Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Question
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Wow, how often do these protests occur and where?
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Wow, how often do these protests occur and where?
Peace LP,
The protests are usually done by the Jewish group ?Neturei Karta? , it?s a rather small group with only a few hundred thousand members, but there are at least a dozen anti-Zionist Jewish sects, but Neturie Karta is the most active/passionate/controversial sect.
Dates and location of protests are listed here.I hope you don?t mind me asking but are you a Christian? Ya kinda sound like one.
Do most Christians you know support the very people that oppress Palestinian Christians?peace
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Peace LP,
The protests are usually done by the Jewish group ?Neturei Karta? , it?s a rather small group with only a few hundred thousand members, but there are at least a dozen anti-Zionist Jewish sects, but Neturie Karta is the most active/passionate/controversial sect.
Dates and location of protests are listed here.I hope you don?t mind me asking but are you a Christian? Ya kinda sound like one.
Do most Christians you know support the very people that oppress Palestinian Christians?peace
Sound like one? Didnt know it was so obvious, well I am in ideology except that I dont believe that Jesus was divine. I couldnt exlpain the trinity and found it ilogical. i havent really talked to people on wether or not they support the state of Israel. Most christians support zionism for 2 reasons.
- Most Christians dont know that Zionism is a racist ideology, they see it only as a homeland for the jewish people. I just recently discovered the racism hidden in zionism.
- It is believed that the state of Israel is a sign of the end times, some would ratify the Israel to speed up the 'second coming.'
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Lost Philosopher do you regard Hizballah as a terrorist organization or a political party?
I was quite surprised to find out that there are Christians in Hizballah too.
Anglican do support Israel. Perhaps not all/most but there certainly is support for Israel and I?ve never heard them support Palestinians.
Jankren most Christians in the UK are not religious and you seldom hear a Christian supporting Palestinians or Israeli?s.
However our government is ultra-Zionist and our media is predominantly controlled by Zionists. Alan Hart at GPU said everything we were told in the Middle East was a complete lie. They show us what the Palestinians have done wrong (which is always a reaction to Israeli aggression, but ofcause they don?t tell us that) and they ALWAYS cover up Israeli terrorism. And criticism of Israel is always silenced by accusing critics of being anti-Semitic. The Islam Channel has only reported about 1% of the horrific things Israel has done and it?s got 10 cases against them for being ?anti-Semitic?!, even though they have repeatedly said that they were anti-Zionist and not Anti-Semitic. They do have good lawyers that work for the show so inshallah they won?t take the channel off air.
Propaganda is very powerful, the only reason Hitler was so popular and got away with the horrendous things he did was through propaganda, and that?s how Israel gets away with everything, those Zionists learnt a lot from Hitler/Nazis. If you control the media, you control the people.
We do have large anti-Zionist Jewish communities here in England, especially in London and Manchester, but you never really hear about them.
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Hezbolla, terrorist or political party? Thats hard to say knowing its a political party with a military wing, so I guess I could say both. Im not giving all the blame to Hezbolla for this war, Israel has commited its share of trecheries if not more than Hezbolla.
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I just wanna know what are the best rational ways to respond to the following statements during a discussion about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict
1)God gave Palestine to the Jews
2)Historically the Jews were there first therefore they have more right to the land
3)There has never been an internationally recognized country called Palestine
4)The current Palestinians themselves are the descendants of immigrants who came in the 19th Cent
Appreciate all responses in advance and if you have more questions to add please post them.
1)God gave Palestine to the Jews
According to what? The Qur'an? If so, the Qur'an does not say that the land belongs to the Jews. The Qur'an rather states that the land belongs to the children of Israel, hence the Israelites. The same thing probaly applies to the bible. Now it's important to know who the Israelites were - Are they the todays Jews(With khazar origin) whom jumped from Europe into Palestine/Jerusalem, or are they the Palestinians who have lived there for all their lives?
Most of the Jews who claim that Israel is their homeland are Europeans who think that they belong in Israel. A Palestinian is more likely to be a native of the land. Science proves it. The thing is that the Palestinians(With caananite/Israelite descends) have been changing identity many times as they have been conquered by many ethnic groups. Archaeologists at Tel Aviv University showed that city states and kingdoms were routinely made and obliterated in the ancient land of Canaan while the natives survived and continued to live.
"Results of a DNA study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim appears to match historical accounts that Arab Israelis ((Palestinian 194) and Palestinians, together as the one same population, represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times", albeit religiously first Christianized then largely Islamized, and all eventually culturally Arabized."American Academy for the Advancement of Science."
During the Khazar-empire, many Khazars converted to Judaism which explains why most of the Jews living in Israel orginated from Khazaria! This is where they belong
http//i41.tinypic.com/24n43s7.gif
Anyway, Palestinian villagers especially in Northern Palestine
for hundreds of years and until today use the name Cana?an for their children.
Second, designs on the cloths of villagers (the folkloric symbols) are
Canaanitic symbols (& are shared by location and by locals who are both
Christian and Muslim).http//www.stml.net/text/Populations.pdf "DNA - The Origin of Palestinians and Their
Genetic Relatedness With Other
Mediterranean Populations"
http//raelianews.org/news.php?item.398.5 - "New studies show that Jews and Palestinians are both descendants of the ancient Jewish people" By "Ancient Jewish people" It's refering to the Israelites.
http//ronabbass.wordpress.com/2013/04/03/new-dna-science-proves-modern-day-jews-not-related-to-ancient-house-of-israel/Now I'm not saying that ALL Jews orginated from Europe, but what I'm rather saying is that the majority of them are probaly from Europe. A small amount of the Jews have connections to Palestine. Shitler must have wiped out most Jews(with Israelite descends) which explains why they are a minority. As a Palestinian with possible Israelite ancestors, I consider the Zionists to be a complete joke - They should go back to Europe instead.
The Palestinians were kind enough to offer the Jews shelter and protection from Nazis, so why did they backstab the Palestinians all the sudden by ethnic cleansing them? Today, Israel is nothing but an apartheid state that is dividing both the Palestinians and the Israelies.. Palestinians are given less status in the Israeli society, although the Palestinians are the natives, while most Israeli Jews are not.
The zionists needs to be kicked out of Palestine.
- Historically the Jews were there first therefore they have more right to the land
Not the Jews, but the Israelites.
The Israelites evolved from local Canaanites (archaeological evidence, not the stories of the Bible, which were never intended to be taken literally). But even if one is to take the stories of the Bible literally, there is plenty of "evidence" in the Bible that Hebrews prospered with Adomites and other Canaanites.
Most Palestinians = Israelites = Caananites.
DNA proves it.
3)There has never been an internationally recognized country called Palestine
It still dosen't give anyone the rights to steal the land from the people living there.
- The current Palestinians themselves are the descendants of immigrants who came in the 19th Cent
This is a silly claim. I admit that Palestinian is a nationality, and not an ethnicity, hence there will be many people from different backgrounds who are Palestinians(e.g the Palestinian bedouins are most likely to be from Saudi-Arabia or any gulf-country). However, DNA-evidence still suggests that most Palestinians are the natives of Jerusalem.
Genetic analysis suggests that a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians, Jews and other earlier inhabitants of the southern Levant whose core may reach back to prehistoric times. A study of high-resolution haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Israeli Jews (70%) and of Palestinian Muslim Arabs (82%) belonged to the same chromosome pool.
Another genetic research studies suggests that some or perhaps most of the present-day Palestinians have roots that go back to before the 7th century, maybe even ancient inhabitants of the area. There are also Palestinians whom are descendants of the Israelite priestly caste Aaron.
Source http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people#DNA_and_genetic_studies
''One Y-specific DNA polymorphism (p49/Taq I) was studied in 54 Lebanese and 69 Palestinian males, and compared with the results found in 693 Jews from three communities (Oriental, Sephardic, and Ashkenazic). Lebanese, Palestinian, and Sephardic Jews seem to be similar in their Y-haplotype patterns, both with regard to the haplotype distributions and the ancestral haplotype VIII frequencies. The haplotype distribution in Oriental Jews is characterized by a significantly higher frequency of haplotype VIII. These results confirm similarities in the Y-haplotype frequencies in Lebanese, Palestinian, and Sephardic Jewish men, three Near-Eastern populations sharing a common geographic origin.'' Source http//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12820706
It makes sense that Lebanese, Palestinians and Sephardic Jews shares a DNA-pattern and a geographic origin, as these Palestinians are descendants of Caananites/Israelites, the Lebanese are descendants of Phoenicians(Whom originated from the earlier Canaanite inhabitants, hence the Phoenicians), and the Sephardic Jews are descendants of the Caananite/Israelites as well. Lebanon and Palestine are very close to each other, so of course they are going to share a geographic origin!
The problem is that the Palestinians have been conquered by many groups. When they were conquered by Arab Muslims for example, Islam became the religion of state and Arabic became the main language of the nation, which explains why they had to change their identity, culture and language to Arabic. They are today Arabs, but most of them consist of Levant ethnicities that goes way back in history. Not to mention, the Palestinians were also influenced by the Arab culture which is another reason why they changed their identity.
"Throughout history a great diversity of peoples has moved into the region and made Palestine their homeland Canaanites, Jebusites, Philistines from Crete, Anatolian and Lydian Greeks, Hebrews, Amorites, Edomites, Nabataeans, Arameans, Romans, Arabs, and Western European Crusaders, to name a few. Each of them appropriated different regions that overlapped in time and competed for sovereignty and land. Others, such as Ancient Egyptians, Hittites, Persians, Babylonians, and the Mongol raids of the late 1200s, were historical 'events' whose successive occupations were as ravaging as the effects of major earthquakes ... Like shooting stars, the various cultures shine for a brief moment before they fade out of official historical and cultural records of Palestine. The people, however, survive. In their customs and manners, fossils of these ancient civilizations survived until modernity?albeit modernity camouflaged under the veneer of Islam and Arabic culture."
George Antonius, founder of modern Arab nationalist history, wrote in his seminal 1938 book The Arab Awakening
" The Arabs' connection with Palestine goes back uninterruptedly to the earliest historic times, for the term 'Arab' denotes nowadays not merely the incomers from the Arabian Peninsula who occupied the country in the seventh century, but also the older populations who intermarried with their conquerors, acquired their speech, customs and ways of thought and became permanently arabised."American historian Bernard Lewis writes
"Clearly, in Palestine as elsewhere in the Middle East, the modern inhabitants include among their ancestors those who lived in the country in antiquity. Equally obviously, the demographic mix was greatly modified over the centuries by migration, deportation, immigration, and settlement. This was particularly true in Palestine. -
1)God gave Palestine to the Jews
According to what? The Qur'an? If so, the Qur'an does not say that the land belongs to the Jews.
The Qur'an rather states that the land belongs to the children of Israel, hence the Israelites. The same thing probaly applies to the bible.There are no statement in Quran whatsoever that God gave Palestine / Canaan to anyone. (Jews/Israelites whatsoever)
By reading the Tanakh, it's more complicated there are statement which state God did gave the Israelites the land in Canaan and then there are also statement which said God drove them out from Canaan (e.g. the invasion from Babylon / Nebucadnezzar) as punishment.
In Quran there are statement which said God caused / allow the Jewish temple to be destroyed twice (By Babylonians and by the Romans).
In Gospel, there are dark prophecy by Jesus where the temple in jerusalem will be destroyed and people will be cast out and butchered. (which come to materialize few decades after Jesus death by The Romans)
In summary; from the Tanakh, Gospel, Quran it seems to be 'the possession of land' is conditional and so does 'welfare and well being' of certain society. If there's justice in society then it will thrives, if there's wickedness in society then it will be destroyed either through natural disaster or invasion.
Now it's important to know who the Israelites were - Are they the todays Jews(With khazar origin) whom jumped from Europe into Palestine/Jerusalem, or are they the Palestinians who have lived there for all their lives?
This might be irrelevant..
- Historically the Jews were there first therefore they have more right to the land
Not the Jews, but the Israelites.
The Israelites evolved from local Canaanites (archaeological evidence, not the stories of the Bible, which were never intended to be taken literally). But even if one is to take the stories of the Bible literally, there is plenty of "evidence" in the Bible that Hebrews prospered with Adomites and other Canaanites.
Well the Neanderthal was there first, and so does in Europe...
If the principle of 'who own the land' decided by 'who was there first'.
Definitely we need to give not only the entire middle east but also the entire europe to the Neanderthals..Most Palestinians = Israelites = Caananites.
DNA proves it.Well not quite if Israelites = Children of Jacobs.
Nobody hasn't done any research on 'who were closer to Jacob', which theoretically can be done by first taking the DNA sample of Jacob from his tomb.3)There has never been an internationally recognized country called Palestine
It still dosen't give anyone the rights to steal the land from the people living there.
Canaan was under administration of the Turks before that it was being passed around between the crusaders and the sultans before that it was under the Mongols before that it was under the Caliphates before that it was under the Romans before that it was under the Greeks before that it was under the Persians before that it was under the Babylonians before that it was under "The Israelite Kingdom" before that it was under the Canaanites (Philistines, Jebusites, Phoenicians etc.. etc..) before that it was under the Egyptians before that it was under the Hittites and so on and so on.... and before that it was under the Neanderthals..
In any case it doesn't give anyone the rights to strip people from their homes and business, this happened to both the "palestinians" and the "jews" just because they're being identified as "palestinians" and/or "jews".
- The current Palestinians themselves are the descendants of immigrants who came in the 19th Cent
This is a silly claim. I admit that Palestinian is a nationality, and not an ethnicity, hence there will be many people from different backgrounds who are Palestinians(e.g the Palestinian bedouins are most likely to be from Saudi-Arabia or any gulf-country). However, DNA-evidence still suggests that most Palestinians are the natives of Jerusalem.
Despite lack of DNA evidence or the logical problem to decide who were the 'true native' of Jerusalem..
I will say yes the today's Palestinians are descendent of people who were living there for many generations, they're the product of interbred from wide range of people, from Mongols, Turks, Chinese, Persians, Greeks, Egyptians, Romans, Hittites, Armenians, Arabs, Jews, Syrians, Babylonians etc.. etc.. etc..
BUT if we're to assume The Neanderthals are the TRUE NATIVE of Jerusalem.
Then today non-african people (60-70% of everyone today) are the TRUE DESCENDANT of the Jerusalem.
As we have DNA evidence for that.
http//content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1987568,00.htmlWhich means the Indians, the Chinese or the Brazilians can also lay claim to the land. rotfl
In Summary,
Trying to find justification from holy books or history on 'who earn more rights to the land' is quite futile.
The best thing to do moving forward is how to find a solution which can ensure peace within the region.Among options available I still voted for One New Nation which encompass today's Israel + Palestine and nobody (either today Israel citizens or any other people) will get murdered/massacred, expelled or stripped of from their homes and belongings
Salam / Peace
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There are no statement in Quran whatsoever that God gave Palestine / Canaan to anyone. (Jews/Israelites whatsoever)
By reading the Tanakh, it's more complicated there are statement which state God did gave the Israelites the land in Canaan and then there are also statement which said God drove them out from Canaan (e.g. the invasion from Babylon / Nebucadnezzar) as punishment.
In Quran there are statement which said God caused / allow the Jewish temple to be destroyed twice (By Babylonians and by the Romans).
In Gospel, there are dark prophecy by Jesus where the temple in jerusalem will be destroyed and people will be cast out and butchered. (which come to materialize few decades after Jesus death by The Romans)
In summary; from the Tanakh, Gospel, Quran it seems to be 'the possession of land' is conditional and so does 'welfare and well being' of certain society. If there's justice in society then it will thrives, if there's wickedness in society then it will be destroyed either through natural disaster or invasion.
This might be irrelevant..
Well the Neanderthal was there first, and so does in Europe...
If the principle of 'who own the land' decided by 'who was there first'.
Definitely we need to give not only the entire middle east but also the entire europe to the Neanderthals..Well not quite if Israelites = Children of Jacobs.
Nobody hasn't done any research on 'who were closer to Jacob', which theoretically can be done by first taking the DNA sample of Jacob from his tomb.Canaan was under administration of the Turks before that it was being passed around between the crusaders and the sultans before that it was under the Mongols before that it was under the Caliphates before that it was under the Romans before that it was under the Greeks before that it was under the Persians before that it was under the Babylonians before that it was under "The Israelite Kingdom" before that it was under the Canaanites (Philistines, Jebusites, Phoenicians etc.. etc..) before that it was under the Egyptians before that it was under the Hittites and so on and so on.... and before that it was under the Neanderthals..
In any case it doesn't give anyone the rights to strip people from their homes and business, this happened to both the "palestinians" and the "jews" just because they're being identified as "palestinians" and/or "jews".
Despite lack of DNA evidence or the logical problem to decide who were the 'true native' of Jerusalem..
I will say yes the today's Palestinians are descendent of people who were living there for many generations, they're the product of interbred from wide range of people, from Mongols, Turks, Chinese, Persians, Greeks, Egyptians, Romans, Hittites, Armenians, Arabs, Jews, Syrians, Babylonians etc.. etc.. etc..
BUT if we're to assume The Neanderthals are the TRUE NATIVE of Jerusalem.
Then today non-african people (60-70% of everyone today) are the TRUE DESCENDANT of the Jerusalem.
As we have DNA evidence for that.
http//content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1987568,00.htmlWhich means the Indians, the Chinese or the Brazilians can also lay claim to the land. rotfl
In Summary,
Trying to find justification from holy books or history on 'who earn more rights to the land' is quite futile.
The best thing to do moving forward is how to find a solution which can ensure peace within the region.Among options available I still voted for One New Nation which encompass today's Israel + Palestine and nobody (either today Israel citizens or any other people) will get murdered/massacred, expelled or stripped of from their homes and belongings
Salam / Peace
There are no statement in Quran whatsoever that God gave Palestine / Canaan to anyone. (Jews/Israelites whatsoever)
By reading the Tanakh, it's more complicated there are statement which state God did gave the Israelites the land in Canaan and then there are also statement which said God drove them out from Canaan (e.g. the invasion from Babylon / Nebucadnezzar) as punishment.
In Quran there are statement which said God caused / allow the Jewish temple to be destroyed twice (By Babylonians and by the Romans).
In Gospel, there are dark prophecy by Jesus where the temple in jerusalem will be destroyed and people will be cast out and butchered. (which come to materialize few decades after Jesus death by The Romans)
In summary; from the Tanakh, Gospel, Quran it seems to be 'the possession of land' is conditional and so does 'welfare and well being' of certain society. If there's justice in society then it will thrives, if there's wickedness in society then it will be destroyed either through natural disaster or invasion.
Yeah that's probaly true.
Well the Neanderthal was there first, and so does in Europe...
If the principle of 'who own the land' decided by 'who was there first'.
Definitely we need to give not only the entire middle east but also the entire europe to the Neanderthals..Yes, Europe belongs to them, I agree. I'm sure they like Europe more!
Canaan was under administration of the Turks before that it was being passed around between the crusaders and the sultans before that it was under the Mongols before that it was under the Caliphates before that it was under the Romans before that it was under the Greeks before that it was under the Persians before that it was under the Babylonians before that it was under "The Israelite Kingdom" before that it was under the Canaanites (Philistines, Jebusites, Phoenicians etc.. etc..) before that it was under the Egyptians before that it was under the Hittites and so on and so on.... and before that it was under the Neanderthals..
That's where this quote comes in!
"Throughout history a great diversity of peoples has moved into the region and made Palestine their homeland Canaanites, Jebusites, Philistines from Crete, Anatolian and Lydian Greeks, Hebrews, Amorites, Edomites, Nabataeans, Arameans, Romans, Arabs, and Western European Crusaders, to name a few. Each of them appropriated different regions that overlapped in time and competed for sovereignty and land. Others, such as Ancient Egyptians, Hittites, Persians, Babylonians, and the Mongol raids of the late 1200s, were historical 'events' whose successive occupations were as ravaging as the effects of major earthquakes ... Like shooting stars, the various cultures shine for a brief moment before they fade out of official historical and cultural records of Palestine. The people, however, survive. In their customs and manners, fossils of these ancient civilizations survived until modernity?albeit modernity camouflaged under the veneer of Islam and Arabic culture."
In any case it doesn't give anyone the rights to strip people from their homes and business, this happened to both the "palestinians" and the "jews" just because they're being identified as "palestinians" and/or "jews".
I agree, but the Jews were living happy long before the Israelies put foot on Jerusalem. I agree that the big0try against Jews is stupid, but I believe that the hate against the Jews only came because of the Arab-Israeli war, hence it happened when Israelies began ethnic cleansing the Palestinians. Many Ignorant Arabs assume that Jews are somehow responsible for what happened to Palestine. Blaming Jews has become like a norm in the Arab world. I as an Arab find this to be quite hypocritical.
BUT if we're to assume The Neanderthals are the TRUE NATIVE of Jerusalem.
Then today non-african people (60-70% of everyone today) are the TRUE DESCENDANT of the Jerusalem.
As we have DNA evidence for that.
http//content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1987568,00.htmlWhich means the Indians, the Chinese or the Brazilians can also lay claim to the land.
There were Neanderthals in Palestine too.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kebara_Cave
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mugharet_ez-Zuttiyeh
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Es_SkhulSyria too!
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douara_Cave
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DederiyehHowever DNA suggests that Palestinians stretch back to "Prehistoric times".
Results of a DNA study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim appears to match historical accounts that Arab Israelis ((Palestinian 194) and Palestinians, together as the one same population, represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times", albeit religiously first Christianized then largely Islamized, and all eventually culturally Arabized."American Academy for the Advancement of Science."
In Summary,
Trying to find justification from holy books or history on 'who earn more rights to the land' is quite futile.
The best thing to do moving forward is how to find a solution which can ensure peace within the region.I totally agree. I only quoted that because many Israelies use those verses in the Qur'an to call Allah a zionist. In reality I could care less. I really don't believe that a scripture should tell who a land belongs to. I'll leave that up to science. To say that the Jews own the land is pretty pathetic considering that they aren't even an ethnicity, but just religious people. A land belongs to an ethnicity.
Either way, you should tell this to the Christians. They have never been so funny.
Among options available I still voted for One New Nation which encompass today's Israel + Palestine and nobody (either today Israel citizens or any other people) will get murdered/massacred, expelled or stripped of from their homes and belongings
No one wants to kill the Israelies other than the Extremist trash. The problem is that they are too fearful of the Palestinians. It's not like the Palestinians are after them. Sure we have some religious nutjobs, but it's not like all Palestinians agree with them. HamASS must GTFO. I support a leftist-democratic Palestinian group, or a liberalist, as long as it's democratic and dosen't use religion to justfy anything. The MAJORITY of the Palestinians are against extremist trash.
The problem is that there won't be any new nation. It's simple. Israel ethnic cleansed the Palestinians, and after many/some years they tell them "Hey, let's be friends! Forget history! Or you'll keep getting destroyed by us"
Israel has done a lot of crimes against the Palestinians, it's not like the Palestinians will ever go for peace either considering the things they go through. But it still dosen't mean we hate the Jews or the Israelies. We hate Zionism, and the goverment in Israel.
If the Israelies are so afraid of being killed by the people on the opposite side of the wall, then why not just get rid of their goverment? They have to understand that it's THEY who cause it.
I support a one-state as well, but that is if all the Palestinians agree to it. I'm sure that they won't because of what happened to them. If they don't, the only solution I believe in is to support a Palestinian democratic group that will choose to fight against its oppressors, and to unite with the Israelies. Not like HamASS who turned out to be complete garbage.
The problem with Israel, or rather the Israeli goverment is that it loves to provoke the Palestinians, and later on it makes it look like as if the Palestinians refused peace, but that is obvious, isn't it? The Israelites bomb the Palestinians and then they massacre them, and after some years they ask for peace knowing that the Palestinians won't accept because of what happened to them. This is Israels logic on purpose.
I will say yes the today's Palestinians are descendent of people who were living there for many generations, they're the product of interbred from wide range of people, from Mongols, Turks, Chinese, Persians, Greeks, Egyptians, Romans, Hittites, Armenians, Arabs, Jews, Syrians, Babylonians etc.. etc.. etc..
Thank you. I also believe this as well. There is no "accurate" DNA to prove who were the natives of this land.. But there's a lot of DNA that somehow suggests that the Palestinians are actually the natives. A Palestinian is more likely to be the native of Palestine. However, there's also DNA which suggests that some of the Jews or rather the Israelies of today are also native of the land.
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No one wants to kill the Israelies other than the Extremist trash. The problem is that they are too fearful of the Palestinians. It's not like the Palestinians are after them. Sure we have some religious nutjobs, but it's not like all Palestinians agree with them. HamASS must GTFO. I support a leftist-democratic Palestinian group, or a liberalist, as long as it's democratic and dosen't use religion to justfy anything. The MAJORITY of the Palestinians are against extremist trash.
The root cause of all this mess is IDENTITY POLITICS played out by extreme nationalism a.k.a facism, whether it is Arab Nationalism or Jewish Nationalism a.k.a Zionism.
The way identity politic works is they are trying to build a (fake) unity by enticing hatred towards a common enemy, which is another identity. And they've been playing this card up until today. The Arab Nationalist trying to unify the Arabs portrayed the Jews or The West as their common enemy, The Jewish Nationalist trying to unify the Jews always portrayed the Arabs as their common enemy.
The more hatred the Jews felt for the Arabs, the stronger they will become, and vice versa.
Things might be improved IF the "sane" people on both parties realize this scheme and REFUSE to become part of this insanity played out by their politicians using IDENTITY POLITICS strategy.
The problem is that there won't be any new nation. It's simple. Israel ethnic cleansed the Palestinians, and after many/some years they tell them "Hey, let's be friends! Forget history! Or you'll keep getting destroyed by us"
Israel has done a lot of crimes against the Palestinians, it's not like the Palestinians will ever go for peace either considering the things they go through. But it still dosen't mean we hate the Jews or the Israelies. We hate Zionism, and the goverment in Israel.
Remember the Jews was also being stripped of their home and belonging as well.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countriesOf course the Palestinians can always argues
It was the Algerians, Morrocans, Egyptians, Iraqis, Tunisians, Yemenites etc.. who performed such atrocities and NOT US!!But remember the IDENTITY POLITICS being played out by the nationalist, they will say (to their own people) the ARABS kicked you out and PALESTINIANS are ARABS, thus let's get even to them!! It's time for REVENGE! Let's kick them out!
Politically, I would recommend to start the 'un-identification' of Palestinians as Arabs.
This will make less room for the jewish nationalist to play out their IDENTITY POLITICS strategy.And there's a saying "Forgive but not to forget".
It's time for Palestinians to wise up and see things clearly, that both them and common jewish people are the VICTIMS of IDENTITY POLITICS played out by the Jewish Nationalist and Arab Nationalists.
The Arab Nationalist are not Palestinian true friend so to speak, they do have their own agenda and that's among the reason why they refuse to admit "Palestinian Refugees" as their own citizen. Because if they do that, there will be no more "Palestinian problems", if there's no more "Palestinian Problems" there will be no more reason to entice hatred towards the jews thus there are no more common enemy and they cannot play out their IDENTITY POLITICS strategy. The Arabs Nationalist will ALWAYS keep on reminding the Palestinians of the pain and sorrow the Jews have enticed to them, the jews are your enemy, all jews!!
Realization of this whole devilish scheme by the common jews and palestinians is essential in order for them to start their own resistance against propaganda made by their own government.
If the Israelies are so afraid of being killed by the people on the opposite side of the wall, then why not just get rid of their goverment? They have to understand that it's THEY who cause it.
I support a one-state as well, but that is if all the Palestinians agree to it. I'm sure that they won't because of what happened to them. If they don't, the only solution I believe in is to support a Palestinian democratic group that will choose to fight against its oppressors, and to unite with the Israelies. Not like HamASS who turned out to be complete garbage.
Things start moving in Israel and FYI there ARE Arabs living in Israel as Israeli citizens.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_IsraelYet it takes two to tango right?
The more hatred shown by "the people on the opposite side of the wall" the stronger the zionist and Arab Nationalist will become.
The less hatred shown by "the people on the opposite side of the wall" the zionist and Arab Nationalist will become definitely weaker.The problem with Israel, or rather the Israeli goverment is that it loves to provoke the Palestinians, and later on it makes it look like as if the Palestinians refused peace, but that is obvious, isn't it? The Israelites bomb the Palestinians and then they massacre them, and after some years they ask for peace knowing that the Palestinians won't accept because of what happened to them. This is Israels logic on purpose.
This is a common play within IDENTITY POLITICS strategy, like I said it's being played out by both the jewish nationalist (Zionist) AND the arab nationalist.
Again, like I said
Realization of this whole devilish scheme by the COMMON jews and palestinians is essential in order for them to start their own resistance against propaganda made by their own government.Salam / Peace
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Israel is a creation of the British Empire set up so that it destroys arab nationalism which was the one movement which might give trouble to the dominion of the British Empire and other Europeans in gtheir shadow and later USA. It is a colonial conflict. It is not a conflict between two people that do not understand each other. That is what the Imperials want to portray and what some swallow. That is what it is till today. There are not two people in conflict but an anticolonial resistance in which a whole population of colonnists have been brainwashed made neurotic so that they can do the job of the empire in killing off a whole indigenous population and then some like preventing any country in the region to make any headway, which they can easily do since they have behind them the forces and seapons and means and special operations of the imperials and their money and also their own nuclear weapons and money twhich they extract from the whole world.
Salaam
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Israel is a creation of the British Empire set up so that it destroys arab nationalism which was the one movement which might give trouble to the dominion of the British Empire and other Europeans in gtheir shadow and later USA. It is a colonial conflict. It is not a conflict between two people that do not understand each other. That is what the Imperials want to portray and what some swallow. That is what it is till today. There are not two people in conflict but an anticolonial resistance in which a whole population of colonnists have been brainwashed made neurotic so that they can do the job of the empire in killing off a whole indigenous population and then some like preventing any country in the region to make any headway, which they can easily do since they have behind them the forces and seapons and means and special operations of the imperials and their money and also their own nuclear weapons and money twhich they extract from the whole world.
Salaam
And Arab nationalism was created by the British through christian Syrian and Lebanese activists, to destroy the Ottoman Empire.
You are overestimating Arab nationalism. It was never a danger to western powers, and never has been. Its a complete failure, and thats why the British concocted it. They knew it can not be applied constructively to Middle Eastern social reality, it serves as a cleaving factor.
Israels establishment has nothing to do with Arab nationalism. It has to do with
- Getting rid of Jews from Europe
- Creating a client state in the Middle East for British power projection in order to
a) Curb other nations aspirations in the region (Russian, French)
b) Secure access to the oil in the region -
The root cause of all this mess is IDENTITY POLITICS played out by extreme nationalism a.k.a facism, whether it is Arab Nationalism or Jewish Nationalism a.k.a Zionism.
The way identity politic works is they are trying to build a (fake) unity by enticing hatred towards a common enemy, which is another identity. And they've been playing this card up until today. The Arab Nationalist trying to unify the Arabs portrayed the Jews or The West as their common enemy, The Jewish Nationalist trying to unify the Jews always portrayed the Arabs as their common enemy.
The more hatred the Jews felt for the Arabs, the stronger they will become, and vice versa.
Things might be improved IF the "sane" people on both parties realize this scheme and REFUSE to become part of this insanity played out by their politicians using IDENTITY POLITICS strategy.
Remember the Jews was also being stripped of their home and belonging as well.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countriesOf course the Palestinians can always argues
It was the Algerians, Morrocans, Egyptians, Iraqis, Tunisians, Yemenites etc.. who performed such atrocities and NOT US!!But remember the IDENTITY POLITICS being played out by the nationalist, they will say (to their own people) the ARABS kicked you out and PALESTINIANS are ARABS, thus let's get even to them!! It's time for REVENGE! Let's kick them out!
Politically, I would recommend to start the 'un-identification' of Palestinians as Arabs.
This will make less room for the jewish nationalist to play out their IDENTITY POLITICS strategy.And there's a saying "Forgive but not to forget".
It's time for Palestinians to wise up and see things clearly, that both them and common jewish people are the VICTIMS of IDENTITY POLITICS played out by the Jewish Nationalist and Arab Nationalists.
The Arab Nationalist are not Palestinian true friend so to speak, they do have their own agenda and that's among the reason why they refuse to admit "Palestinian Refugees" as their own citizen. Because if they do that, there will be no more "Palestinian problems", if there's no more "Palestinian Problems" there will be no more reason to entice hatred towards the jews thus there are no more common enemy and they cannot play out their IDENTITY POLITICS strategy. The Arabs Nationalist will ALWAYS keep on reminding the Palestinians of the pain and sorrow the Jews have enticed to them, the jews are your enemy, all jews!!
Realization of this whole devilish scheme by the common jews and palestinians is essential in order for them to start their own resistance against propaganda made by their own government.
Things start moving in Israel and FYI there ARE Arabs living in Israel as Israeli citizens.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_IsraelYet it takes two to tango right?
The more hatred shown by "the people on the opposite side of the wall" the stronger the zionist and Arab Nationalist will become.
The less hatred shown by "the people on the opposite side of the wall" the zionist and Arab Nationalist will become definitely weaker.This is a common play within IDENTITY POLITICS strategy, like I said it's being played out by both the jewish nationalist (Zionist) AND the arab nationalist.
Again, like I said
Realization of this whole devilish scheme by the COMMON jews and palestinians is essential in order for them to start their own resistance against propaganda made by their own government.Salam / Peace
The root cause of all this mess is IDENTITY POLITICS played out by extreme nationalism a.k.a facism, whether it is Arab Nationalism or Jewish Nationalism a.k.a Zionism.
Well the way I see it, nationalism is what the Arab world needs today. Just take a look on what the US did to Iraq, where were all the Arabs? The only countries that tried to push the away the war were the Arab nationalists-socialists(I.e the Ba'athists and Nasserists in Syria, and the Nassersists/Baa'athists/Nationalist in Egypt and Lebanon.) Actually, the root cause of this is groups like HamASS, Fatah.. And then you have the Zionists. While Zionists believe in Jewish nationalism, HamASS believes in an Islamist nationalism.
It has nothing to do with Arab nationalism or Israeli nationalism. Maybe Israeli nationalism. It only had to do with these two is when people mix nationalism with something else(e.g religion)
The way identity politic works is they are trying to build a (fake) unity by enticing hatred towards a common enemy, which is another identity. And they've been playing this card up until today. The Arab Nationalist trying to unify the Arabs portrayed the Jews or The West as their common enemy, The Jewish Nationalist trying to unify the Jews always portrayed the Arabs as their common enemy.
Yes, the Zionists portray Arabs as their enemies. I totally agree.
Things might be improved IF the "sane" people on both parties realize this scheme and REFUSE to become part of this insanity played out by their politicians using IDENTITY POLITICS strategy.
I'm assuming that it's never going to happen..
Remember the Jews was also being stripped of their home and belonging as well.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countriesI'm totally against that and I condemn it too.
Anyway this is what Israel wanted all along. They wanted the Jews to be expelled from the Arab-countries, so they could make them come to Israel. But one have to be honest in what really happened.. This was a bad move by the Arabs by expelling the Jews. This is what Israel was pushing for all along.
Yosef Weitz, director of the Jewish National Fund Lands Department, was very active as of March 1948 in planning for and implementing plans to expel the Palestinians, destroy their villages and build new homes for the influx of new Jewish immigrants. These activities were given in detail by Benny Morris in his books, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem 1947-1949, and 1948 and After Israel and the Palestinians. If the Jewish community in Palestine was in a state of self-defence and threatened by the "mighty Arab armies", they could not afford the time for Yosef Weitz activities (that were planned and implemented in cold blood).
In his book, The Gun and the Olive Branch, David Hirst describes in detail covert Israeli operations to scare Iraqi and Egyptian Jews into fleeing their homes for the "sanctuary" of Israel. In Iraq they did so by placing bombs in areas frequented by Iraqis who were Jewish, then starting whispering campaigns that scared people into emigrating. The plan worked brilliantly, but then again, Israeli intelligence/covert operatives had experience with such things from massacres like Deir Yasin, where they slaughtered 250 people and subsequently terrorized hundreds of thousands into fleeing their homes lest they suffer the same brutal fate. In Egypt, the plan had two targets, one, to spur emigration of Egyptian Jews, and two, to damage nascent relations between the Free Officers group, led by Jamal Abdel Nasser, and the US and Britain. A series of bombings took place and a handful of Jewish residents, some Egyptian, some foreign, were arrested, tried and convicted. Two were hanged. Again, the whispers started, but few actually left the country.
Despite Israeli protests that the accused were being framed a la Dreyfus, political infighting within the Israeli government over the matter, labelled the "Lavon Affair," after the then minister of defence, Pinhas Lavon, launched a 1960 inquiry that concluded that elements of the Israeli security apparatus, guided by David Ben Gurion, were in fact responsible for the bombings in Egypt. Sadly, after the 1956 Israeli-British-French invasion of Egypt, however, the Egyptian government took the Israeli bait and began ordering the expulsion of large numbers of Jews, some Egyptian, others with foreign citizenship, from Egypt. The number who left is as high as 50,000.
In his book, Ben Gurion's Scandals, Naeim Giladi (an Iraqi Jew and former Zionist) discusses the crimes committed by Zionists in their frenzy to import Jews from Iraq to Israel in the 1950s. He lives in New York now after he left Israel and he wrote to 'The Link' about his book ,saying "About 125,000 Jews left Iraq for Israel in the late 1940s and into 1952, most because they had been lied to and put into a panic by what I came to learn were Zionist bombs. But my mother and father were among the 6,000 who did not go to Israel."
Rabbi Schonfeld also wrote about the same tactics used to get the Jews of Iraq to flee to Israel. Zionists tried to convince these Arab Jews that it was the Arabs who were exploding bombs in their neighbourhoods, but it was the Zionists who dreamed of populating Israel with Jews from all over the world. Wilbur Crane Eveland, a former CIA operative, wrote about the Zionist crimes against Arab Jews in Iraq (Feuerlicht, The Fate of the Jews, 231). A Jewish author, Alfred Lilienthal, wrote about the oppressive treatment by Ashkenazi (European) Jews in Israel of the Sephardic Jews (who were of Semitic Arab origin) in his book, The Zionist Connection.
Jews in the Arab world were always treated with respect and civility throughout history. Any mistreatment they received was at the hands of the Zionists in Israel. In either case, Arab countries continue to have a policy of welcoming emigrants back to those countries unlike Israel
As to the absorption of Palestinian refugees in Arab countries, that is against international law and becomes complicity with a war crime. Jewish immigrants are absorbed in Israel as part of the Zionist dream and this is not the same thing as indicated above (i.e. not an issue of population exchange). For example, there was no populatio,n exchange when one million Russian Jews came to Israel. In either case, the right of those people to return to their countries is preserved by international law which is very clear about the forcible movement of people.
Nathan Chofshi, wrote "We came and turned the native Arabs into tragic refugees. And still we have to slander and malign them, to besmirch their name. Instead of being deeply ashamed of what we did and trying to undo some of the evil we committed ... we justify our terrible acts and even attempt to glorify them." (Jewish Newsletter, New York, 9 February 1959, cited in Erskine Childers, 'The Other Exodus', in The Spectator, London, 12 May 1961)
Martin Buber, Jewish Philosopher, addressed Prime Minister Ben-Gurion on the moral character of the state of Israel with reference to the Arab refugees in March 1949 "We will have to face the reality that Israel is neither innocent, nor redemptive. And that in its creation, and expansion; we as Jews, have caused what we historically have suffered, a refugee population in Diaspora."
You'll be suprised to know how good the Zionists are at covering up history.
Two competing stories existed until recently Palestinians who reported how they were basically ethnically cleansed before, during and after the war, and the Israeli story that left of their own will or were encouraged to leave despite being asked to stay. However, the "new Israeli historians", such as Ilan Pappe, Benny Morris, Sternhall, Avi Schlaim and Tom Segev, have debunked the established Israeli myths using Israeli archives and declassified material. As an example, after opening the Israeli army archives we find a cable dated 31 October 1948, signed by Major-General Carmel and addressed to all the division and district commanders under his command "Do all you can to immediately and quickly purge the conquered territories of all hostile elements in accordance with the orders issued. The residents should be helped to leave the areas that have been conquered."
The truth, which was revealed and documented by direct references to Israeli, American, British and UN archives, by historians like Michael Palumbo and the Israeli historians (Pappe, Shlaim, Segev, Morris, Sternal) not to mention the credible Palestinian historians, was contrary to the Israeli and Zionist propaganda about the war. According to these honest and credible accounts, the truth, which is there for everyone who wants to know the truth, was as follows
The "War of Independence" did not start on 15 May and in self-defence against the "aggression" of the Arab armies who invaded Israel. The war started in early April by the Haganah, which launched its offensive according to "Plan Dalet". Preparations for this war began immediately after World War II. (I refer you here to the activities of Ben-Gurion that were detailed in Michael Bar-Zohar's book, Ben-Gurion A Biography (New York Delacorte Press, 1977).
Politically, I would recommend to start the 'un-identification' of Palestinians as Arabs.
Personally not me. This would mean that they would receive less support from the Arab nations, and probaly receive less "status" in the Arab nations society.
The Arab Nationalist are not Palestinian true friend so to speak, they do have their own agenda and that's among the reason why they refuse to admit "Palestinian Refugees" as their own citizen. Because if they do that, there will be no more "Palestinian problems", if there's no more "Palestinian Problems" there will be no more reason to entice hatred towards the jews thus there are no more common enemy and they cannot play out their IDENTITY POLITICS strategy. The Arabs Nationalist will ALWAYS keep on reminding the Palestinians of the pain and sorrow the Jews have enticed to them, the jews are your enemy, all jews!!
That's not true. The Arab nationalists welcomed the Palestinians.
Out of curiosity, what is their "agenda"? The only Arab nationalists that has an agenda of which I could think off is the Syrian nationalist party. They want to make Palestine a part of greater Syria, but they will never be elected.
The only countries that wasn't "Nice" towards the Palestinians was Jordan, Saudi-Arabia, Qatar, etc.
The Zionist leadership was in tacit agreement with Emir Abdullah of Transjordan. According to this agreement, Palestine would be divided between the Jews and Abdullah. Abdullah would take that part of Palestine allotted to the Arabs west of the Jordan Valley according to UN Resolution 181 (II) of 29 November 1947. This part later became to be known as the West Bank. The rest of Palestine was to be left for the "Exclusive Jewish State". (Documented and intriguing details of this agreement were presented in Avi Shlaim's book, Collusion Across the Jordan King Abdullah, The Zionist Movement, and the Partition of Palestine (New York Columbia University Press, 198.
Syria, Iraq, Egypt and Lebanon on the otherhand were great countries that armed the Palestinian resistance and offered them help. And as much as the goverments there may not have been perfect, they atleast tried, no? Or am I wrong? Anyway there's a reason why the Palestinians love Iraq, Lebanon, Egypt and Syria.
Now I don't like Saddam, but even under his rule; The Palestinians were treated greatly in Iraq. But again, I won't credit him, I'll rather credit the people living there(I.e the Iraqis).
Heck, the Palestinians were even treated greatly in Syria too..
At the beginning of the twentieth century, there where actually no borders between Palestine and Syria; prior to that time, there was economic and social integration between the Palestinian and Syrian peoples. The Syrian took part in the Palestinian revolution of 1936 and contributed in attempts to repel Israel's colonizing attack on Palestine's territories in 1948, resulting in the Nakba. After the Nakba, Palestinian's began migrating to neighboring areas, and Syria received a significant number of them as Palestinians found support from the Syrian people during their tragic crisis.
Since Palestinians migrated to Syria in 1948, Syrian authorities have legalized their residence in Syria, and issued laws and resolutions to organize their presence on Syrian territories in a way that would garantee them a reasonable standard of living and preserve their national identity. Under these laws, they became Syrians in a terms of right and duties, but remained Palestinian in terms of national identity, which paved the way for them to contribute to building Syria after its idependence, on an equal footing with their Syrian brothers and sister. Job opportunities were open to them just like the Syrians, so they were able to involve themselves with the economic life, with some having emerged as primnent buisnessmen, factory owners, and merchants, as well as professionals and entrepreneurs. The only sign of a separate Palestinian existence in Syria is the presence of camps, which were not imposed on them by the goverment, but were mantained at their own volition. A diverse population lives in the camps as they are not places for poor Palestinians, but open to all, not closed in on themselves or Palestinian ghettos; Syrians reside in them too, and they all integrated into their Syrian surroundings. It is important to clarify that there are more Palestinian refugees living in Syrian cities than there are in the camps.
Palestinians are part of and have actively participated in Syrian political life, and having been encouraged by the fact that the liberation of Palestine was a central issue for the Syrian national movements, they became a member of these movements without any discrimination. In fact, they occupied leading positions in the movements such as the Baath Party, Arab Nationalist Movement, Muslim Brotherhood, Hizb al-Tahrir al-Islami (Islamic Liberation Party), and the Syrian Social Nationalist Party (SSNP). They also contributed to the formations of policies and the different programs within these parties, and held senior positions in goverment departments, such as general director, department head, university clean, and minister, though to occupy these roles they were granted Syrian nationality in order to conform to Syrian law.
Palestinians also contributed to the building of the Syrian army in the post-independence stage. Syria received a group of 65 Palestinian youth from various districts and cities who had volunteered to be trained as officers in the ''Palestinian Officers Academy'' in Qatna, next to Damascus which was opened after a decision from the Arab Salvation Army. They graduted from the academy after the Nakba, though many of them voluntarily remained in the Syrian army. The Syrian goverment granted them Syrian nationality under special decree number 1327 on August 17, 1950, signed into act by former Syrian President Hashim al-Atassi; after this time, Palestinians held important poisitions in the Syrian army.
Within the framework of equality in rights of duties, Palestinians are conscripted to military service just like Syrians. They are also allowed to join the army and reach the highest ranks, and since special army regolutions state that higher ranks are limited only to Syrians and not to those under their rule (i.e., Palestinians), the Syrian authorities granted them Syrian nationality.
A law(Number 206) was passed by the Syrian pariliament and issued by former Syrian President Shukri al-Quwatli(Who was a nationalist BTW) on July 10, 1956. The first article of this law states that ''Palestinians residing in Syria as of the date of pulications of this law are to be considered as orginally Syrian in all things covered by the law and legally valid regulations connected with the right to employment, commerce, and national service, while preserving their orginal nationality.'' This law is still in force today.
There's a reason why nationalist groups such as Baa'thism for example has the Palestinian flag as its main logo. It's calling for the liberation of Palestine.
I don't like the id?a that the ARAB Jews were expelled from their own countries. They are Arabs afterall, that's what matters right? That is no nationalism if someone does this. Pure Arab nationalism teaches that all Arabs are equal regardless of religion.
The problem comes when people try to mix nationalism with something else(e.g religion or traditions).
The nationalists' discourse was meant to inspire, from Gamal Abdel Nasser's thundering speeches in Egypt to Michel Aflaq's eloquent thoughts in Syria, Iraq and elsewhere. At least then, it seemed to matter little that Nasser was an Egyptian Sunni Muslim, and that Aflaq was a Greek Orthodox Christian.
Aflaq was profound, and his insistence on the vitality of the Muslim character to Arabs was a testament to a generation of nationalists that since then, has all but completely faded. He spoke of Arab unity not as a distant dream but as a practical mechanism to snatch liberty from many sinister hands.
The Baath party was originally a democratic movement, Michel Aflaq even wrote in his books that a united Arab state should be democratic. This was when the Baath party consisted mainly of intellectuals, writers, and poets. Later the party was taken over by generals, and we all know how democratic generals are.
The main slogans of the Baath as proclaimed in 1947 are unity, meaning the creation of a united Arab state; freedom, meaning the liberation of all Arab states from the dominance of imperialism; and socialism, meaning the building of a ?united Arab democratic socialist society.?
"What liberty could be wider and greater than binding oneself to the renaissance of one's nation and its revolution? The liberty we seek is not opposed to legislative measures to curb the exploitations of feudalists, capitalists and opportunists. It is a new and strict liberty which stands against pressure and confusion. Dictatorship is a precarious, unsuitable and self-contradictory system which does not allow the consciousness of the people to grow." ?
? Aflaq in a speech, talking about one of the key Ba'athist tenets; "freedom will come to the Arabs through unity "Today the Ba'athists and Nasserists are nothing but a joke. Not to mention, the Ba'ath party in Syria has turned from nothing but Arab nationalism into Syrian nationalism mixed with religion, hence they distorted its true meaning. The Ba'ath party in Syria is a joke, and so is ASS-ad and Saddam. Heck, the Ba'athists today used to discriminate the Persians which is pretty sad..
The Ba'athists and the Nasserists have gone everything against what Ba'athism and Nasserism stood for.
I consider people like Gamal Abdel Nasser, Michael Aflaq or Shukri al-Quwatli to be great excellent leaders who called for secularism and democracy.
Hey, I'm no fan of Arab nationalism, but I believe it's a strong tool that can unite Arabs. Just take a look on what is happening today, Arabs are killing other Arabs over religion! Only nationalism can fix this. But of course, even education will solve this. Infact it's mainly about education.
Either way..
No Wars in the Middle East = No Arab nationalism
No Israel = No Arab nationalism
No invasion of Iraq = No Arab nationalism
No Ottoman = No Arab nationalism
No Occoupation of any Arab land = No nationalismI'm not a nationalist. I believe in a liberal democratic Arab world that is also anti-imperalist.
Anyway Arab Nationalism was considered a threat for a number of reasons it presented the possibility of small countries being able to unite as a common force, chart their own paths and determine their own sovereignty, remain ?neutral? in the Cold War, and threaten the West?s control of the region?s oil resources and transport routes long considered vital to energy, trade, and military expansionism. In short, Arab Nationalism was a threat precisely because it presented an ?alternative? for the poor nations and peoples of the world to follow, an independent form of nationalism not tied to or dependent upon the imperial powers, instead seeking to unite the ?Third World? ? with its vast natural resource wealth and strategic locations ? and thus, could potentially bring the downfall of Western imperial domination of the world.
Britain and France viewed Arab nationalism ?as a threat to their entire position in the area,? the United States felt that while such nationalism ?represents a threat to the West,? it viewed it ?as an inevitable development which should be channeled, not opposed.? While acknowledging that Nasser would ?remain the leader of Egypt? for some time, the objective of the United States would be to determine ?the degree to which it will actively seek to curb Nasser?s influence and Egyptian activities in the Near East and Africa.
http//dissidentvoice.org/2013/07/the-threat-of-arab-nationalism/
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And Arab nationalism was created by the British through christian Syrian and Lebanese activists, to destroy the Ottoman Empire.
You are overestimating Arab nationalism. It was never a danger to western powers, and never has been. Its a complete failure, and thats why the British concocted it. They knew it can not be applied constructively to Middle Eastern social reality, it serves as a cleaving factor.
Israels establishment has nothing to do with Arab nationalism. It has to do with
- Getting rid of Jews from Europe
- Creating a client state in the Middle East for British power projection in order to
a) Curb other nations aspirations in the region (Russian, French)
b) Secure access to the oil in the regionAnd Arab nationalism was created by the British through christian Syrian and Lebanese activists, to destroy the Ottoman Empire.
Ottoman Empire was a complete joke.
Ottoman committed a genocide against Armenians which will never be forgotten. All Arabs condemn this. I'm glad that Ottoman is gone. In reality the empire itself is very similiar to Shitler's empire.
Actually, Arab nationalism can be created by any one. The first Arab nationalism was a response to the Ottoman occoupation that took place in the Arab world I believe.
You are overestimating Arab nationalism. It was never a danger to western powers, and never has been. Its a complete failure, and thats why the British concocted it. They knew it can not be applied constructively to Middle Eastern social reality, it serves as a cleaving factor.
Oh but it apparently was.
Arab Nationalism was considered a threat for a number of reasons it presented the possibility of small countries being able to unite as a common force, chart their own paths and determine their own sovereignty, remain ?neutral? in the Cold War, and threaten the West?s control of the region?s oil resources and transport routes long considered vital to energy, trade, and military expansionism. In short, Arab Nationalism was a threat precisely because it presented an ?alternative? for the poor nations and peoples of the world to follow, an independent form of nationalism not tied to or dependent upon the imperial powers, instead seeking to unite the ?Third World? ? with its vast natural resource wealth and strategic locations ? and thus, could potentially bring the downfall of Western imperial domination of the world.
Britain and France viewed Arab nationalism ?as a threat to their entire position in the area,? the United States felt that while such nationalism ?represents a threat to the West,? it viewed it ?as an inevitable development which should be channeled, not opposed.? While acknowledging that Nasser would ?remain the leader of Egypt? for some time, the objective of the United States would be to determine ?the degree to which it will actively seek to curb Nasser?s influence and Egyptian activities in the Near East and Africa.
http//dissidentvoice.org/2013/07/the-threat-of-arab-nationalism/
The goverments here in the West are good in dividing people. But they don't use Arab nationalism to do this as nationalism calls for unity, instead they do it through fueling and funding sectarian wars. The British helped the Wahabbis in Saudi-Arabia in coming to power. Now the Wahabbis have been trying to assassinate the Arab nationalists, as the Arab nationalists seeks to get rid of theocracy by calling for secularism/democracy. There's a reason why the Muslim Brotherhood member Mohammed Abdel Latif On 26 October 1954, attempted to assassinate the secular nationalist Nasser while he was delivering a speech in Alexandria to celebrate the British military withdrawal.
While Nasser was in Syria, King Saud planned to have him assassinated on his return flight to Cairo. On 4 March, Nasser addressed the masses in Damascus and waved before them the Saudi check given to Syrian security chief and Nasser supporter Abdel Hamid Sarraj to shoot down Nasser's plane.
As for the rest of what you wrote, I agree. But these are not the only reasons. There is more.
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Israel is a creation of the British Empire set up so that it destroys arab nationalism which was the one movement which might give trouble to the dominion of the British Empire and other Europeans in gtheir shadow and later USA. It is a colonial conflict. It is not a conflict between two people that do not understand each other. That is what the Imperials want to portray and what some swallow. That is what it is till today. There are not two people in conflict but an anticolonial resistance in which a whole population of colonnists have been brainwashed made neurotic so that they can do the job of the empire in killing off a whole indigenous population and then some like preventing any country in the region to make any headway, which they can easily do since they have behind them the forces and seapons and means and special operations of the imperials and their money and also their own nuclear weapons and money twhich they extract from the whole world.
Salaam
Thank you brother. You make excellent points!
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Awni, your view on politics comes straight out of fantasia, sorry. Completely and utter nonsense. U are biased, indoctrinated even.
I will advice you once before I totally ignore you on this subject; go read Arabs and Young Turks by Hasan Kayali for a starter, and educate yourself.
As for the Ottoman Empire; jokes dont last 600 years on top of the world, unless its a very good and successful joke.
I honor the Ottoman Empire for many reasons, despite its ideology and mourn their demise. It should have never happened.
If I would be alive in 1890-1918, I would fight until my death to kill off its enemies.
As for Arab nationalism; go to Ishaq al Yazidji, George Zaydan, and after them, Michel Aflaq's graves and honor them instead, those filthy criminal traitors.
As for Armenians, I regret that, but they got what was coming.
Collaborate with an advancing enemy, who cynically, isnt even interested in you except as a pawn to be utilized in a game of interests? Killing your fellow people which you have lived together for 1000 years due to empty words and promises?
I have no respect for treason. As for the innocent people, again, regrettable and there is no excuse whatsoever to justify that, but I can nuance it. By the fact that muslim Anatolia lost 20% of its population due to the war, for example.
Long live the Ottoman heritage, and their successors, the Turkish, Arab and Kurdish people.
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Awni, your view on politics comes straight out of fantasia, sorry. Completely and utter nonsense. U are biased, indoctrinated even.
I will advice you once before I totally ignore you on this subject; go read Arabs and Young Turks by Hasan Kayali for a starter, and educate yourself.
As for the Ottoman Empire; jokes dont last 600 years on top of the world, unless its a very good and successful joke.
I honor the Ottoman Empire for many reasons, despite its ideology and mourn their demise. It should have never happened.
If I would be alive in 1890-1918, I would fight until my death to kill off its enemies.
As for Arab nationalism; go to Ishaq al Yazidji, George Zaydan, and after them, Michel Aflaq's graves and honor them instead, those filthy criminal traitors.
As for Armenians, I regret that, but they got what was coming.
Collaborate with an advancing enemy, who cynically, isnt even interested in you accept as a pawn to be utilized in a game of interests? Killing your fellow people which you have lived together for 1000 years due to empty words and promises?
I have no respect for treason. As for the innocent people, again, regrettable and there is no excuse whatsoever to justify that, but I can nuance it. By the fact that muslim Anatolia lost 20% of its population due to the war, for example.
Long live the Ottoman heritage, and their successors, the Turkish, Arab and Kurdish people.
Awni, your view on politics comes straight out of fantasia, sorry. Completely and utter nonsense. U are biased, indoctrinated even.
Yeah yeah whatever you say.
I honor the Ottoman Empire for many reasons, despite its ideology and mourn their demise. It should have never happened.
You're honoring a war machine.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_genocide
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocideIf I would be alive in 1890-1918, I would fight until my death to kill off its enemies.
Who are "its" enemies then?
As for Arab nationalism; go to Ishaq al Yazidji, George Zaydan, and after them, Michel Aflaq's graves and honor them instead, those filthy criminal traitors.
Hah, I already mentioned that I'm no big fan of Arab nationalism buddy(Although I see nothing wrong with it). I believe only that it's a tool that can be used to unite and push off Western Imperalism. Other suggestions would be appreciated though. It seems like Arab nationalism is the only thing bringing democracy or atleast secularism in the Arab world. I believe in a democratic Arab world with no theocracy.
As for me, I could care less about Ishaq Al-Yazidji or George Zayan.
I admire people like Michel Aflaq or Gamal Abdel Nasser, as they remind me of Lenin.
When Lenin came to power he made an inspiring speech.. One of them was
"Muslims of Russia?all you whose mosques and prayer houses have been destroyed, whose beliefs and customs have been trampled upon by the tsars and oppressors of Russia your beliefs and practices, your national and cultural institutions are forever free and inviolate. Know that your rights, like those of all the peoples of Russia, are under the mighty protection of the revolution."
Even Michael Aflaq who was an Orthodox Christian respected religion
A day will come when the nationalists will find themselves the only defenders of Islam. They will have to give a special meaning to it if they want the Arab nation to have a good reason for survival.
In Memory of the Arab Prophet (1 April 1943)Europe is as fearful of Islam today as she has been in the past. She now knows that the strength of Islam (which in the past expressed that of the Arabs) has been reborn and has appeared in a new form Arab nationalism.
On the Way of Resurrection (1943)As for Armenians, I regret that, but they got what was coming.
I don't approve any such things whether it be from the Arabs or the Turks or anyone. I have Armenian friends, and some of them who are Syrian today by nationality because their ancestors escaped from Turkey to Syria during Ottoman and lived a new life there. Many Armenians live in Syria today because of Ottoman, and many of the Syrians today have descends of Armenia.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_ez-Zor - Although the Armenians have had a long history in Syria, most arrived there during the Armenian Genocide committed by the Ottoman Empire. The main killing fields of Armenians were located in the Syrian desert of Deir ez-Zor (Euphrates Valley). Half million Armenians were killed and hundreds of thousands fled historic Armenia. The native Arabs didn't hesitate to shelter and support persecuted Armenians. Arabs and Armenians have traditionally had good relations after Arabs sheltered the Armenians during the Armenian Genocide. There was also a minor Arab genocide in Anatolia at the same time.
I condemn all types of genocide whoever that may be from!
Collaborate with an advancing enemy, who cynically, isnt even interested in you accept as a pawn to be utilized in a game of interests? Killing your fellow people which you have lived together for 1000 years due to empty words and promises?
What enemy? Killing my own people? How? Ana Souri-falastini men Yarmouk o ana ma Shab al souri, o ma shab al-falastini.
I'm 110% against Israel.
I have no respect for treason. As for the innocent people, again, regrettable and there is no excuse whatsoever to justify that, but I can nuance it. By the fact that muslim Anatolia lost 20% of its population due to the war, for example.
You don't seem to understand that the reason we condemn Ottoman is because it has committed genocide. I don't approve of any type of genocide - Sorry. I liked that Ottoman was destroying Western forces, but why did it have to switch to committing genocide/massacre?
Long live the Ottoman heritage, and their successors, the Turkish, Arab and Kurdish people.
Ottoman has nothing to do with the Turks, the Arabs, the Kurds or any ethnic groups. The Kurds, the Turks, the Armenians and the Arabs have lived in peace. It's a fact. The Islamic golden age was a lot better than Ottoman empire.
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It has nothing to do with Arab nationalism or Israeli nationalism. Maybe Israeli nationalism. It only had to do with these two is when people mix nationalism with something else(e.g religion)
Yes, the Zionists portray Arabs as their enemies. I totally agree.
It HAS EVERYTHING to do with Arab and Jewish Nationalism..
IDENTITY POLITICS lies upon the foundation of NATIONALISM.
NATIONALISM tries to give a new 'identity' to a group of people..
(Fake) unity through common identity by enticing hatred towards a common enemy..And you're refusing the fact that the ARAB NATIONALISTS portray JEWS as their common enemies ????
Things might be improved IF the "sane" people on both parties realize this scheme and REFUSE to become part of this insanity played out by their politicians using IDENTITY POLITICS strategy.
I'm assuming that it's never going to happen..Too bad... the other choice is massive annihilation and endless conflict..
Anyway this is what Israel wanted all along. They wanted the Jews to be expelled from the Arab-countries, so they could make them come to Israel. But one have to be honest in what really happened.. This was a bad move by the Arabs by expelling the Jews. This is what Israel was pushing for all along.
IT'S NOT ISRAEL, IT"S THE ZIONIST, IT'S THE JEWISH NATIONALISM MOVEMENT.
By your description you seem to be a fan of Nasser, in similar manner as many jews are fan of Theodor Herzl.
That's not true. The Arab nationalists welcomed the Palestinians.
THEN WHY NOT JUST ADMIT THEM AS CITIZEN??
5 Million Palestinian refugees ended up STILL AS REFUGEES AFTER +60 YEARS!
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee_campsWHY NOT FOLLOWS CHILEAN GOVERNMENT STEP? (> 500,000 Palestinian refugees ended up as CHILEAN CITIZEN)
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_community_in_ChileSEE THE DIFFERENCE?
Among those who did not have any specific interest in middle east conflict (Chile)
And those who has..Out of curiosity, what is their "agenda"? The only Arab nationalists that has an agenda of which I could think off is the Syrian nationalist party. They want to make Palestine a part of greater Syria, but they will never be elected.
Like I said this is complicated everyone has their own agenda..
But in essence it's all ABOUT LAND AND POWERBesides the Syrian, Nasser initially tried to extend his area of sovereignty to Canaan/Palestine, Jordan, Sinai and Syria.
He then felt 'satisfied' after he got Sinai.. and said "Good luck to you! with your conflict with Israel" to the rest of the so-called "Arab World"..Kingdom of Jordan / The Hashemites then realized Nasser's agenda and withdrew from the movement.
Because they felt 'threatened' that Nasser driven movement will obliterate Monarchy within his domain.and so on and so on.. too long to be described here
The test case is very simple.
Why not they admit the Palestinian refugees as their own citizen?
In similar to what the Chilean government had done.The conflict will surely end, as there are no more 'refugees'..
But ending the conflict is NOT within their agenda..
Extending POWER and LAND is...Salam / Peace