Relationships
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Peace sis "BOOST",
Peace bro Johnny k
hmm i never heard of a disease caused by anal sex. plz let me know if you know of any.
JK- Statistics have shown that homosexuality has indeed been the cause of many diseases including the spread of aids. By anal sex you have a much hgher chance of acquiring those plus the intestine has germs,e-coli, which are harmful if theyr passed into the blood stream and this can easily happen through friction.
i think homosexuality is made haram because it is perverted from the normal relations we should be having. Who said lesbianism is ok? homosexuality encompasses both male/male and female/female relationships.
JK- Yes i agree there are other factors but perversion and morality can not be the main issue since GOD wouldnt blow down and completely destroy Lot's people just becaue they were immoral. Makes no sense seeing also that Shuaibs ppl got a similar harsh punihsment coz those ppl did not weigh justly, just like many general stores are doing today by putting a tiny note(coz theyr forced by law) kilo/gram and actually the big bottle which is supposed to be cheaper per unit gram is more expensive. These cases came out recently in Germany. Its a trick because everyone now believes that if you buy more quantity youll have to pay less/unit. Thus we see that hs has to be violating human rights somehow. It has to be harmful for humanity and it is. Lesbianism is NOT condemned directly in the Quran and GOD never destroyed a lesbian society in the past so it must be a lesser if at all a crime against humanity. GOD Bless!
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Peace bro
brother, lesbianism is not haram!? think about what you're saying
AIDS is prevalent in the homosexual community because (and this is statistically proven) they have many many sexual partners ... far more than the average heterosexual person.
AIDS can just as easily be transmitted vaginally as well.
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Peace sis "BOOST",
Peace bro
brother, lesbianism is not haram!? think about what you're saying
JK- Yes 236 makes it clear that sex is only permitted with ones spouse and i believe this applies to both male and female so lesbianism is forbidden BUT it is not condemned as strongly as male homosexuality and i believe that is so because penile penetrations allow for much more diseases to spread then lesbian acts would.
AIDS is prevalent in the homosexual community because (and this is statistically proven) they have many many sexual partners ... far more than the average heterosexual person.
AIDS can just as easily be transmitted vaginally as well.
JK- Yes tht and because of penile penetration otherwise one could make the excus and say ok lets get married and fix ourselves to one male partner as a man which indeed gays are doing by claiming gay rights to marriage. So this cant be the only reason. This topic has been hotly debated on the forum.
GOD Bless! -
Peace Bro Johnny
JK- Yes tht and because of penile penetration otherwise one could make the excus and say ok lets get married and fix ourselves to one male partner as a man which indeed gays are doing by claiming gay rights to marriage. So this cant be the only reason. This topic has been hotly debated on the forum
i think you're mixing issues here. homosexuality is haram whether there is AIDS or not. so there is no excuse made for gays to get married. However, AIDS can't be the reason why anal sex would be forbidden in a male/female marriage. HIV is sexually transmitted, thru semen or blood - has nothing to do specifically with the anus. by that rationale, vaginal penetration should be haram too because it can cause a whole slue of STDs.
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Peace sis "BOOST",
I wasnt talking abt AIDS only. It aint the only prob with male HS. I was talking abt intestinal germs which can cause harm if they enter the blood stream. Please read my post carefully. 2ndly haram is not black and white. There are things which GOD condemned more strongly like shirk and others on a lesser level. GOD Bless! -
Peace all,
Guys and gals, lets get some facts straight before any further debates !
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There is no scientific evidence of existence of HIV o HIV, even if it exists (for which there is no scientific evidence), is most likely a harmless virus.
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There is no scientific evidence that HIV is the cause of AIDS o AIDS is not a "disease" but a "syndrome" due to multiple diseases. The cause of the syndrome called AIDS has been postulated to be weakening of the immune system due to combination of stress, multiple STD's, multiple sexual partners and multiple drug abuse.
Please see the following link for more info and try to study all the articles in that website in detail before jumping on me )
http//www.virusmyth.net/aids/
Also see the following video
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-266890172132861595&q=other+side+of+aids
- Transmission of STD's (including hepatitis, which everyone forgets), is higher to the recipient of penetration in anal sex than vaginal sex, because anal mucosa has simple columnar epithelium (single layer of columnar cells, which are more susceptible to breakdown) and vaginal mucosa has stratified squamous epithelium (multiple layers of squamous cells which makes vaginal wall more resistant to breakdown).
Bro Khizar,
Lesbianism is NOT condemned directly in the Quran
415 And those women who commit lewdness, you shall bring four witnesses over them from amongst you; if they bear witness, then you shall restrict them in the homes until death terminates their lives, or God makes for them a way out.
There are things which GOD condemned more strongly like shirk and others on a lesser level.
Agreed
5332 They avoid major sins and lewdness, except for minor offences. Your Lord is with vast forgiveness. He has been fully aware of you since He initiated you from the Earth, and while you were embryos in your mothers' wombs. Therefore, do not acclaim yourselves; He is fully aware of the righteous.
431 If you avoid the major sins that you are forbidden against, then We will cancel your existing sins and admit you to a generous entrance.
Sis Boost,
I think bro Tanveer was talking about oral sex being fahisha, he was talking about it outside of marriage ... bro Tanveer, put me in my place if i'm wrong D
Oral sex outside of marriage is obviously a fahisha
Inside the realm of marriage i don't think any kind of sexual act is haram, as long as it remains between the married couple.
Thank you for clarifying what I meant; I should have been more careful with the wording !!
The close examination of all the lawful sex verses seems to indicate that what you are saying may be right, especially when one researches the words "lamas" and "mas" used for lawful sexual contacts between married couples in al-qur'aan, meaning "touch/feel" (2236, 2237, 443, 583, 584). Thus it seems that it is left up to the married couple to decide what kind of "mas" or "lamas" they are comfortable with.
By the way, I have no right to put anyone in his/her place D
Sis lilyfleur,
WHO IS TANVEER TO MAKE THIS CALL
I am already in love with this attitude ) but you don't have to shout )
I think you misunderstood why sis Sarah said that. She said it because you had asked me a question (obviously based on a misunderstanding of my post due to the unclear wording) and she answered it. From what I have seen so far, Sarah thinks for herself quite well !
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peace
I apologize for "shouting". I've yet to meet many non-judgmental Muslims and find it increasingly frustrating. My Christian Grandmother used to say "ye without sin shall cast the first stone". Is there a Muslim saying that is similar in nature? I count myself lucky I guess that I was raised by Christians and taught so much about Jesus and love and forgiveness. And although it was the intelligence of the Koran that led me to Islam (@ 2 yrs ago), sometimes the constant splitting of atoms gives me a headache. And the condoning. I once was invited to a Muslim woman's home for a dinner with all Muslim women. I had been really sad and so looked forward to being in the company of these "wise" women. But instead of being made to feel welcomed there was a woman there who couldn't help from pointing out that I was wearing toe nail polish and how that "was not ok". Relax people, there are child molestors, rapists, murderers, starving people and more, waaay more important things to worry about. Guess it just disappointed me that here too, more serious issues aren't being addressed. I didn't mean to be so harsh.
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Peace lilyfleur,
Welcome to the forum welcome group
I apologize for forgetting my manners too. I should have welcomed you earlier, but better late than never !
Thank you for sharing some of your experiences. It would be an honor for us if you share your full story of how you found the true islam, in "how you came to God alone" thread, so others can benefit from it.
May The God guide us all to the straight path.
Regards and best wishes,
Tanveer
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As an Asian who still embraces Eastern culture I think sex outside marriage which could HELP to spread STD and lead to higher rate of teen pregnancy is not a trivial issue that can be equated with polished toe nails . But I will of course try to avoid being judgmental because I realize that we belong to different culture which mean we also have different views of things .
Speaking of Jesus's quote "ye without sin shall cast the first stone", I do not really quite understand. My guess is that he is speaking about hypocrisy. However is that mean for example that a father who used to be a crack addict has no right to tell his son not to do the same thing?
As for serious issues are not being addressed here, well you should explore the forum more often sis. The topics here always change quickly.
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Peace lilyfleur,
Guess it just disappointed me that here too, more serious issues aren't being addressed.
I guess jankren beat me to it, but feel free to use the search function. You will find that many serious issues have been extensively discussed in this forum.
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I agree partially with Lilyfluer
The amount of moralizing that we muslims seem to do with respect to pre-marital sex amazes me.
You have to understand the reason for its prohibition in the Quran in the first place. These had to do with
- STDs
- Unwanted pregnancies
- Responsiblity in caring for the children
All of these things can be mitigated through correct application of laws within society and by responsible behaviour as adults.
I think the key admonish in the Quran is against engaging in relationships with women in secret. I don't think there is anything wrong with a boyfriend and girlfriend type of relationships even if there is sexual intercourse. As long as it's open and acknowledged by ones family and friends and the consequences of pregnancy are borne by the responsible individuals, I'm not sure it's haram. "Those to whom you rightfully belong" can be interpreted as those to whom you've committed and they to you.
I come from a family where my parents had an arranged marriage and after 45 years it's painfully obvious that had they even gotten to know eachother for a year or so before hand they probably would've never gotten married. And even now they should be divorced but our culture doesn't permit it.
Prohibitions against pre-marital intercourse are primarily cultural, historic, and socio-biologically based. They have nothing to do with God or spirituality.
My .02
Raz
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I feel frustrated with people's minds, rather thoughts.
Lilyfluer
I won't label things as haram and halal, as past and present people have in today's islamic society.(though maybe in my view i'd see it as wrong, anyway I won't go there) The book is there accept as you wish by it. If with your great knowledge it is interpreted as ok for you then I say go and do what you feel is right based on your logic and understandings because I tell you what, I'm not here to dictact my views to anyone everyone has their own and forever people will have different opinions. Maybe I feel it's part of my duty to show you what I beleive is truths but yeh I'm not saying everything is black and white it lies down to the intepretation you decide to take. so I'm sorry I can't get you something that says something as such is untimately forbiddon.Thanks for your advice, alhamdulillah I think for myself. Tanveer answered my question he had knowledge on such issue which I happened to agree with, because I am not so well versed I thought maybe he could elaborate and make others understand as I'm not so great at it.
I'm no scholar, nor a learnered person but I believe it is up to you to make judgement of what is right and wrong, I mean why can we accept something as "ok" without having proof of it being ok, and just because traditionalist say it is wrong doesn't mean we automatically throw their perspectives in the bin, not all things they believe are based on hadith.
Anyway besides this I think if it brings good to you then it usually is good, if it brings bad to you you should avoid it if you're not sure, you should avoid it until you know otherwise. this is my "view" based on nothing. Just so you know I'm not asking you to accept this I'm just sharing it.
For all of you
Where do you think humans learn't morals? do you think if we were isolated individual in some jungle or cave our morals would be different? honest question.Raz
you said
You have to understand the reason for its prohibition in the Quran in the first place. These had to do with
- STDs
- Unwanted pregnancies
- Responsiblity in caring for the children
All of these things can be mitigated through correct application of laws within society and by responsible behaviour as adults.
Not all laws are just so these can't be don't as easily as you think.
I'm pretty sure I've read a verse that states something along the lines of God created us in different cultures/tribes so that we can learn from one another. Now even though cultues have influences and strong ones they are not entirely bad. Also I can tell you that if you go into an Arab family claiming to have an open relationship making it ok to do what ever it is, I'm sure you'd be digging your own grave.. if you know what I mean. In some cultures some things will never work.. I mean why did the pagan arabs used to kill girls when they were born? why is it today that a girl can bring so much shame to a family more than a guy even if they did the same acts(sins) ? hmm I wonder.. it all relates down to culture and the things they accept and yeh I guess society.
Lots of cultures disprove of divorce, it still happens though. No culture likes "divorce" I mean who would? off course for some people it has it's benefits. anyway it's up to you how much of culture you wish to take or lose. Arranged marriages are like forced marriages, I would never approve of it (personally) and at the end of the day it was your parents who chose that path. but I feel sad that you have to suffer the consequences well that you have to see the bad side of it.
I don't think culture is as bad as you make it out
anyway
Asalamu alaikum
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Peace Sarah, all,
Where do you think humans learn't morals? do you think if we were isolated individual in some jungle or cave our morals would be different? honest question.
I think morals/good comes pre-programmed by The God in the form of "rouh"/spirit, and the bad comes pre-programmed by The God also, in the form of "hawah"/ego, and the combination is "nafs"/soul. Subsequently the "nafs" is given free choice to choose between the good and the bad, so we can distinguish ourselves as the best creation by using our free choice to choose the good, thus avoiding the bad and do good works through our physical bodies. We have also been given the gift of reason to think before we make the choice. There is another factor thrown in in the form of "satan" which can have access to our ego only if we choose to allow it. Finally, the revelation guides the reason.
The ego has been made pleasurable for the purpose of the test. The ego is not entirely bad, it can be good too if we control it, but becomes bad if we let it control us and we take our ego as our god, and then ego can overpower reason/knowledge.
4523 Have you seen the one who took his ego as his god, and God led him astray, despite his knowledge, and He sealed his hearing and his heart, and He made a veil on his eyes? Who then can guide him after God? Will you not remember?
If we were isolated individual in some jungle or cave, we will have all of the above, except the revelation. In that scenario, it might take us a very long time to find out the correct balance by using our reason and through trial and error. The revelation speeds up this process tremendously and gives us a distinct advantage of accomplishing much more good in our short life spans. In addition to that, "satan" has been given access only to the ego that chooses it to be its master. So actually the dice are loaded in our favor and all we have to do is make the right choice !!
Following is an interesting article on this topic, which differs slightly from the above view point (it considers only "rouh", "nafs", and "satan", and doesn't mention the ego separately) but is a very good reading nevertheless
http//free-minds.org/articles/science/human.htm
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Peace Raz, All
I come from a family where my parents had an arranged marriage and after 45 years it's painfully obvious that had they even gotten to know eachother for a year or so before hand they probably would've never gotten married. And even now they should be divorced but our culture doesn't permit it.
After 45 years and still thinking of divorce!?
Prohibitions against pre-marital intercourse are primarily cultural, historic, and socio-biologically based. They have nothing to do with God or spirituality.
I disagree with you on that. It does have to do with God and spirituality.
There is no such thing as pre-marital intercourse. Sex IS marriage, unless it is rape or adultery (being four-witnessed for having multiple partners). Sex is A Mithaqan Ghaleethan. It is only permitted for the one person you are committed to. That is why no spouse is allowed to mess around after that Mithaq is given.
It is irrelevant what to call that commitment. Some like to call it marriage, others would call it nika7, etc.. -
Peace Taj, all,
Sex IS marriage, unless it is rape or adultery (being four-witnessed for having multiple partners). Sex is A Mithaqan Ghaleethan. It is only permitted for the one person you are committed to. That is why no spouse is allowed to mess around after that Mithaq is given.
It is irrelevant what to call that commitment. Some like to call it marriage, others would call it nika7, etc..The above is not according to the Qur'aan.
The following excerpt is quoted from the following article by brother Ayman
http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/malak.htm
Following are the sequence of steps prescribed in the process of marriage.
Step 1. Oath of Engagement (mandatory for parent-protected, optional for self-protected)
?And there is no offense by you, in what you propose to engage women or you concealed in yourselves, God knew that you will remember them. However, do not date them secretly, except to say good/polite sayings, and do not intend the marriage?s bond until the (marriage) contract?s predetermined time is reached, and know that God knows what is in yourselves, so be cautious of Him, and know that God is forgiving, clement.? (2235)
Verse 2235 provides the definition for engagement. The word Kh(o)TB(a)t in 2235 has the following connotations
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Explanation in response to query (2095, 3820)
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Demand (3823)
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Engage in conversation (1137, 2327, 2563)
Therefore the purpose of the couple getting engaged is to engage in conversation to find out if they are compatible before marriage. As clear from 2235, engaged couples can meet in secret only if they do it to engage in conversation about good as opposed to sin. They are also not to intend to consummate the marriage through its physical bond (intercourse) before the preset time that is agreed on which, as we will see below, is after marriage.
Step 2. Marriage
N(a)K(a)H To marry (See 2221, 2230, 2232, 2235, 2237, 43, 46, 422, 425, 4127, 243, 2432, 2433, 2460, 2827, 3349, 3350, 3353, 6010)
Verses 3349, 2236 and 2237 clearly demonstrate that ?nakah? simply means ?to marry? and it doesn?t imply intercourse
?O, you who believed, if you married the believing women then you divorced them before having intercourse with them, then they do not owe you a waiting period for you to calculate, so gratify them, and release them a beautiful release? (3349)
Accordingly, we can logically conclude that the predetermined time for the consummation of marriage (intercourse) must occur after marriage.
Step 3. Consummation of Marriage
There are three expressions in the Quran that describe consummation of marriage
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?Okdat alnikah,? Marriage?s physical bond, i.e. intercourse (See 2235, 2237)
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?M(a)Ss(a)Ss? (For example 2236, 2237, 3349?)
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?D(a)Kh(a)L? (For example 423,?)
??and do not intend the marriage?s bond until the (marriage) contract?s predetermined time is reached??(2235)
The final step is the consummation of marriage. A date for the consummation of marriage must be set prior to getting married. The predetermined date can be anytime after the marriage (step 2) above.
If a couple gets divorced after marriage but before its consummation, then only half the agreed upon grant is obligatory (see 2237).
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I think some people here tend to generalize all people. They seem to think that everybody (Or should I say all men? ) on earth has the same high degree of responsibility. For example why is there law that forbids the ownership of gun? Not all people would go berserk and shoot innocent people around him if they had guns, But there are many people who are not responsible enough therefore they should not be allowed to own guns. I believe this is why such a law exists .
Anyway, my main concern about sex outside marriage is of course teen pregnancy. Everytime I saw a high school teenager with 'swollen belly', I somehow felt anger because I knew her life would probably go downhill from that point onward, especially if the boy refuses to be responsible (Well, what a high school boy could probably do anyway?). As for the adults, I could care less because they can take care of themselves especially in western societies, at most they will only get STDs. However, the olders set example of what is acceptable in society to the youngers.
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First let me clear this up. I never said ANYTHING about sex "outside" of marriage. I was referring to oral sex within marriage. I'm not a genius but it's pretty clear in the Koran that God expects us to save sex for marriage (my interpretation). Sounds like some of you have found some loopholes, but I'll stick to what's clear and makes the most sense for me.
And secondly, Sarah, I aplogize for not noticing that it was Tanveer who originally posted the comment of oral sex being "lewd". To me (and I of course may be wrong) that sounds like a personal judgement call; as I've yet to find it in the Koran. But like you said yourself, you have to trust your instincts about whether some things are wrong or right, you know in your gut, thank God.
And yes, Tanveer I did find another forum that I feel could potentially be of great value. However, our personal sexual practices aside, this thread did open an additionally important idea. The notion of judging. The "ye without sin shall cast the first stone" thing was meant to open a dialogue about the importance of leaving the judging to God. I keep remembering something I read (not 100% sure if it was in the Koran, but I think it was) about how we will NEVER get it right. Meaning, as hard as we try, we will all fall short of understanding exactly how God intends for us to lead our lives. And it just seems to me that if we all approach this thing called religion, with that concept in mind, we could all come away wiser, happier, and more at peace with ourselves and with each other. Additionally, I asked if any of you are aware of any Islamic sayings, or better yet, anything in the Koran where God tells us to withhold the judgement of our brothers and sisters. I once read where Muhammed said (loose quote), if any of you says to someone, you are not a Muslim, it is you who is not Muslim. That kind of sounds to me like a warning to practice non-judgement. I leave you with a current favorite (non-Muslim, directly anyway) quote "The highest form of human intelligence is the ability to observe without evaluating". -Jiddu Krishnamurti (Indian Philosopher)
And just a big blanket apology to any of you Muslims out there who don't make a habit of judging each other. Sorry. But I've been overwhelmed with an enormous amount of "finger-wagging" within the Islamic community. If I had not been touched with a feeling I'm unable to find words for while reading the Koran, I'd consider throwing in the whole religion towel. After you've been "zapped" with that kind of almost shockingly new awareness, it's difficult to understand how the religion has gotten so twisted. All I can do is tend to my own backyard and hope everyone else is doin' the same. Peace all!