Relationships
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Salam Taj, all,
I am with you except for the part where you say some friend knows.
To have one friend knowing about it is not enough. The whole place should know about the relationship, the more the better. Otherwise, one party would very possibly take advantage of the secrecy, and might have more partners at the same time, without anyone of them knowing about the other. I mean to say that secrecy opens wide the door of cheating.If someone wants to cheat, that person will cheat even if the whole town knows about the relationship by traveling out of town to another town/state/country etc. After all, it is what is in one's heart/soul and awareness of the God which really matters, as The God knows what is in our hearts/souls and He is aware of our actions.
2235 And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage to these women, or you keep it between yourselves. God knows that you will be thinking of them, but do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to say. And do not consummate the marriage until the required interim is reached in the Scripture. And know that God knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him, and know that God is Forgiving, Compassionate.
As far as "secrecy" is concerned, even if one person other than the parties meeting in secret knows about the meeting, it is not "secret" any more. I would agree, however, that most prudent would be to have as many people as possible know about the meeting, preferably from both sides of the engaged parties.
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jankren
Well lots of things don't bring about major or direct harm to anybody well depends what you consider harm?
AspeRin
It doesn't necessarily make you want to have sex.. though is zina just sex outside marriage? today you hear of all sorts of things or terms of sex, maybe they existed before i dunno like oral sex and anal.. does that include zina?
Yeh parents need to teach their children and educate them. though its hard these days everythings about sex about looking "sexy" bla bla bla.
Tanveer
So basically male and female relationships are limited to marriage (not that I'm against it) and that you shouldn't meet in secret if you have the intention of marrying them... You pretty much said it all with this verse
"1732 And do not come near adultery, for it is a sin and an evil path."Taj
Even if a friend knew of them meeting, from what I understood there is still limitations.
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Peace Sarah, all,
though is zina just sex outside marriage? today you hear of all sorts of things or terms of sex, maybe they existed before i dunno like oral sex and anal.. does that include zina?
According to Lane Lexicon, "zina" can mean "to mount/mounting upon a thing/fornication/adultery". In my opinion, that would include both anal and regular sexual intercourse. I am not sure if it would include oral sex. Oral sex, however, is still "fahisha"/lewdness which is also forbidden, and The God orders us not to come near "fahisha" also.
6151 Say "Come let me recite to you what your Lord has forbidden for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and be kind to your parents; and do not kill your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is plain of it/public or subtle/private; and do not kill the soul which God has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend."
Thus all "zina" is "fahisha" but all "fahisha" is not "zina".
This again brings me to what exactly is "zina" as defined per al-qur'aan.
In my understanding, the punishment of lashes for "zina" is ONLY when the act is witnessed by 4 or more people (244, 2413). Thus, under this definition, "zina" would be ANY sex witnessed by 4 or more people (pornography), and a legally married couple having sex in front of 4 or more people would incur the same punishment.
Thus for me, according to al-qur'aan, "zina" would be ANY sex witnessed by 4 or more people, and "fahisha" would include fornication and adultery which has no "human" punishment (if not witnessed by 4 or more people) but is still haram/forbidden.
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Salaam Tanweer
In my understanding, the punishment of lashes for "zina" is ONLY when the act is witnessed by 4 or more people (244, 2413). Thus, under this definition, "zina" would be ANY sex witnessed by 4 or more people (pornography), and a legally married couple having sex in front of 4 or more people would incur the same punishment.
Thus for me, according to al-qur'aan, "zina" would be ANY sex witnessed by 4 or more people, and "fahisha" would include fornication and adultery which has no "human" punishment (if not witnessed by 4 or more people) but is still haram/forbidden.I agree with you 100%, especially your underlined sentence. bravo
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Peace sister "Sarah" and "Samia",
I tend to disagree here confining "Zina" as being ony when 4 ppl have witnessed the act of sex expecially in a mariied couple. Infact you have it exactly the oppsite way around. Why in GOD's Name would there be a legal punishment if 4 ppl witnessed a married couple practicing sex in public? THIS IS A MORAL ISSUE. On the other hand non married couples only need to be witnessed by 4 ppl for the act to be punished coz GOD doesnt want them to be punshed without solid evidence NOT because of keeping the morals in public. Having sex outside of marriage or rather a legal comittment(i tend not to use the term marriage since it is more off a religious term) btw the couple that they will take the responsibilities in case any child comes out of tht bond and tht theyve certified tht non of them contains any harmful STDS which maybe passed on to each other. That is the main reason a punishment for adulterty exists at al IMHO, otherwise a legal punishment wldnt make any sense at all. GOD Bless! -
Salam.
It all depends how people view the relationship - boyfriend/grilfriend. If there are sexual intercourses, then yes, that is a sin, i agree with Tanveer here, meeting alone with someone you love, may cause you to slip, to forget and commit a sin that is otherwise easy to avoid.
Kissing is also wrong, if the two are not amrried because if you move that limit, it's only the question of time when you will remove the limit altogether.
Peace.
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PEace All
kissing or any other sexual contact would be considered a fahisha
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jonny_k from what you say it kinda is like what Tanveer is saying..
It's not confining zina, if you commit zina you commit it though if you have 4 witnesses then you get the punishment well you're supposed to. I don't think zina means sex, though in the context Tanveer explained then I guess that makes sense. Off course God is just so 4 witnesses could mean the "solid evidence". For each circumstance there are reasons, both within a marriage and outside a marriage they can be seen as moral issues.
So besides this, do you think befriending the opposite sex is ok, purely as "friends"?
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Peace Sarah, all,
Nowhere does Allah say that male believers cannot be friends with female believers.
973 And the believing men and women, they are allies/protectors to one another.
874 Those who have believed and emigrated and strived with their money and lives in the cause of God, and those who sheltered and supported; these are the allies/protectors of one another.
The word used here is "auliya" which is plural of "wali" which means ally, friend, protector, guardian. So believing men and women can be each others allies/protectors and thus friends, and can meet each other for righteous reasons.
The believers are not allowed to befriend those who oppose The God and His messenger
5822 You will not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day befriending those who oppose God and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their tribe.........
Believing men and women cannot be allies/protectors/friends with rejecters, idolaters, hypocrites etc. as they are all enemies of The God
602 O you who believe, do not take My enemy and your enemy as allies, you extend love to them, even though they have rejected the truth that has come to you.
329 Let not the believers take the rejecters as allies instead of the believers. And whoever does so will have nothing with God; for you are to be cautious of them as they deserve. And God warns you of Himself, and to God is the destiny.
4139 Those who take the rejecters as allies instead of the believers "Do they seek glory with them?" All glory belongs to God.
4144 O you who believe, do not take the rejecters as allies instead of the believers. Do you want God to have a reason against you?
In my opinion, believing men and women can be friends of each other and intermingle with each other provided the following conditions are met
- Lower your gaze and dress appropriately
2431 Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, for that is purer for them. God is fully aware of what you do.
2432 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not show-off their beauty except what is apparent, and let them cast their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not show-off their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their children that come after them, or those who are still their dependants, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.
3360 O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they should lengthen upon themselves their outer garments. That is better so that they would not be recognized and harmed. God is Forgiver, Merciful.- Righteous conversation
2234 And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage to these women, or you keep it between yourselves. God knows that you will be thinking of them, but do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to say.
- Be aware of Allah's presence
588 Do you not realise that God knows everything in the heavens and everything on Earth? No three people can meet secretly without Him being their fourth, nor five without Him being the sixth, nor less than that, nor more, without Him being there with them wherever they may be. Then, on the Day of Resurrection, He will inform them of everything they had done. God is fully aware of all things.
- Meet for righteousness and piety and avoid sin and transgression
5810 O you who believe, if you must meet secretly, then you shall not meet to commit sin, transgression, and to disobey the messenger. You shall meet to work righteousness and piety. And be aware of God, before whom you will be summoned.
- Avoid lewd, immoral or indecent acts including adultery/fornication
1733 And do not come near adultery, for it is a sin and an evil path.
2569 And those who do not call on any other god with God, nor do they kill the life that God has made forbidden except in justice, nor do they commit adultery; and whosoever does that will receive the punishment.
6013 O you prophet, if the believing women come to make allegiance to you that they will not set up anything beside God, nor steal, nor commit adultery, nor kill their unborn children, nor fabricate any falsehood, nor disobey you in any matter which is righteous, then you shall accept their allegiance, and ask God to forgive them. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
6153 Say "Come let me recite to you what your Lord has forbidden for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and be kind to your parents; and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is plain of it or subtle; and do not kill the soul which God has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend."
732 Say "My Lord has forbidden all lewd action, what is obvious from them and what is subtle, and sin, and aggression without cause
4235 And those who avoid gross sins and lewdness, and when they are angered, they forgive.
5332 They avoid major sins and lewdness, except for minor offencesIf all above conditions are met then IMO there is no prohibition on intermingling and friendship. Allah is Merciful and He will probably forgive minor offences (5332).
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Thanks all for that.. Jazak allahu kheirun
You see I had planned on organising a gatherings with Muslims both male and female.. Just something for us to do rather than watch TV or go on the internet all day though I had some people objecting saying thats "free mixing" that's haram bla bla bla.. BTW is there any term "free mixing" or the likes in the Quran?
So anyway people suggested separate the males from the females, or have different days.. but then I thought how do people expect to meet potential "partners" in a halal way if they don't even see each other.. I dunno to much culture has brainwashed people it's annoying.
Again I thank you all, God bless
Asalamu alaikum
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Ok so what's the limits?
What i was curious of is "zina" is it interpreted as adultery and fornication, or is there more to it than that?
For example intimate boyfriend girlfriend relationships, that don't necessary have any sexual intercourse..
Share your views and what you know
thanks for time
Salam
I only read you comment btw, here is my 2c
The Quran clearly allowed unmarried men and women to meet in secret BUT ONLY IF THERE WILL BE NO INDECENCY INVOLVED, in fact the men in siuch meetings are ordered to only talk to the woman in lawful manner ", but do not give them a promise in secret unless you speak in a lawful manner" 2235
this means any sexualy activity before marriage is nit allowed
Salam
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what's wrong with two people having sex?
or maybe I should ask, what is the difference between a married couple and an unmarried couple? (not rhetorical)
peace
I have said this over and over. The sex itself is not a problem at all. But the impacts could lead to problems.
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Thanks all for that.. Jazak allahu kheirun
You see I had planned on organising a gatherings with Muslims both male and female.. Just something for us to do rather than watch TV or go on the internet all day though I had some people objecting saying thats "free mixing" that's haram bla bla bla.. BTW is there any term "free mixing" or the likes in the Quran?
So anyway people suggested separate the males from the females, or have different days.. but then I thought how do people expect to meet potential "partners" in a halal way if they don't even see each other.. I dunno to much culture has brainwashed people it's annoying.
Again I thank you all, God bless
Asalamu alaikum
peace sister
that sounds lawfull,its perfectly ok,both muslim women and men gathering,the trouble can happen when its a one on one thing.
1 on 1 no good,everyone cool! P P Ppeace be with you
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Peace Sarah,
BTW is there any term "free mixing" or the likes in the Quran?
2458 O you who believe, let those who are committed to you by oath, and those who have not yet attained puberty, request your permission regarding three times before the Dawn Salat, and when you put off your attire from the noon time, and after the Evening Salat. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
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Asalamu alaikum )
2458 O you who believe, let those who are committed to you by oath, and those who have not yet attained puberty, request your permission regarding three times before the Dawn Salat, and when you put off your attire from the noon time, and after the Evening Salat. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
I'm not sure what it means by "when you put off your attire from the noon". Though inshallah I don't think it should be a problem barek allah fik, thanks for the info )