Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Question

Lost_Philosopher

True, God gave it to them.
Historically true again, but God giveth, god taketh away. I cant remember where but it is said that the jews lost isreal because of sin and unfaithfullness. so no.
I guess so, because since it was a british colony, then given independence as Isreal and Palestine, At least the british recognized it.
Some of them would have to be. So yes.

warner

Peace be with you

According to history Abraham was in Palestine/Jerusalem first.

The Quraan says,

3 67

Yusuf Ali Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian but he was true in faith and bowed his will to Allah's (which is Islam) and he joined not gods with Allah.

Pickthall Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian; but he was an upright man who had surrendered (to Allah), and he was not of the idolaters.

Ma_ ka_na ibra_himu yahu_diyyaw wa la_ nasra_niyyaw wa la_kin ka_na hanifam muslima_(n), wa ma_ ka_na minal musyrikin(a).

3 68

Yusuf Ali Without doubt among men the nearest of kin to Abraham are those who follow him as are also this Apostle and those who believe; and Allah is the Protector of those who have faith.

Pickthall Lo! those of mankind who have the best claim to Abraham are those who followed him, and this Prophet and those who believe (with him); and Allah is the Protecting Friend of the believers.

Transliteration Inna aulan na_si bi ibra_hima lallazinattaba'u_hu wa ha_zan nabiyyu wallazina a_manu_, walla_hu waliyyul mu'minin(a).

I will not venture into the discussion whether anyone out there making claims to Palestine /Jerusalem today are described in 368. I think if anyone of these parties believe and are righteous they will inherit Palestine and may be much more.

jankren

True, God gave it to them.

But such a justification is rather stupid for people who do not belong to any of the Abrahamic faiths. Imagine the Hindus claim that God gave China to their ancestors thousands of years ago and now they are trying to take over the land because they believe they are the rightful owner due to a divine decree. Would you think that the Hindus are being rational? Would you think that the Confucian Chinese should just give away their land because the Hindu God said they are not the rightful owner of the land?

Lost_Philosopher

I think what I said in #2 can clear this up.

Historically true again, but God giveth, god taketh away. I cant remember where but it is said that the jews lost isreal because of sin and unfaithfullness. so no.

Angel

Many Orthodox Jews still believe that they are in exile and oppose Zionism, there?s also large opposition in Israel because many Orthodox Jews there don?t want Zionists to control the holy land either, but you NEVER hear about that do you?

If I was a Palestinian I would move, I could never tolerate the Nazi-like treatment by the racist Zionists.

palestina

1)God gave Palestine to the Jews

yes this may or may not be true - but the reality is that now most israelis dont even believe in god yet will still claim that the god they dont believe in gave them the land

2)Historically the Jews were there first therefore they have more right to the land

historically jews and palestinians lived alongside each other in peace - look at the samaritans still living as palestinians in Nablus for example.... palestinian jews then became israeli while their muslim or christian neighbours became refugees. And as for the Jews were there first - if you want to go back 2000 years - since then palestine was occupied by many different people.... take a look at this timeline it might help you understand the complicated history of the country http//www.palestine-net.com/history/bhist.html

3)There has never been an internationally recognized country called Palestine

ok technically speaking Palestine was under the British mandate before Israel was created, and before that it was part of the ottoman empire - i dont see how that is relevant - the point is there exists a people called palestinians who are living under occupation, and moreover under oppression! the people were there regardless of whether the country qualified as a country or whether it was a colony under british rule etc!

4)The current Palestinians themselves are the descendants of immigrants who came in the 19th Cent

again you need to look into the history of the country - an excellent book i would recommend is by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe - the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. Whoever told you that palestinians are descendants of immigrants who came in the 19th century does not have his facts straight - palestinians are an ethnic mix - a result of centuries of foreign occupation. it was the jews who then became israelis who began their immigration into the country in the 19th century

peace
and if you need more clarification on points id be happy to point you in the right direction

jankren

If I was a Palestinian I would move, I could never tolerate the Nazi-like treatment by the racist Zionists.

That is exactly what the Zionists are trying to do, to make the Palestinians leave by creating hell for them. Ironically the same tactic was also what they probably used to make ordinary Jews left Europe for Israel.

Lost_Philosopher

What I call "The Ironic Move" where a people are displaced, migrate and cause hell for the current inhabitants is not new, not even to jewish histroy (Cannans). All people deserve a homeland, but it should be taken by force.

palestina

All people deserve a homeland, but it should be taken by force.

peace lost philosopher - i think you meant it should NOT be taken by force? lol

But yes this is exactly what has happened - the abused becomes the abuser!

and i dont see any way out of the situation to be honest - it just gets worse - too much blood has already been spilt (on both sides) and there is too much intolerance - in fact i dont like the word intolerance - we tolerate things all the time - we need respect!

take a look at this article also - i just stumbled on it today - so sad!
http//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6405799.stm

Lost_Philosopher

Yes I meant should not, my bad. It is painfull to see that these people will slaughter each other without boundries.

Angel

That is exactly what the Zionists are trying to do, to make the Palestinians leave by creating hell for them. Ironically the same tactic was also what they probably used to make ordinary Jews left Europe for Israel.

Yes I know that is what they want. But with the conditions I would have to put up with (if I was a Palestinian) the land would not be worth it. Other countries like Norway, Canada, Australia, accept Palestinians, in fact Israel help Palestinians in Israel to immigrate!

I know Palestinians immigrating to other countries is what the Zionists want and by doing so you are letting them succeed in their ethnic cleansing regime, but the conditions you have to put up with if you did not leave are 'concentration-camp style'. And I am NOT exaggerating when I say the conditions are that bad, anybody who wants an in-depth analysis of Israel's policies towards the Palestinians I suggest you buy one of the books written by Israeli scholar Tanya Reinhart.

Many people that criticize Israel are accused of being antisemitic, so the best thing to do is whenever you talk about the conflict is to quote a Jew/Israeli who criticizes the fascist Zionist state.

an excellent book i would recommend is by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe - the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.

After reading Tanya Reinhart?s book I don't think I can ever stomach a book with a similar theme (no matter where the conflict is) ever again yuck. It leaves me feeling like this > '( yuck elektro for a very long time. It's so horrible i NEVER wanna feel like that again.

Ilan Pappe sure does seem like an intriguing guy, I first heard of the guy when he was a guest on a radio show presented by George Galloway.

http//www.logosjournal.com/pappe.htm

I don?t think I will read the book so bro ay if you don't mind can you highlight some of the controversial parts of the book that we are probably not aware of (briefly).

And does anyone know any organizations in the UK I can join that supports Palestinians in anyway? (I mean an organization that is not accused of terrorism by our Zionist government.)

Interpal was accused of supporting terrorist activities, I remember receiving a letter saying that the Zionists that accused Interpal of supporting terrorists admitted they lied, well they did not directly admit they lied but they said "We would like to make it clear that we should not have described Interpal in this way and we regret the upset and distress our item caused," what the pigs really meant was "we lied because we do not want anybody donating money to Interpal, and we want to accuse those that give money to Interpal of supporting terrorism, for years we have been going out of our way to try and stop the aid to the Palestinian people, we're not sorry we lied, we're sorry we got caught."

palestina

peace all,

im a sis not a bro - but its all good! lol
yes the conditions are that bad (i am palestinian - i have seen some camps - they are bad!) - but where are the palestinians supposed to go? i have a palestinian friend here in the UK - he has been denied asylum but israel wont have him back - so now hes stuck in a limbo - hes illegal here but cant go back! and there are many like him!! its a catch 22 - you cant claim asylum in countries sympathetic to israel, because if they accept your claim they must by default be acknowledging that israel commits crimes against the native population. so they dont accept you - but then israel wont take you back! and there you are - a rejected asylum seeker - therefore you have no papers - so you cant work - so you end up destitute a lot of the time! so your choices are very limited in fact - its not so simple to just leave.... didnt you hear about that palestinian family in texas who after 5 years of waiting finally had their claim rejected - and so were put in jail to await possible deportation - yes even the kids!! but luckily after alot of campaigning they were released from jail!

and its not just about a "piece of land" that is worth it - did you see the blacks fleeing south africa during apartheid? no they stood up and changed the way things were - palestinians should do the same - you cant just turn a blind eye to opression like that and move somewhere nice and forget about your friends/family etc you left behind! or do you want a mass upheaval of people?

yes i agree - always try to quote jewish and israeli and western sources in your argument because otherwize they will accuse you of being antisemitic and will discredit your argument saying it is just arab propaganda and refuse to hear you.

as for ilan pappe - it is not a stomach churning account of the ethnic cleansing - it is just rereading the accepted israeli version of the 1948 war etc - in this interview ilan pappe explains it himself -
http//www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/General/Story1903.html

as for organizations in the uk to join - where in the UK are you?
there are national ones such as
palestine solidarity campaign http//www.palestinecampaign.org/
scottish palestine solidarity campaign http//www.scottishpsc.org.uk/
sheffield www.sheffieldpsc.org.uk
exeter www.exeterpsc.org.uk

if you google you might find one for your area....

theres also the trade union friends of palestine www.tufp.org.uk
and friends of alaqsa www.aqsa.org.uk

peace
ay

Angel

Peace,

im a sis not a bro - but its all good! lol

I apologize for the insult, I am relieved that you are not offended. D

and its not just about a "piece of land" that is worth it - did you see the blacks fleeing south africa during apartheid? no they stood up and changed the way things were - palestinians should do the same - you cant just turn a blind eye to opression like that and move somewhere nice and forget about your friends/family etc you left behind! or do you want a mass upheaval of people?

It?s not that.

But the conditions are indescribably awful. It's something I personally could not tolerate. It?s not the type of place I would want my kid (if I had one) to grow up in.

BTW Israeli scholar Tanya Reinhart said this is far worse then the South African Apartheid. yuck

as for ilan pappe - it is not a stomach churning account of the ethnic cleansing - it is just rereading the accepted israeli version of the 1948 war

That?s cool; I thought it would be something like one of Tanya Reinharts books, where it gives you all the detailed accounts of all the heinous crimes committed by them evil Zionists and how they managed to cover up those crimes. That?s the type of stuff I never wanna read again. yuck

I live near Sheffield so thanks for the links. )

God bless

palestina

BTW Israeli scholar Tanya Reinhart said this is far worse then the South African Apartheid. yuck

yes an many south africans have reported the same thing - look up desmond tutu for example
and this report in the guardian is an interesting read
http//www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1703245,00.html

peace

jankren

I believe pro-Israel's supporters' claim is very stupid that just because the Israelites 2000 years ago brutally took over Palestine from the Canaanties then Palestine automatically belong to today's Jews, their supposed descendants even if they have not lived there for a millenium.

Using the same logic, then the Danes or the Germans also have the right to claim ownership of England because their ancestors thousands of years ago brutally took over the land from the Celts and named it Angle-land and later lost it to the French (Normans). So, if the Danes or the Germans want to 'take back' England, would it be logical for the English today to give it up without resisting?

Peace,

Angel

Erm Jankren, you better watch what you?re saying, you don?t wanna be accused of anti-Semitism! elektro

Here in England our Zionist government will think that your argument is plain silly and they will probably tell you to "grow up".

Mr Blair condemns the death of Israeli civilians, but when it come to Palestinian civilians he says "condemn is not the word". He indirectly says that he believes the blood of Palestinian civilians' should be spilt!

Blair is a Christian, many Palestinians are Christians, in fact those Christians are thought to be the direct descendants of Christ?s disciples, and what does our Blair do? He proudly supports the very people that oppress them in the most inhumane way! Honestly, those stupid Zionist Christians are so dumb! According to Pat Robertson there are 600 million Christian Zionists! 600 million is twice the number of the population in America! But the media is controlled by Zionists; no sane Christian will support the very people that oppress their Christian Palestinian brothers and sisters! Now Jesus?s disciples will not approve of Christians supporting the very people that oppress their descendents.

A note to Christian Zionists WAKE UP YOU IDIOTS!

I feel so sorry for the Anti-Zionist Jews, not only do they find Zionism gross idolatry but the fascist Zionists are committing the most horrendous crimes in THEIR name.

I mean c?mon we?ve all seen what Salafi?s are like when it comes to shirk, now just look at these guys

http//www.iamthewitness.com/JewsBurnIsraeliFlag.JPG

http//www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/ZionistState/images/iid2003-2.jpg

http//lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/satmar2.jpg

http//newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41495000/jpg/_41495912_orthodox_416_ap.jpg

http//newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42078000/jpg/_42078440_antizionistdemonstration5.jpg

http//img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/calpouya/endzionism.jpg

http//www.jtf.org/israel/ooo.07092004.israel.plo.orthodox.jews.anti.zionism.flag.small.jpg

http//i7.photobucket.com/albums/y270/oudist/israeli_flag_burn.jpg

http//www.bookmasters.com/clarity/images/b0006.gif

http//files.myopera.com/salventura/blog/Anti_Zionism.jpg

http//www.jankraak-taichitao.nl/upload/htmleditor/Jews%20judaism%20joined%20pro%20Lebanon%20demo.jpg

jedi

group

peace

Lost_Philosopher

Wow, how often do these protests occur and where?

Angel

Wow, how often do these protests occur and where?

Peace LP,

The protests are usually done by the Jewish group ?Neturei Karta? , it?s a rather small group with only a few hundred thousand members, but there are at least a dozen anti-Zionist Jewish sects, but Neturie Karta is the most active/passionate/controversial sect.
Dates and location of protests are listed here.

I hope you don?t mind me asking but are you a Christian? Ya kinda sound like one.
Do most Christians you know support the very people that oppress Palestinian Christians?

peace

Lost_Philosopher

Peace LP,

The protests are usually done by the Jewish group ?Neturei Karta? , it?s a rather small group with only a few hundred thousand members, but there are at least a dozen anti-Zionist Jewish sects, but Neturie Karta is the most active/passionate/controversial sect.
Dates and location of protests are listed here.

I hope you don?t mind me asking but are you a Christian? Ya kinda sound like one.
Do most Christians you know support the very people that oppress Palestinian Christians?

peace

Sound like one? Didnt know it was so obvious, well I am in ideology except that I dont believe that Jesus was divine. I couldnt exlpain the trinity and found it ilogical. i havent really talked to people on wether or not they support the state of Israel. Most christians support zionism for 2 reasons.

Most Christians dont know that Zionism is a racist ideology, they see it only as a homeland for the jewish people. I just recently discovered the racism hidden in zionism.
It is believed that the state of Israel is a sign of the end times, some would ratify the Israel to speed up the 'second coming.'

jankren

I heard the Anglican church is traditionally supportive of the Palestinian cause. So, how come most British people do not feel the same way?