Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Question

Angel

That is exactly what the Zionists are trying to do, to make the Palestinians leave by creating hell for them. Ironically the same tactic was also what they probably used to make ordinary Jews left Europe for Israel.

Yes I know that is what they want. But with the conditions I would have to put up with (if I was a Palestinian) the land would not be worth it. Other countries like Norway, Canada, Australia, accept Palestinians, in fact Israel help Palestinians in Israel to immigrate!

I know Palestinians immigrating to other countries is what the Zionists want and by doing so you are letting them succeed in their ethnic cleansing regime, but the conditions you have to put up with if you did not leave are 'concentration-camp style'. And I am NOT exaggerating when I say the conditions are that bad, anybody who wants an in-depth analysis of Israel's policies towards the Palestinians I suggest you buy one of the books written by Israeli scholar Tanya Reinhart.

Many people that criticize Israel are accused of being antisemitic, so the best thing to do is whenever you talk about the conflict is to quote a Jew/Israeli who criticizes the fascist Zionist state.

an excellent book i would recommend is by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe - the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.

After reading Tanya Reinhart?s book I don't think I can ever stomach a book with a similar theme (no matter where the conflict is) ever again yuck. It leaves me feeling like this > '( yuck elektro for a very long time. It's so horrible i NEVER wanna feel like that again.

Ilan Pappe sure does seem like an intriguing guy, I first heard of the guy when he was a guest on a radio show presented by George Galloway.

http//www.logosjournal.com/pappe.htm

I don?t think I will read the book so bro ay if you don't mind can you highlight some of the controversial parts of the book that we are probably not aware of (briefly).

And does anyone know any organizations in the UK I can join that supports Palestinians in anyway? (I mean an organization that is not accused of terrorism by our Zionist government.)

Interpal was accused of supporting terrorist activities, I remember receiving a letter saying that the Zionists that accused Interpal of supporting terrorists admitted they lied, well they did not directly admit they lied but they said "We would like to make it clear that we should not have described Interpal in this way and we regret the upset and distress our item caused," what the pigs really meant was "we lied because we do not want anybody donating money to Interpal, and we want to accuse those that give money to Interpal of supporting terrorism, for years we have been going out of our way to try and stop the aid to the Palestinian people, we're not sorry we lied, we're sorry we got caught."

palestina

peace all,

im a sis not a bro - but its all good! lol
yes the conditions are that bad (i am palestinian - i have seen some camps - they are bad!) - but where are the palestinians supposed to go? i have a palestinian friend here in the UK - he has been denied asylum but israel wont have him back - so now hes stuck in a limbo - hes illegal here but cant go back! and there are many like him!! its a catch 22 - you cant claim asylum in countries sympathetic to israel, because if they accept your claim they must by default be acknowledging that israel commits crimes against the native population. so they dont accept you - but then israel wont take you back! and there you are - a rejected asylum seeker - therefore you have no papers - so you cant work - so you end up destitute a lot of the time! so your choices are very limited in fact - its not so simple to just leave.... didnt you hear about that palestinian family in texas who after 5 years of waiting finally had their claim rejected - and so were put in jail to await possible deportation - yes even the kids!! but luckily after alot of campaigning they were released from jail!

and its not just about a "piece of land" that is worth it - did you see the blacks fleeing south africa during apartheid? no they stood up and changed the way things were - palestinians should do the same - you cant just turn a blind eye to opression like that and move somewhere nice and forget about your friends/family etc you left behind! or do you want a mass upheaval of people?

yes i agree - always try to quote jewish and israeli and western sources in your argument because otherwize they will accuse you of being antisemitic and will discredit your argument saying it is just arab propaganda and refuse to hear you.

as for ilan pappe - it is not a stomach churning account of the ethnic cleansing - it is just rereading the accepted israeli version of the 1948 war etc - in this interview ilan pappe explains it himself -
http//www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/General/Story1903.html

as for organizations in the uk to join - where in the UK are you?
there are national ones such as
palestine solidarity campaign http//www.palestinecampaign.org/
scottish palestine solidarity campaign http//www.scottishpsc.org.uk/
sheffield www.sheffieldpsc.org.uk
exeter www.exeterpsc.org.uk

if you google you might find one for your area....

theres also the trade union friends of palestine www.tufp.org.uk
and friends of alaqsa www.aqsa.org.uk

peace
ay

Angel

Peace,

im a sis not a bro - but its all good! lol

I apologize for the insult, I am relieved that you are not offended. D

and its not just about a "piece of land" that is worth it - did you see the blacks fleeing south africa during apartheid? no they stood up and changed the way things were - palestinians should do the same - you cant just turn a blind eye to opression like that and move somewhere nice and forget about your friends/family etc you left behind! or do you want a mass upheaval of people?

It?s not that.

But the conditions are indescribably awful. It's something I personally could not tolerate. It?s not the type of place I would want my kid (if I had one) to grow up in.

BTW Israeli scholar Tanya Reinhart said this is far worse then the South African Apartheid. yuck

as for ilan pappe - it is not a stomach churning account of the ethnic cleansing - it is just rereading the accepted israeli version of the 1948 war

That?s cool; I thought it would be something like one of Tanya Reinharts books, where it gives you all the detailed accounts of all the heinous crimes committed by them evil Zionists and how they managed to cover up those crimes. That?s the type of stuff I never wanna read again. yuck

I live near Sheffield so thanks for the links. )

God bless

palestina

BTW Israeli scholar Tanya Reinhart said this is far worse then the South African Apartheid. yuck

yes an many south africans have reported the same thing - look up desmond tutu for example
and this report in the guardian is an interesting read
http//www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1703245,00.html

peace

jankren

I believe pro-Israel's supporters' claim is very stupid that just because the Israelites 2000 years ago brutally took over Palestine from the Canaanties then Palestine automatically belong to today's Jews, their supposed descendants even if they have not lived there for a millenium.

Using the same logic, then the Danes or the Germans also have the right to claim ownership of England because their ancestors thousands of years ago brutally took over the land from the Celts and named it Angle-land and later lost it to the French (Normans). So, if the Danes or the Germans want to 'take back' England, would it be logical for the English today to give it up without resisting?

Peace,

Angel

Erm Jankren, you better watch what you?re saying, you don?t wanna be accused of anti-Semitism! elektro

Here in England our Zionist government will think that your argument is plain silly and they will probably tell you to "grow up".

Mr Blair condemns the death of Israeli civilians, but when it come to Palestinian civilians he says "condemn is not the word". He indirectly says that he believes the blood of Palestinian civilians' should be spilt!

Blair is a Christian, many Palestinians are Christians, in fact those Christians are thought to be the direct descendants of Christ?s disciples, and what does our Blair do? He proudly supports the very people that oppress them in the most inhumane way! Honestly, those stupid Zionist Christians are so dumb! According to Pat Robertson there are 600 million Christian Zionists! 600 million is twice the number of the population in America! But the media is controlled by Zionists; no sane Christian will support the very people that oppress their Christian Palestinian brothers and sisters! Now Jesus?s disciples will not approve of Christians supporting the very people that oppress their descendents.

A note to Christian Zionists WAKE UP YOU IDIOTS!

I feel so sorry for the Anti-Zionist Jews, not only do they find Zionism gross idolatry but the fascist Zionists are committing the most horrendous crimes in THEIR name.

I mean c?mon we?ve all seen what Salafi?s are like when it comes to shirk, now just look at these guys

http//www.iamthewitness.com/JewsBurnIsraeliFlag.JPG

http//www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/ZionistState/images/iid2003-2.jpg

http//lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/satmar2.jpg

http//newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41495000/jpg/_41495912_orthodox_416_ap.jpg

http//newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42078000/jpg/_42078440_antizionistdemonstration5.jpg

http//img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/calpouya/endzionism.jpg

http//www.jtf.org/israel/ooo.07092004.israel.plo.orthodox.jews.anti.zionism.flag.small.jpg

http//i7.photobucket.com/albums/y270/oudist/israeli_flag_burn.jpg

http//www.bookmasters.com/clarity/images/b0006.gif

http//files.myopera.com/salventura/blog/Anti_Zionism.jpg

http//www.jankraak-taichitao.nl/upload/htmleditor/Jews%20judaism%20joined%20pro%20Lebanon%20demo.jpg

jedi

group

peace

Lost_Philosopher

Wow, how often do these protests occur and where?

Angel

Wow, how often do these protests occur and where?

Peace LP,

The protests are usually done by the Jewish group ?Neturei Karta? , it?s a rather small group with only a few hundred thousand members, but there are at least a dozen anti-Zionist Jewish sects, but Neturie Karta is the most active/passionate/controversial sect.
Dates and location of protests are listed here.

I hope you don?t mind me asking but are you a Christian? Ya kinda sound like one.
Do most Christians you know support the very people that oppress Palestinian Christians?

peace

Lost_Philosopher

Peace LP,

The protests are usually done by the Jewish group ?Neturei Karta? , it?s a rather small group with only a few hundred thousand members, but there are at least a dozen anti-Zionist Jewish sects, but Neturie Karta is the most active/passionate/controversial sect.
Dates and location of protests are listed here.

I hope you don?t mind me asking but are you a Christian? Ya kinda sound like one.
Do most Christians you know support the very people that oppress Palestinian Christians?

peace

Sound like one? Didnt know it was so obvious, well I am in ideology except that I dont believe that Jesus was divine. I couldnt exlpain the trinity and found it ilogical. i havent really talked to people on wether or not they support the state of Israel. Most christians support zionism for 2 reasons.

Most Christians dont know that Zionism is a racist ideology, they see it only as a homeland for the jewish people. I just recently discovered the racism hidden in zionism.
It is believed that the state of Israel is a sign of the end times, some would ratify the Israel to speed up the 'second coming.'

jankren

I heard the Anglican church is traditionally supportive of the Palestinian cause. So, how come most British people do not feel the same way?

Angel

Lost Philosopher do you regard Hizballah as a terrorist organization or a political party?

I was quite surprised to find out that there are Christians in Hizballah too.

Anglican do support Israel. Perhaps not all/most but there certainly is support for Israel and I?ve never heard them support Palestinians.

Jankren most Christians in the UK are not religious and you seldom hear a Christian supporting Palestinians or Israeli?s.

However our government is ultra-Zionist and our media is predominantly controlled by Zionists. Alan Hart at GPU said everything we were told in the Middle East was a complete lie. They show us what the Palestinians have done wrong (which is always a reaction to Israeli aggression, but ofcause they don?t tell us that) and they ALWAYS cover up Israeli terrorism. And criticism of Israel is always silenced by accusing critics of being anti-Semitic. The Islam Channel has only reported about 1% of the horrific things Israel has done and it?s got 10 cases against them for being ?anti-Semitic?!, even though they have repeatedly said that they were anti-Zionist and not Anti-Semitic. They do have good lawyers that work for the show so inshallah they won?t take the channel off air.

Propaganda is very powerful, the only reason Hitler was so popular and got away with the horrendous things he did was through propaganda, and that?s how Israel gets away with everything, those Zionists learnt a lot from Hitler/Nazis. If you control the media, you control the people.

We do have large anti-Zionist Jewish communities here in England, especially in London and Manchester, but you never really hear about them.

Lost_Philosopher

Hezbolla, terrorist or political party? Thats hard to say knowing its a political party with a military wing, so I guess I could say both. Im not giving all the blame to Hezbolla for this war, Israel has commited its share of trecheries if not more than Hezbolla.

Angel

That war was so brutal '(

http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7558999542414492999&q=lebanon

yellowdog8272

I just wanna know what are the best rational ways to respond to the following statements during a discussion about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict

1)God gave Palestine to the Jews

2)Historically the Jews were there first therefore they have more right to the land

3)There has never been an internationally recognized country called Palestine

4)The current Palestinians themselves are the descendants of immigrants who came in the 19th Cent

Appreciate all responses in advance and if you have more questions to add please post them.

1)God gave Palestine to the Jews

According to what? The Qur'an? If so, the Qur'an does not say that the land belongs to the Jews. The Qur'an rather states that the land belongs to the children of Israel, hence the Israelites. The same thing probaly applies to the bible. Now it's important to know who the Israelites were - Are they the todays Jews(With khazar origin) whom jumped from Europe into Palestine/Jerusalem, or are they the Palestinians who have lived there for all their lives?

Most of the Jews who claim that Israel is their homeland are Europeans who think that they belong in Israel. A Palestinian is more likely to be a native of the land. Science proves it. The thing is that the Palestinians(With caananite/Israelite descends) have been changing identity many times as they have been conquered by many ethnic groups. Archaeologists at Tel Aviv University showed that city states and kingdoms were routinely made and obliterated in the ancient land of Canaan while the natives survived and continued to live.

"Results of a DNA study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim appears to match historical accounts that Arab Israelis ((Palestinian 194) and Palestinians, together as the one same population, represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times", albeit religiously first Christianized then largely Islamized, and all eventually culturally Arabized."American Academy for the Advancement of Science."

During the Khazar-empire, many Khazars converted to Judaism which explains why most of the Jews living in Israel orginated from Khazaria! This is where they belong

http//i41.tinypic.com/24n43s7.gif

Anyway, Palestinian villagers especially in Northern Palestine
for hundreds of years and until today use the name Cana?an for their children.
Second, designs on the cloths of villagers (the folkloric symbols) are
Canaanitic symbols (& are shared by location and by locals who are both
Christian and Muslim).

http//www.stml.net/text/Populations.pdf "DNA - The Origin of Palestinians and Their
Genetic Relatedness With Other
Mediterranean Populations"
http//raelianews.org/news.php?item.398.5 - "New studies show that Jews and Palestinians are both descendants of the ancient Jewish people" By "Ancient Jewish people" It's refering to the Israelites.
http//ronabbass.wordpress.com/2013/04/03/new-dna-science-proves-modern-day-jews-not-related-to-ancient-house-of-israel/

Now I'm not saying that ALL Jews orginated from Europe, but what I'm rather saying is that the majority of them are probaly from Europe. A small amount of the Jews have connections to Palestine. Shitler must have wiped out most Jews(with Israelite descends) which explains why they are a minority. As a Palestinian with possible Israelite ancestors, I consider the Zionists to be a complete joke - They should go back to Europe instead.

The Palestinians were kind enough to offer the Jews shelter and protection from Nazis, so why did they backstab the Palestinians all the sudden by ethnic cleansing them? Today, Israel is nothing but an apartheid state that is dividing both the Palestinians and the Israelies.. Palestinians are given less status in the Israeli society, although the Palestinians are the natives, while most Israeli Jews are not.

The zionists needs to be kicked out of Palestine.

Historically the Jews were there first therefore they have more right to the land

Not the Jews, but the Israelites.

The Israelites evolved from local Canaanites (archaeological evidence, not the stories of the Bible, which were never intended to be taken literally). But even if one is to take the stories of the Bible literally, there is plenty of "evidence" in the Bible that Hebrews prospered with Adomites and other Canaanites.

Most Palestinians = Israelites = Caananites.

DNA proves it.

3)There has never been an internationally recognized country called Palestine

It still dosen't give anyone the rights to steal the land from the people living there.

The current Palestinians themselves are the descendants of immigrants who came in the 19th Cent

This is a silly claim. I admit that Palestinian is a nationality, and not an ethnicity, hence there will be many people from different backgrounds who are Palestinians(e.g the Palestinian bedouins are most likely to be from Saudi-Arabia or any gulf-country). However, DNA-evidence still suggests that most Palestinians are the natives of Jerusalem.

Genetic analysis suggests that a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians, Jews and other earlier inhabitants of the southern Levant whose core may reach back to prehistoric times. A study of high-resolution haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Israeli Jews (70%) and of Palestinian Muslim Arabs (82%) belonged to the same chromosome pool.

Another genetic research studies suggests that some or perhaps most of the present-day Palestinians have roots that go back to before the 7th century, maybe even ancient inhabitants of the area. There are also Palestinians whom are descendants of the Israelite priestly caste Aaron.

Source http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people#DNA_and_genetic_studies

''One Y-specific DNA polymorphism (p49/Taq I) was studied in 54 Lebanese and 69 Palestinian males, and compared with the results found in 693 Jews from three communities (Oriental, Sephardic, and Ashkenazic). Lebanese, Palestinian, and Sephardic Jews seem to be similar in their Y-haplotype patterns, both with regard to the haplotype distributions and the ancestral haplotype VIII frequencies. The haplotype distribution in Oriental Jews is characterized by a significantly higher frequency of haplotype VIII. These results confirm similarities in the Y-haplotype frequencies in Lebanese, Palestinian, and Sephardic Jewish men, three Near-Eastern populations sharing a common geographic origin.'' Source http//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12820706

It makes sense that Lebanese, Palestinians and Sephardic Jews shares a DNA-pattern and a geographic origin, as these Palestinians are descendants of Caananites/Israelites, the Lebanese are descendants of Phoenicians(Whom originated from the earlier Canaanite inhabitants, hence the Phoenicians), and the Sephardic Jews are descendants of the Caananite/Israelites as well. Lebanon and Palestine are very close to each other, so of course they are going to share a geographic origin!

The problem is that the Palestinians have been conquered by many groups. When they were conquered by Arab Muslims for example, Islam became the religion of state and Arabic became the main language of the nation, which explains why they had to change their identity, culture and language to Arabic. They are today Arabs, but most of them consist of Levant ethnicities that goes way back in history. Not to mention, the Palestinians were also influenced by the Arab culture which is another reason why they changed their identity.

"Throughout history a great diversity of peoples has moved into the region and made Palestine their homeland Canaanites, Jebusites, Philistines from Crete, Anatolian and Lydian Greeks, Hebrews, Amorites, Edomites, Nabataeans, Arameans, Romans, Arabs, and Western European Crusaders, to name a few. Each of them appropriated different regions that overlapped in time and competed for sovereignty and land. Others, such as Ancient Egyptians, Hittites, Persians, Babylonians, and the Mongol raids of the late 1200s, were historical 'events' whose successive occupations were as ravaging as the effects of major earthquakes ... Like shooting stars, the various cultures shine for a brief moment before they fade out of official historical and cultural records of Palestine. The people, however, survive. In their customs and manners, fossils of these ancient civilizations survived until modernity?albeit modernity camouflaged under the veneer of Islam and Arabic culture."

George Antonius, founder of modern Arab nationalist history, wrote in his seminal 1938 book The Arab Awakening
" The Arabs' connection with Palestine goes back uninterruptedly to the earliest historic times, for the term 'Arab' denotes nowadays not merely the incomers from the Arabian Peninsula who occupied the country in the seventh century, but also the older populations who intermarried with their conquerors, acquired their speech, customs and ways of thought and became permanently arabised."

American historian Bernard Lewis writes
"Clearly, in Palestine as elsewhere in the Middle East, the modern inhabitants include among their ancestors those who lived in the country in antiquity. Equally obviously, the demographic mix was greatly modified over the centuries by migration, deportation, immigration, and settlement. This was particularly true in Palestine.

Jafar

1)God gave Palestine to the Jews

According to what? The Qur'an? If so, the Qur'an does not say that the land belongs to the Jews.
The Qur'an rather states that the land belongs to the children of Israel, hence the Israelites. The same thing probaly applies to the bible.

There are no statement in Quran whatsoever that God gave Palestine / Canaan to anyone. (Jews/Israelites whatsoever)

By reading the Tanakh, it's more complicated there are statement which state God did gave the Israelites the land in Canaan and then there are also statement which said God drove them out from Canaan (e.g. the invasion from Babylon / Nebucadnezzar) as punishment.

In Quran there are statement which said God caused / allow the Jewish temple to be destroyed twice (By Babylonians and by the Romans).

In Gospel, there are dark prophecy by Jesus where the temple in jerusalem will be destroyed and people will be cast out and butchered. (which come to materialize few decades after Jesus death by The Romans)

In summary; from the Tanakh, Gospel, Quran it seems to be 'the possession of land' is conditional and so does 'welfare and well being' of certain society. If there's justice in society then it will thrives, if there's wickedness in society then it will be destroyed either through natural disaster or invasion.

Now it's important to know who the Israelites were - Are they the todays Jews(With khazar origin) whom jumped from Europe into Palestine/Jerusalem, or are they the Palestinians who have lived there for all their lives?

This might be irrelevant..

Historically the Jews were there first therefore they have more right to the land

Not the Jews, but the Israelites.

The Israelites evolved from local Canaanites (archaeological evidence, not the stories of the Bible, which were never intended to be taken literally). But even if one is to take the stories of the Bible literally, there is plenty of "evidence" in the Bible that Hebrews prospered with Adomites and other Canaanites.

Well the Neanderthal was there first, and so does in Europe...
If the principle of 'who own the land' decided by 'who was there first'.
Definitely we need to give not only the entire middle east but also the entire europe to the Neanderthals..

Most Palestinians = Israelites = Caananites.
DNA proves it.

Well not quite if Israelites = Children of Jacobs.
Nobody hasn't done any research on 'who were closer to Jacob', which theoretically can be done by first taking the DNA sample of Jacob from his tomb.

3)There has never been an internationally recognized country called Palestine

It still dosen't give anyone the rights to steal the land from the people living there.

Canaan was under administration of the Turks before that it was being passed around between the crusaders and the sultans before that it was under the Mongols before that it was under the Caliphates before that it was under the Romans before that it was under the Greeks before that it was under the Persians before that it was under the Babylonians before that it was under "The Israelite Kingdom" before that it was under the Canaanites (Philistines, Jebusites, Phoenicians etc.. etc..) before that it was under the Egyptians before that it was under the Hittites and so on and so on.... and before that it was under the Neanderthals..

In any case it doesn't give anyone the rights to strip people from their homes and business, this happened to both the "palestinians" and the "jews" just because they're being identified as "palestinians" and/or "jews".

The current Palestinians themselves are the descendants of immigrants who came in the 19th Cent

This is a silly claim. I admit that Palestinian is a nationality, and not an ethnicity, hence there will be many people from different backgrounds who are Palestinians(e.g the Palestinian bedouins are most likely to be from Saudi-Arabia or any gulf-country). However, DNA-evidence still suggests that most Palestinians are the natives of Jerusalem.

Despite lack of DNA evidence or the logical problem to decide who were the 'true native' of Jerusalem..

I will say yes the today's Palestinians are descendent of people who were living there for many generations, they're the product of interbred from wide range of people, from Mongols, Turks, Chinese, Persians, Greeks, Egyptians, Romans, Hittites, Armenians, Arabs, Jews, Syrians, Babylonians etc.. etc.. etc..

BUT if we're to assume The Neanderthals are the TRUE NATIVE of Jerusalem.
Then today non-african people (60-70% of everyone today) are the TRUE DESCENDANT of the Jerusalem.
As we have DNA evidence for that.
http//content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1987568,00.html

Which means the Indians, the Chinese or the Brazilians can also lay claim to the land. rotfl

In Summary,
Trying to find justification from holy books or history on 'who earn more rights to the land' is quite futile.
The best thing to do moving forward is how to find a solution which can ensure peace within the region.

Among options available I still voted for One New Nation which encompass today's Israel + Palestine and nobody (either today Israel citizens or any other people) will get murdered/massacred, expelled or stripped of from their homes and belongings

Salam / Peace

yellowdog8272