claims

1. Rashad Khalifa is the messenger of the covenant based on 381.
2. The "it" in 7430 refers to a sign concerning the quran, and consequently to the code 19.
3. The numbers (or symbols, whichever is applicable) of the chapters and verses were part of the revelation to Muhammad (please refer back to my inquiries).

If these three basic claims are not satisfied, then I really don't need to proceed with the counting as the counting has no basis to start with.

May God forgive me if I'm wrong, but my study has so far showed me that Rashad Khalifa is not the messenger of the covenant mentioned in 381. How can he confirm/authenticate what the prophets have and in turn they will acknowledge and support him? The same situation will arise even if the interpretation of 381 would be a messenger for every prophet.

Further, no matter how you read 7430 it always points back to saqar and the 19 angels guarding over it, and that the number or the count of 19 is not an ayat or sign but a fitna or a test/trial. So what is the basis of code 19 from this verse?

Now, I'm not really sure about the chapter or verse numbers, especially on whether they form part of the revelation to Muhammad or that they were later introduced into the quran for easy referencing. I'd like to ask the brothers and the sisters here who can recite the quran from memory. When you recite the quran do you think of the chapter and verse number(s) or do you just flow from one verse to another unmindful of these numbers? If the chapter and verse numbers are not needed in the RECITATION of the quran, then it could really have been introduced FOR EASY READING. In this case, counting 19s has no basis to start with.

The problem now is that this post/inquiry has been hijacked by conversations on the "counting" itself, so I expect this post to die a natural death. Nonetheless, I appreciate the responsive responses from some brothers. And I apologize for the late reply since I just shifted from a graveyard shift job to a day job. I have never seen beautiful sunrises for too long until now, alhamdulillah.

May God increase our knowledge.

Peace everyone,

ramon

The number of verses in the Arabic Qur'an are recorded after the title of the Surah, and the verses distinguished in the text by a small cypher or circle. The early readers of the Qur'an did not agree as to the original position of these circles, and so it happens that there are five different systems of numbering the verses

(a) Kufah verses. The Readers in the city of al-Kufah say that they followed the custom of 'Ali. Their way of reckoning is generally adopted in India. They reckon 6,239 verses.
(b) Basrah verses. The Readers of al-Basrah follow 'Asim ibn Hajjaj, a Companion. They reckon 6,204.
(c) Shami verses, The Readers in Syria (Shiim) followed 'Abdu 'lliih ibn 'Umar, a Companion. They reckon 6,225 verses.
(d) Makkah verses. According to this arrangement, there are 6,219 verses.
(e) Madinah verses. This way of reading contains 6,211 verses.

http//muslim-canada.org/quran_division.html

Peace all

Alhamdulillah after much searching (as I don't want to post the same question already posted here) I found the relevant post for my inquiry. I just wondered why this post did not prosper since 12/11/2007.

My questions are

1. Were the subdivision of chapters done by muhammad himself and is there proof in the quran?
   a) What method/system is used for chapter divisions? Do we have symbols or numbers?
2. Were the subdivision of the verses done by muhammad himself and is there proof in the quran?
   a) What method/system is used for verse divisions? Do we have symbols or numbers?

I pray that this topic will interest most of us here. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Ramon

...that the free-minds.org website represents or promotes a "Quranist" belief system? I've only recently become familiar with the term "Quranist" and with this website. This is my first post.

So if it's true, it's a relief on my part mainly because I'm curious to learn about Quranism.

If anyone could answer my question, it'd be much appreciated. Thanks.

peace & welcome stani,

i pray that we are not creating new sect(s) in this forum. as for me, i don't go with labels like quranism, quranist, quran aloners, etc.

i believe in God alone & i try very hard to follow all his commands as embodied in the confirming scripture the quran. how people try to box me into their convenient labels is something that i have to live with & to live by. God is enough as my witness on how i struggled to look for His straight path and God willing, i know i will succeed.

peace everyone.

ramon O0 jedi

In other words... you made this with your own opinion?

peace al araf,

yes, IT IS MY OPINION based on the word "confirm."

and may God forgive me if i am wrong...and that the sin is mine alone.

peace everyone.

ramon O0 jedi

Meaning...?

peace FAR,

Meaning that the post above is the one i replied to al araf.
Meaning that the quran cannot confirm what is not in it.
Meaning that what is not in the quran cannot be in the previous scriptures.
Meaning that following the quran alone is following the previous scriptures.

peace all.

ramon jedi O0