peace Z,

sorry for not being clear. What don't you understand about what I said?
look at the Genna and Gehanna thread.

Its not how you explained it, its that you couldn't explain it. And I kind of took your indifference on the issue as a sign that you didn't believe in it that strongly. If someone claims that the moe that we know in the hadiths isn't the same one that wrote/recieved the quran, that's a huge assumption that needs proof. It's not enough to say his personality doesn't fit, as I could say that under most muslim's translation of quran, his personality in hadith DOES fit.

Peace be with you Zantetsuken,

At first I thought you were asking me the question based on what you think 'islam' is. Even the possibility that you were asking it in an arrogant way if you consider yourself a 'muslim', like "what's stopping you from leaving?" meaning "there's the door, who needs you". Childish premature thinking on my part.
Well, I hope I clarified earlier that that was not my intention. Please, do not take my being blunt as arrogance... but I guess I'm a little biased. ;D (Thanks, OpenMind, for getting my back there ) )

When I said I'm considering leaving it, I meant that I would reach the conviction that the quran is not from a god, but from a psychedelic experience or something, because the arguments of sunni or progressives were just as flawed as christians basis of belief to me.

Honestly I was going to say I now have a renewed interest in philosophical quran thanks to you guys... until I read pheonix's last post...
Apologies in advance for my candor, but I believe in these 2 sentences is where your reasoning is flawed. You rely on others to define who you are. You let the sunnis, the progressives, the submitters, the extremists, the christians, the psychedelics, and even phoenix1, apparently, steer you into different directions, intentionally or otherwise. (Not that I totally disagree with phoenix's theory, but that's another story altogether) And that is where you will always lose, by following (or lack of) what others are saying, doing.

Note In the end, it will be between you and your Maker. It may be dissappointing to hear, but Phoenix will not be holding your hand at that moment.

Peace.

No problem, I was saying in my last post i realised your good intentions in that question. Thanks for pointing out to me that i rely on other's actions too much, but the reason for that is, my recent lack of faith has lead me to that,(that's also what lead to my lack of faith). What else does a non-believer have to compare to? I don't agree on what you said that I will lose by seeing what other's are saying/doing, that's all I have to compare.

Also, the reason I'm on the fine line between belief and non-belief, is because the tip of the scale depends on answering the crucial questions that i asked in my posts. Pheonix was the only one that addressed my question that, 'how could the prophet have meant the quran to mean these deep logic translations (e.g. hell is on earth, or god=truth) if you don't find any of this in hadith?' But his explanation didn't satisfy me. Can someone else please explain more or give a link to something that would address this botheration?

Some other questions were If anyone watches Benny Hinn or other prayer answering services, how do you explain that mushrik christians or mushrik muslims get their prayers answered equally as good if not better than quran-only muslims? Also I couldn't find a link, but if anyone heard about the study that people could manipulate random number generation by using their minds. This intentional flow of positive or negative energy could actually disprove all faiths, by showing that it's people, not a God, that can make 'miracles' or prophecies.

Alen I really appreciate your concern, it warms my heart. And I really hate to be one that bursts bubbles in return, but the quran used to help me too, anyone would feel at peace reading a book that tells them how they should live... if they believe in it. But I could be 100% wrong, I will continue to read the quran asking god to show me if I am wrong just in case.

Peace Zantetsuken,

i may leave islam for good

What's stopping you?
peace
Zenji is that a trick question lol? i dont know what you mean by islam anymore. I guess what's stopping me is fear that the sunnis are right all along, and only some of the hadiths are false...leading to my barbecue rendezvous after i die.

No, it's not a trick question at all. I just wanted to find out what the hesitation was all about. Or perhaps if you have left 'islam' already. Just curious. I thought maybe the part that was holding you back, needed contemplation. If you had made up your mind, then why the questions? Just 'leave'.

But then you said something, which I believe you need to ask yourself - "i dont know what you mean by islam anymore"! Remember, You're the one who said "I may leave islam soon"... not me. So whatever it means to you, maybe it's worth going back to the basics... what is islam?.. and how do you 'leave' it?

Peace be with you.

At first I thought you were asking me the question based on what you think 'islam' is. Even the possibility that you were asking it in an arrogant way if you consider yourself a 'muslim', like "what's stopping you from leaving?" meaning "there's the door, who needs you". Childish premature thinking on my part.

When I said I'm considering leaving it, I meant that I would reach the conviction that the quran is not from a god, but from a psychedelic experience or something, because the arguments of sunni or progressives were just as flawed as christians basis of belief to me.

Honestly I was going to say I now have a renewed interest in philosophical quran thanks to you guys... until I read pheonix's last post, which, no offense pheonix, I consider to be wishful thinking at it's finest. Do you know what is the possibility of your scenario being true?! The fraction is so small I wouldnt even write that many zeros. It's like you're proving Ali Sina's point, denial that the prophet could actually be that bad of a person, so you try and try to make a scenario were all this confusion could actually make sense in a good way. I'm sorry pheonix but I don't think you'll get alot of converts with that kind of argument. The burden of proof is on the believer's side, not the non-believers', and I haven't been able to proove it since I was born.

But then you are much more experienced in this forum than I am. I have been known for jumping to conclusions, please feel free to bitchslap me with your own reply.

peace

peace Z

I don't think Muhammad understood the Koran, he wrote it. Actually, I doubt the name of the author was Muhammad.
That doesn't matter, though. What matters is that we know the Koran is Muhammad's words. The words were INSPIRED by God, NOT written by God.
So whatever Muhammad wanted us to know is written in that book. Anything else we add to it's message is just an addition. No one would write an incomplete book, or teach an incomplete teaching.

whoa that hit me like an anvil. 'Mohammed' wrote it, didn't understand it, but his name wasn't really mohammed? So who was the guy who lived the life of the 'mohammed' of the hadiths? This is the first time i heard this, I didn't read the whole 'message book' from this website yet, would you provide a link to your belief on the subject of mohammed the author?

Zenji is that a trick question lol? i dont know what you mean by islam anymore. I guess what's stopping me is fear that the sunnis are right all along, and only some of the hadiths are false...leading to my barbecue rendezvous after i die.

humble thanks for the advice, i realise more everyday that im not even close to reaching a conclusion

My bad Pheonix, I assumed you were Saudi.

Guess I don't know as much as I thought I did, now I see what Einstein meant when he said he doesn't believe in 'a personal god', thanks for clearing that up for me guys.

OpenMind, does it seem obvious that I have an agenda? Thanks for pointing that out, I honestly couldnt tell, looks like my emotions and assumptions got the best of me.
edit or were u talking to Danish, I really enjoyed his post

As for appreciating the universe and also the quran. Even though I like you guys' philosophical view on the quran more than the traditional way...I still find it hard to believe that mohammed understood the quran in this deep way but you don't find not even one hadith of mohammed explaining it this way (only hadiths explaining it the taliban way).

I have the same problem with which understanding to choose. Just follow the one that you think is best. Verify everything.
and what about Mr. Einstein?
I used to live in Saudi Arabia. In Buraidah.

i meant him and most other scientists follow the truth but don't believe in a God -[

nice to finally meet a fellow saudi that isn't sunni, not anything against them, its just i couldn't imagine talking to a saudi about this without watching my mouth or offending him

Peace,

I understand you. For one, you have to understand that we have a shadow of 1000 years on us. People have fixed the Quranic message, and didn't allow any freethinking. This movement is young, it is not new, as there have always been Quran upholders. But most people have a sunni background which influences their approaches tremendously. Rashad proclaimed himself a messenger based on a dream and some personal interpretations. And his approach to the Quran was still with a sunni-mind. He interpretated the word salat only from one sunni view, this is also with hajj and even seeing islam as a religion. This is not his fault. It takes years and years to loose the framework of your past which influences your thinking. Rashad didn't had enough time to go beyond the already estabilished ideas on salaat, hajj and islam as a whole. He approached them from a sunni-framework and showed the Quran is complete based on the verses. But the sunni-shadow was still clouding his vision. So he was still a sunni using the Quran alone. Thsi created a lot of contradictions, which resulted in ideas as that the 'rituals' as salaat and hajj were preserved outside of the Quran. When doing exstencive research on these, which Rashad didn't had time for, we see this cannot be so, as these were made rituals over time and the original purpose was lost. The code is inside the Quran, the problem is only that people can not seperate the discovery from the discoverer.

As for the differences in approach, like i said, most people are still shedding their sunni-layers. This cannot be done in 2 years, this can take lifetimes. Persian, Christian and Jewish theology have twisted arabic meanings and the high tolerance of the early islamic rulers give gateways for these twisted meanings. We are playing Indiana Jones now, looking for the lost meanings. And when some are found, they will not be accepted by everybody, as some are still wrapped up in many sunni-layers. Also the level of evolution of somebodies mind determines the insight on a subject. Some people have the old view of a god needing worship, demanding rituals which have no real purpose to bring humankind to a higher level. But are only there to 'please' him, so they can attain 'heaven' in the next life. Accepting 'miracles' while at the same time promoting science for proof of the Quran, while after some hard research, it can be shown that these are just mistranslations on subjects, started by christians and persians in the middle ages.

You ask a valed question, the only problem is, you ask it to soon. You demand consensus in a time where we are still in the first part of our Indiana Jones movie. Be more patient, and research more for yourself. Buy classic arabic dictionaries, buy books from psychologist Jung, read Parwez and Shabbir, and every time choose the most logical option for you on that moment. We are created to evolve to a higher being, evolution hasn't stopped, but instead of evolution of the body, it is evolution of the soul. Have patience and research more yourself, you will be surprised how logical it all becomes over time...PM every time you want.

Please read some of these books also, they can clear up your mind a bit

Start with this one
http//tolueislam.com/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htm

And there are more of these, which are very important
http//tolueislam.com/Parwez/BA_Parwez.htm

and his translation and books are also very important to get a clearer view
http//www.ourbeacon.com/7101.html

And you can order a free dictionary of classic arabic to start with here, just answer the questions
www.laneslexicon.com

Please research yourself, take your time, we are only in the first 15 minutes of the movie....

nice point about the sunni thinking, I still have quite a bit. not sure if we have souls but you bet my next few years will have alot of research, and this website will stay on my favorties list.
im grateful for you all

Peace Zantetsuken,

1- Rashad certainly had some good points, but he wasn't that great of a person.
I'm not sure if God sends us messengers and prophets. I think everyone is born on this earth capable of becoming a messenger.
According to the quran, you have to verify everything. So everything Rashad said should've been verified by us before we followed it. We can take the good and leave out the bad.
And try looking at Islam not as a religion but a way of life or state of mind.

2- The problem with the hadith is that they came centuries after the Quran was written. They came when the Quran's teachings were already distorted by pagan and persian influences. The Quran says we should uphold SALAT (not prayer) TWICE a day. At dawn and dusk.
As for "obey God and His messenger..." I don't think it is referring to one person. There were and and are going to be countless messengers. So we are to obey God and the we should obey the people who carry God's message (the truth). If we don't obey those people, we aren't really obeying God, are we?

3- You are taking Islam as an organized religion. It's not. Islam is "doing good works." We don't need mosques, we don't need 1 superior interpretation (because if there is, people stop progressing, they think they know everything through this superior intepretation and no one questions it or looks beyond it.)
This forum is a battle of interpretations. But a lot of times, it's more of a discussion of interpretations. The Quran says we should look at all understandings and follow the best. And here you can see all different understandings and decide for yourself.

4-You are a follower of God if you are a follower of truth. Truth is always from God. And we have to search for the truth. We are all agnostics, because we don't have any knowledge of God, only God's signs. God's signs are everywhere. You just have to look for them.
About evolution, I accept that theory as true.
Everything is compatible with Islam if you verify it to be true.

BTW, you have already left Islam (the religion).
and where did you live in Saudi Arabia?

1- Isn't there some verses that say 'we sent ..mohammed or so and so' ? Guess I kind of expect anything to be sent from Him to not leave so many flaws, including rashad

2- That's a very good point and argument using those verses, the problem is maybe I'm too gullible, I'll believe you for that, then I would read another person's argument that there are really 5 prayers, or 3 and it would like equally make sense to me, but contradicting to each other. And it's like I ask God for help to understand, and either he doesn't want to help, or he wants to give everyone a huge headache by explaining to them different, one has to do 3, the other 5.

3- I see that too, I used to wonder why arabs don't do alot of university research. I like reading here because most people try to reduce bias, or maybe its bias in every direction that it reaches equlibrium P

4- That's a good way to think about it, but then there's mr. einstein. Riyadh is my 2nd home, but almost everyone there would hate me if i told them how i feel about all this

islam is a constant struggle or journey. many different belief structures have existed in islam throughout history, some have died while others have survived. as long as you believe in the Quran's truth and in God, then try to keep yourself in the fold of Islam and find your way. evolution is not against the Quran. Be careful of those claiming to be messengers, there is no point in any modern muslim making this claim no matter how intelligent or insightful. it is not against the quran to believe in 5 prayers as they exist today.. they can argue all they want about what may have been at the time of the prophet, but what is practiced today is not AGAINST the Quran.

as far as Christian's happiness, Islam does not say that non-Muslims will only have misfortune befall them. It says that there are other ways to accomplish temporary success in the world, but success in the hereafter is through Islam, which details a socio-politico-economic system in which all will enjoy true freedom and no one will subjugate another.

good luck

Different believe structures exist in sects everywhere, if i were christian i would replace quran in your 3rd sentance with bible and it would have the same meaning to me, but totally contradicting to each other at the time.
I didn't just refer to christian's happiness, but to how they get their 'prayers' answered, have you ever watched Benny Hinn? Criples can walk from being 'touched' by jesus, major illnesses cured. That's what makes this whole religion thing fishy to me, like it's really just an undiscovered part of the human body/mind that cures itself from enough faith in anything, like faith genes.
To add to that thought I recently saw a documentary about how people can actually disobey the laws the matter/nature if they don't believe in it enough, very amazing stuff. Also a study that shows that people could control randomly computer generated numbers by thinking about it hard enough. I'll post a link if I find them again.

May God bless us all,

My friend the hadiths are okay just mistranslated as was the quran.

I can?t understand why arabs can?t look at the Arabic words and see it though!

Why would God send a FALSE messenger (rashad), with the CORRECT revelation

Who said he was a messenger Br., and where does it say God sent him?

thank you all for your replies

hadiths aren't so ambiguous, the ones i mentioned are pretty clear. The one the that says theres gonna be 80 sects and only one will go to heaven is pretty clear too. There's no nice way to say it. and like I said, since all the sahaba prayed 5 at the time, I assume that's the correct sect that he was talking about.

I said God sent Rashad, because I meant God sends and knows the pre-actions of everyone. And Rashad was the one that sparked the whole anti-hadith movement, and was later proven to be deceitful by most

I apologize man, i shouldnt have replied under influence. I just thought I remember you mentioned hadiths last time so it seemed kind of ironic when i remembered the hadith that gold will be pourn into your ears for listening to music, it just gets me in a bad mood when i think of those, and people that pick and choose which hadith to believe based on what they want

Hello All

The soundtrack in this movie is great but sure will sound noisy to many, I actually don?t see it noisy at all, understanding Trance music is not easy by any mean, it took me about two years 15 years ago to understand it then I loved it and only listen to that sort of music for the last 13 years, I was going to use another track but as I was experimenting I found the one used is the best for the environment, I hope you enjoy it and at the sane time realize that Jahannam MUST be a physical place EXACLY as our God told us in the Quran

You Have Been Warned

Salam

That was hilarious dude, the cacodemons cracked me up, copyright infringement at it's finest (thumbs up). If this is the future of movies,count me in. Final boss from silent hill 3 would have been finishing touch. But isn't
music haram since you seem to express sunni views? and what do you mean it's hard to understand? my little sister listens to techno, two years damn..they would behead you in saudi for playing music with the quran

i have a similar theory of evolution which NEVER contradicts the quran. read (265) in the hadith story it has been stated that they died after 'three days' but i think that was the origin of primates )

Hi I'd like to hear more of your theory. How did this mark the beggining of the primates? They were humans before, then God erased humans on earth and allowed them to evolve back to humans eventually?

here's my story, sorry for lost post, I thought others here might feel same way

I was born in Saudi , went to a religious (sunni) private middle and high school. By the time I came to 11th and 12th grade in Texas, even though I didn?t pray 5 times like I should have, I was VERY judgmental of others, jealous and hateful towards any non-Muslim and was even considering joining some jihad group to get the easy way into heaven (according to hadith). No doubt this hate came from my schooling in Saudi, numerous examples floating in my head? my p.e. teacher would tell me to put my shirt inside out because it had US flag on it and I would obey and it consider it love from my teacher, my other teacher blaming any bad behavior from me on US influence. Not to mention corruption and deceit like the school tricking me into displaying my karate and English language in front of camera as if I learned it from that school and not from America earlier, but anyways.
Fast forward a few years of being a lazy miserable contradicting sunni. I was introduced to submission.org from a Yemeni friend. I immediately shunned at first when I noticed the condemning of hadith, but I kept looking back and slowly got interested and started to see what valid points Rashad had, this is when my mind first started to open(probably with the help of cannabis too). Then I believed in it STRONGLY for a little while, I felt as if every sunni was lost and I found the shining light, and started to feel a dedication to actually spread this message back in Saudi to my family, even if it meant humiliation or death.
So I studied online to try to gather my response to every argument against Mr. Khalifa, when I started to run across some valid arguments against Rashad. Which lead me to 19.org and Free-minds.org. I felt kind of tricked for believing so strongly what I did before, and started to imagine the possibility that maybe religion is in your head. After getting to the level of rational and knowledge of most of the people at free-minds.org by reading their posts, I couldn?t go back to the simple thinking of believing obviously FALSE hadiths. I started to think that islam is becoming a massive collection of complicated interpretation, complex logic and deep history, it isn?t even considered ?faith? anymore. What about people that can?t afford a computer to do all this research and experimentation? It kind of gives you an ugly feeling towards the word ?faith?, like ?ignorance?. Like all the Christians for example and their ?faith? in the Lord Jesus Christ, they FEEL him, he HEALS their illness, but he?s only a human that cant do that stuff after he?s dead , why would God give them the satisfaction being happy every day and answer their prayers (numerous examples) if they are doing the biggest no-no in Islam, Shirk? They ?feel God? equally as well as muslims do. The human body can do amazing things if it?s in enough harmony.
So here?s a list of main reasons why I can?t go back to being sunni or a ?progressive? muslim

Sunni
-you don?t have to go farther than look at hadith/sunni books trees telling muslims to kill jews(blanket statement at its finest), music and drawing strictly forbidden, almost anything fun strictly haram, celebrations of stoning and beheading instead of forgiveness, allowed to rape women during war, it makes me sick to go on, the world on the back of a bull etc. It seems that as common knowledge changes, sunnis selectively pick ones to delete to make islam look good.

Ok so why not accept the quran and not the hadith like my friends at free-minds.org?

Progressive
Here?s some logic for you

• Why would God send a FALSE messenger (rashad), with the CORRECT revelation (math miracle and denying hadith, etc.)? Seems like the ultimate contradiction to me, what kind of sick god would play with people?s minds like that. Remember the aya ?if it was from other than God, there would numerous contradictions?? Well I can name ALOT from islam or any other religion
• For those that say there is 3 prayers or no prayers and I still didn?t get an answer from when I asked this last time. How can hundreds of people during Mohammed?s time, all claim that he prayed 5 times and everyone prayed 5 times, (not just in the hadiths that order praying but as background in other hadiths, like ?I saw the prophet praying Asir and?..etc?), yet they weren?t supposed to? It?s not rational to say that they all were liars and there really are 3 prayers according to the quran from my own interpretation. But then as I say this, that would mean that hadith IS a required source of religious law since its so obvious that prayer is ambiguous in the quran but clearly ordered in the hadith. ?Obey Allah and obey the messenger? my friends, I don?t buy twisting that into applying only to people at that time.
• The forums are nothing but a constant battle of interpretations, every one has their own version of islam, until ya?ll agree on how islam should be, I can?t see progressive islam surviving or growing with such confusion and no direction, how are the mosques going to be? Each mosque express its own interpretation? That would only lead to more sects under progressive islam. And even if you agree, I probably wouldn?t be convinced that it was something amazing from God, but the product of human rational thinking. You can only twist the quran so many ways.

This argument hurts me in a way , I kind of feel guilty like I?m arguing against God, even though it?s probably my mind doing this to me. I really thought I would be the last person to not believe. I had plans of becoming a serious muslim as I got older. I still haven?t given up though, isn?t it the same for all agnostics? If there is a God, I hope he will give me a sign already and not lead all his wannabe followers into confusion (osama, bush,rashad,pat robberson, the jews, all think they got it figured out). All I know is I have never been so happy, honest, productive, caring for all types of people, knowledge seeking as the last few months I let go of islam.
On top of all this, after taking some biology classes, I?m seriously considering evolution, which of you think it?s compatible with islam and how? Sorry if I offended anyone, any other feedback would be appreciated.