Hoors?!?
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Tay
Peace all,
Not to burst anyone's bubble, but considering how one can be in heaven while his body rots into the soil, who-what-when-where-how is sex even a discussion? Will the heavely be lingering around gardens eating grapes, drinking wine, and having 72 virgins feeding their lust, with the sound of milky waterfalls in the background? This sounds more like an episode of "Rome" than the result of a lifetime of good deeds and compassion
No you have not burst anyone's bubble.
There is no such a thing as 72 virgins mentioned in Quran.What then you think should be the result of a lifetime good deeds?? (that will be interesting to read).
Surah luqman
'Ma khalakakum wa ma basukum illa ka nafsin wahidin' -- your first creation and your second creation will be identical.Nice explanation by Mr. Tanveer.
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Peace raj-ah
Elke
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what kills me in this that women often put themselves down and accept this behaviour to dominate their lifes. A man should make love to a woman to share exactely this - love - and not to have a "unique experience". u're not a thingy made to be pleasurable to men. think about itOh! so here is the problem then, like most of us; slaves of our own thoughts. You think that this is sort of let down for women?
When a man and women have sex by will they both enjoy and have pleasure, and Quran is talking about both men and women, therefore no question arises of only one side having pleasure and other being a thingy.
Secondly let us consider that Hoors means beautiful women(only) then would you leave Islam??
Each and every thing made by Allah is well planned and systematic according to what I understand.In the part u quote i talk about life right here on earth and i don't believe u answer that. Sure sex can be pleasurable to both partners , but it clearly is not always - and i do not believe in sex in afterlife...
To ur question, if hoor was only beautiful woman and i was persuaded by this interpretation, i would not accept this islam, if not i'd be just another hypocrite ! But that wouldn't stop me from believing in godBoost
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A fruit? from what i know of "luxenberg" he doesn't believe the quran was written in arabic.
ShockedNeed not to say any more, if it is true. It is not understandable that if one agrees, that Allah offers grapes for some good deeds, then why not he can offer beautiful companions?
No, he never said quran was not written in arabic, but in obscure passages, he looked for syro-aram?ic influences in order to understand better. It is a possibilty and it fits in normal language evolution. Also i see the grapes as an allegory - just as i do not believe that we'll have sexual gravings, i do not believ that we'll have to eat the food on the other side. Now, this does not mean that i share luxenberg conclusion on quran being a "lost" christian lithurgy book.
elke
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Peace Elke, all,
he looked for syro-aram?ic influences in order to understand better. It is a possibilty and it fits in normal language evolution.
Aramaic and Nabataean are not an ancestor to Classical Arabic. Arabic descended from Safaitic. The Safaitic language is very similar to other North Arabian dialects such as Thamudic and Lihyanite. Once again, Arabic and all those languages are in the Southern Semitic branch (which includes Southern Arabic, Northern Arabic, and Ethiopic). This is a different class of languages than Aramaic and Nabataean, which are part of the Western Semitic branch.
The language family of Syriac and Pre-Qur'aanic Classical Arabic is as follows
WEST SEMITIC ----> Central Semitic ----> Northwest Semitic ----> Aramaic ----> Eastern Aramaic ----> SYRIAC
SOUTH SEMITIC ----> South Central Semitic ----> Safaitic ----> PRE-QUR'AANIC CLASSICAL ARABIC
Comparing "hoor" from Syriac to "hour" of Arabic would be similar to comparing "hour" from Arabic to "whore" of English !
Luxenberg actually doesn't say that "hour" should mean "grape" but he proposes that the Arabic "hour" should mean "white (grapes)" in al-qur'aan because it was likely from the Syriac word for "white", and thus translates it into "white (grapes), putting "grapes" in parenthesis, and translates "hour 3ain" into "white (grapes), (like) jewels (of crystal), putting "like" and "of crystal" into parenthesis thus forcing a meaning. His literal translation based on Syriac is actually "white jewel".
Thus if "hoor" means "white (grapes)" in Syriac, we cannot extrapolate that to Arabic. Usually if one language derives a word from another different language, the meaning remains the same in both languages. Thus the English word "kismet" is derived from the Arabic "qisma", and both have the same meaning. Other examples are "Arab", "caliph" etc.
Al-Qur'aan was revealed in the language of the people it was revealed to, to be understood according to the meanings of the words prevalent in the language of its people at that time, and not the meanings according to a language that was not even ancestor to Arabic.
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Peace all,
I just have a question in my mind. Could "hour 3ain" mean "pure springs (of water)" as proposed by brother Yaseen at the following link
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/hur.htm
Thus the relevant verses would be translated as follows
5572 Pure, confined in tents
5622 And pure/clear springs
4454 So it is, and We granted/gave them pure springs
5220 They recline on arranged furnishings, and We granted/gave them pure springs
3748 And with them are springs, close by/within close proximity
3749 Like crystal white, carefully guardedAs anyone can check, the meanings fit perfectly in the context of the above verses.
And don't worry ......... we still will have pure companions/mates !!
225 And give good news to those who believe and do good works that they will have estates with rivers flowing beneath. Every time they receive of its fruit, they Say "This is what we have been provisioned before," and they are given its likeness. And there they will have pure spouses, and in it they will abide.
457 And those who believe and do good, We will admit them to estates with rivers flowing beneath, eternally they abide therein, in it they will have pure spouses, and We will admit them to a vast shade.
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Peace raj-ah,
What then you think should be the result of a lifetime good deeds??
Eternal bliss, no fear, fatigue, boredom or grief, being bathed in the light of God's mercy and compassion, His infathomable love, and the removal of all negativity. That should be enough, no?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace all,
I just have a question in my mind. Could "hour 3ain" mean "pure springs (of water)" as proposed by brother Yaseen at the following link
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/hur.htm
As anyone can check, the meanings fit perfectly in the context of the above verses.
According to Ahmed, hoorin Aaeenin cannot mean ?pure springs?, because in Arabic the adjective is always placed after the noun.
Cf http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8627.30Peace
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Peace JM,
I would like to verify that from some authentic literary reference. Would you or anyone else happen to know of any ?
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Peace JM,
I would like to verify that from some authentic literary reference. Would you or anyone else happen to know of any ?
Another way would be to look for examples in alQuran.
Anyway, do 2 nouns together (hoor and ayn) make sense ? How would you translate it ? "pure women eyes/springs" ?Peace
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Peace JM,
Yes two nouns can be together like "lahm khinzeer"/meat of pig, or "hajj albayt"/debate of house. But if they are two nouns here then "hoorin 3ainin" meaning "companions pure of eyes" doesn't make any sense.
Grammar rules of classical Arabic were formulated much after revelation of al-qur'aan. There are a few so called "grammatical irregularities" in al-qur'aan where some phrases do not conform to the regular post-qur'aanic grammar rules. Could "hoorin 3ainin" be one of such phrases ?
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Peace JM,
Yes two nouns can be together like "lahm khinzeer"/meat of pig, or "hajj albayt"/debate of house. But if they are two nouns here then "hoorin 3ainin" meaning "companions pure of eyes" doesn't make any sense.
Grammar rules of classical Arabic were formulated much after revelation of al-qur'aan. There are a few so called "grammatical irregularities" in al-qur'aan where some phrases do not conform to the regular post-qur'aanic grammar rules. Could "hoorin 3ainin" be one of such phrases ?
There are a few questions we can try to answer.
What is the case ? nominative ? accusative ? gentitive ?
What is the number ? singular ? dual ? plural ?
What is the gender ? masculine ? feminine ?
What is the state ? indefinite ? definite ? construct ? -
Peace JM, all,
I just researched Lane Lexicon for other possible meanings of "3ain", and to my surprise I found that it can be an adjective too. Thus maybe it is an adjective of "hoorin" !
According to Lane Lexicon
3AIN Distinguished/appointed/assigned/beautiful/excellent/noble/human/present gift/real/eye/spring/water/tear
Thus "hoorin 3ainin" could be translated as "beautiful/noble/distinguished pure companions" or "appointed/assigned pure companions".
What does everyone think ?
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Elke wrote
In the part u quote i talk about life right here on earth and i don't believe u answer that. Sure sex can be pleasurable to both partners , but it clearly is not always - and i do not believe in sex in afterlife...
To ur question, if hoor was only beautiful woman and i was persuaded by this interpretation, i would not accept this islam, if not i'd be just another hypocrite ! But that wouldn't stop me from believing in godSee dear, Once i used to think exactly as you do; but it has changed now. In your posts I, Me, and ego are clearly depicted, I hope you won't mind, because i too am ready to accept any sort of criticisim by you or any.
You do not believe in sex after life..., It is you who donot believe in sex after life; you may be correct you may be wrong, but basing on assumption which is only 50% likely be to correct and you are ready to leave Islam, that says much about your submission to Allah.
Now let us see what does our Quran say about this, we are going to take translation quoted by Mr. Tanveer225 And give good news to those who believe and do good works that they will have estates with rivers flowing beneath. Every time they receive of its fruit, they Say "This is what we have been provisioned before," and they are given its likeness. And there they will have pure spouses, and in it they will abide.
457 And those who believe and do good, We will admit them to estates with rivers flowing beneath, eternally they abide therein, in it they will have pure spouses, and We will admit them to a vast shade.
Now dear Elke, what does these spouses do in after life, will they keep on staring at each other or will they have some sexual experience? (offcourse beside other factors)
Why do you think sex as a taboo in after life?
I will further explain it in next post. -
Tay wrote
Eternal bliss, no fear, fatigue, boredom or grief, being bathed in the light of God's mercy and compassion, His infathomable love, and the removal of all negativity. That should be enough, no?
Peace,
TayWell; I believe that some of the creation of Allah already exits, which enjoys all the chracteristics you have mentioned, but remember Human is above them all "Ashraf ul makhlooqat". Asking for best what is already for lesser makes no point.
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Peace raj-ah
and i'm not your dear, except may be deer (inside joke)
You do not believe in sex after life..., It is you who donot believe in sex after life; you may be correct you may be wrong, but basing on assumption which is only 50% likely be to correct and you are ready to leave Islam, that says much about your submission to Allah.
You're right in the first part of ur sentence (green) but not the second. Read my answer right i said ready to leave this islam, which means islam interpreted this way, which i already left actually and never managed to adhere to before anyway. See i'm frank with u and accept your criticism. As to my ego being clearly depicted - this is easy to say and i could tell u exactly the same. Or do u believe to be above ?
Now dear Elke, what does these spouses do in after life, will they keep on staring at each other or will they have some sexual experience? (offcourse beside other factors)
Why do you think sex as a taboo in after life?
I will further explain it in next post.I don't see sex as a taboo, i just do not believe it necessary. Explained it before. IMO we'll be spiritiual beings in the next life, and also no reproduction, no need for sex. May be though we'll do it like barbarella ? ;D
Elke
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Salaam all
The word is "3een", not "3ain". This expression "7uur 3een" is restricted to the quraan. It's not mentioned in any dictionary.
I believe that both words are adjectives to a missing word. Since verses of the quraan on paradise mention nature (rivers, fruits, trees..), it could be a description for these rivers which are pure and "abundant with water" (3een could be derived from the noun "3ain spring of water) 7uur 3een "rivers" pure and abundant with water.
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Salaam JM
because in Arabic the adjective is always placed after the noun.
I wouldn't say "always". There's what we call an "adjectival idafa", as in "rajulun jameelul wajhi; imra'atun jameelatul wajhi (beautiful face "m" and "f", but the adjective here, although describes the face, but it conforms with the characteristics of the person whose face is beautiful (gender, number...)
Another example is the case of a predicate preceding the subject as in jameelun wajhuhu (his face is beautiful) and jameelun wajhuha (her face is beautiful).
But I do not think either kind apply to the phrase (huurun 3een).
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Salaam all
The word is "3een", not "3ain". This expression "7uur 3een" is restricted to the quraan. It's not mentioned in any dictionary.
I believe that both words are adjectives to a missing word. Since verses of the quraan on paradise mention nature (rivers, fruits, trees..), it could be a description for these rivers which are pure and "abundant with water" (3een could be derived from the noun "3ain spring of water) 7uur 3een "rivers" pure and abundant with water.
Peace Samia,
Why do you think they are both adjectives?
And not both nouns for example ?Are there many missing words in the Quran?
peace