Mohsannat? A new understanding(very imp)
-
Peace Brother
i shall hold for a while before commenting on Mary being an AHSANAT because i have not studied the issue in detaillooks like we are back to square one. let me analyze.
Brother warner wrote
Also (prohibited to you are) women committed (committed to other men/married to other men) except those whom your right hands possess. Thus hath Allah ordained (prohibitions) against you except for these all others are lawful provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property desiring commitment not lust. Seeing that ye derive benefit from them give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if after a dower is prescribed ye agree mutually (to vary it) there is no blame on you and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise.siki,,,, in 4-24 you write , committed women( committed to other men married women)
1, First why do you have to add something in brackets?
2,,OK! does the God say here ,committed to other men (engaged) like the way it says in 2-235?
3,,,Does it say married women i mean zoj of somebody?
4,,,,You mean, God is prohibiting something and he is vague about it ?
5,,,,,How long does it take to break a commitment and marry some one else?
6,,,,,,You mean, it is an impossibility that you can marry or seek the hand of an engaged women?Brother i do not expect HIM to be so care less about prohibiting something. see 4-23 and find for yourself how precise he is ( Tajamaoo of sisters and Hurmat of female child who is likely to be under your guardian ship when you marry her mother )
brother warner wrote
If any of you have not the means wherewith to marry believing women committed (to you) they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess and Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another wed them with the leave of their owners and give them their dowers according to what is reasonable they be committed not lustful nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock if they fall into shame their punishment is half that for committed women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practice self-restraint and Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.siki,,,,in 4-25 after translating mohsanat as committed, you have added the word to you in bracket? does god say that?
At one place you add committed to other men and right in the next you change 180 degrees by saying to you?
This is exactly the contradiction i am talking about herelets take 5-5
Again the same ,, what is this committed to you? cant somebody take it as committed to someone ? married to some one?
lets see 24-4Brother warner wrote
24-4 And those who launch a charge against a committed woman (any married believing woman or married woman from the people of the book) and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegation) flog them with eighty stripes and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressorssiki..
Now this committal is narrowed down to any married believing women or married from the people of book by you . which is an addition, and the million dollar question,
you mean the unmarried or the unengaged women are not protected through this commandment
[/colorBrother warner wrote
In nal lazina yarmu_nal muhsana_til ga_fila_til mumina_ti luinu_ fid dun ya_ wal a_hirah wa lahum aza_bun azim24-23 Those who slander believing committed woman and also indiscreet are cursed in this life and in the Hereafter for them is a grievous Penalty
siki ,, again the same , you mean it is OK to slander non committed women?
Brother try and replace mohsannat with my understanding INSHALLAH it would make sense.
peace
sikandar -
Peace Samia
BTW, "m7San" does not mean "protected", but rather "immune". M7aS-San is protected, fortified, inaccessible.
Can you explain this in more detail so I can understand better? (?m7San? and ?M7aS-San? I thought they are from the same root)
The word AhSanat used in 2191 and 6612 is it not related to Mohsanat ?
Means to marry is the payment of dower. Since MMA are under a guardian/master who they are assigned to and being dependent on the guardian as I explained in my post, they will not be in a strong position to command a large dower because of their fragile position. They will even require in writing for release from the guardian and in the order of preference they will be the latter option for marriage. These issues will put them in a situation where they will not be able to ask for a larger dower making them easier to marry than a Mohsanat.
-
Peace Siki
I read through your explanation on Mohsanat I guess you have omitted the BOLD part in the following 2 verses in your explanation. Also your post was bit disorganized and difficult to understand, hope you will not get me wrong . May be you should translate again the involved verses and post it again in a more organized format.
4 24
Yusuf Ali Also (prohibited are) women already married except those whom your right hands possess. Thus hath Allah ordained (prohibitions) against you except for these all others are lawful provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property desiring chastity not lust. Seeing that ye derive benefit from them give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if after a dower is prescribed ye agree mutually (to vary it) there is no blame on you and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise.4 25
Yusuf Ali If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess and Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another wed them with the leave of their owners and give them their dowers according to what is reasonable they should be chaste not lustful nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock if they fall into shame their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practice self-restraint and Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful. -
Yes brother ! you are right, the way I have written, is very confusing, I need to rephrase, improve upon what I have written about my understanding.
Let us first write the ayah 4-24 and translate it word by word,
Waalmuhsanatu mina alnnisai illa ma malakat aymanukum kitaba Allahi AAalaykum waohilla lakum ma waraa thalikum an tabtaghoo biamwalikum muhsineena ghayra musafiheena fama istamtaAAtum bihi minhunna faatoohunna ojoorahunna fareedatan wala junaha AAalaykum feema taradaytum bihi min baAAdi alfareedati inna Allaha kana AAaleeman hakeeman
Before I translate it, let us keep in mind the following points
1- in the previous verse, God is listing the prohibited list of women out of Nisa
he is using the word Hurmat for prohibition which gives it the sense of Haram.
2- let us assume for a while that Mohsinnat means the Allowed ones , or one can say hallal. (remember the word Hasan, or Ahsan which has a touch of rightness to permission or permit)Now let us translate word by word .
THE MOHSANNAT OUT OF NISA EXCEPT MMA GOD?S BOOK IS OVER YOU
AND LAWFUL FOR YOU BESIDES THOSE THAT YOU SEEK WITH YOUR
WEALTH IN A FAIR RELATIONSHIP NOT MUSAAFIHEEN THEN WHAT
BENEFIT YOU DERIVE WITH IT FROM THEM THEN GIVE THEM THEIR
DOWERS AS APPOINTED AND NO BLAME UPON YOU WHAT YOU
MUTTALLY AGREE WITH
(you may like to confirm this word by word translation for yourself)
Let me explain,
The mohsanat (HALLAL ones ) out of women EXCEPT MMA God is sending /prescribing a law for you, Beside those (MMA) that you want to have with your wealth (dowers) in some kind of fair (prescribed) relation ship not for illicit sex then what benefit you derive with it out of them, you give them their appointed dowers, and no blame upon you what you both mutually agree upon.
The ayah does not start with a prohibition , the illaa or except is for MMA out of mohsanat and then god is bringing in the law by saying "God?s book is over you" then the sentence continues beside those , this beside those is for MMA for whom ILLAA is used , meaning this law does not apply on MMA
He is permitting you to seek these women in(under a condition) some kind of righteous relationship which involves paying of dower for the benefit or pleasure you would derive out of them and what you both mutually agree upon.peace
sikandar -
Salam Sikandar,
You are forgetting the "wa" at the beginning of 424, which links it with 423 and thus 424 is a continuation of the prohibitions listed in 423.
Following is the literal translation of 423 and 424
423-24 Forbidden on you your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your paternal aunts, and your maternal aunts, and the brothers' daughters, and the sisters' daughters, and your mothers who breast fed you, and your sisters from the lactation/breast feeding, and your women's mothers, and your step-daughters who in your custody from your women whom you entered in them, so if you were not entered in them, so no offense/sin on you, and your sons' allowed/permitted women whom from your backbones/genealogical relations, and that you combine between the two sisters, except what had preceded, that God was/is forgiving, merciful.
And the married from the women except what your rights owned/possessed, God's decree/judgment on you, and became/is permitted/allowed for you, what behind/beyond/besides that, that you ask/desire with your wealths, marrying/to be protected/to be chaste not fornicating/adulterating, so what you enjoyed with it, from them, so give them their rewards/fees/dowries a religious duty/command/stipulation, and no offense/guilt on you in what you mutually agreed with it, from after the religious duty/command/stipulation, that God was/is knowledgeable, wise/judicious.
Read from the beginning of 423 to the end of 424 non stop to get the overall meaning and you will realize that "what beyond/besides that" is referring not to MMA but to ALL THE FORBIDDEN CATEGORIES (the ones in red), meaning one can enter into marriage with all women (including MMA from "mohsanat" other than those from the forbidden categories.
-
peace bro
that is the mistake every body has made , which has lead us to the contradiction in the next verse.
my points4-22 states a prohibit word for wife of your father
4-23 states prohibit again for rest of the category
4-24 does not use any such word . why? it is an independent verse?what stopped God from putting the Mohsannat in the previous verse?when he had already listed 13 ?
The problem arises when we take it for granted and link it with prohibition in the previous verse mistakenly, we realize this when we reach the next verse,,, oh mohsannat are banned ,,,, and then we come back and allot a flimsy self created definition from our own side by calling it the married women,,,, But God is great ,,, he catches you right in the next verse. But when we satisfy ourselves with a flimsy self created explanation, that leads to more mistakes,and then even more mistakes to cover mistakes, till every thing falls apart.this is the beauty of Quran , this is how HE says NO FALSE HOOD CAN ENTER IT
Brother you sort out this wow, for me even if we say AND mohsinnat, ,,, ,it only links the verse in general to emphasise the common subject what is being coverd,,,, NOT the PROHIBITION.
peace
sikandar
-
Peace Sikandar,
The "And" at the beginning of 424 links it to 423 making it a continuation of the prohibited categories. This is solid.
I copied and pasted the incorrect translation of 424 by free-minds by mistake and forgot to correct the meaning of "mohsanat" in that verse. It should read "self protected" instead of "married". I will repost my entire post with the correction
You are forgetting the "wa" at the beginning of 424, which links it with 423 and thus 424 is a continuation of the prohibitions listed in 423.
Following is the literal translation of 423 and 424
423-24 Forbidden on you your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your paternal aunts, and your maternal aunts, and the brothers' daughters, and the sisters' daughters, and your mothers who breast fed you, and your sisters from the lactation/breast feeding, and your women's mothers, and your step-daughters who in your custody from your women whom you entered in them, so if you were not entered in them, so no offense/sin on you, and your sons' allowed/permitted women whom from your backbones/genealogical relations, and that you combine between the two sisters, except what had preceded, that God was/is forgiving, merciful.
And the self-protected from the women except those you committed to by oath, God's decree/judgment on you, and became/is permitted/allowed for you, what behind/beyond/besides that, that you ask/desire with your wealths, marrying/to be protected/to be chaste not fornicating/adulterating, so what you enjoyed with it, from them, so give them their rewards/fees/dowries a religious duty/command/stipulation, and no offense/guilt on you in what you mutually agreed with it, from after the religious duty/command/stipulation, that God was/is knowledgeable, wise/judicious.
Read from the beginning of 423 to the end of 424 non stop to get the overall meaning and you will realize that "what beyond/besides that" is referring not to MMA but to ALL THE FORBIDDEN CATEGORIES (the ones in red), meaning one can enter into marriage with all women (including MMA from "mohsanat" other than those from the forbidden categories.
-
Bro tanveer
Another hint,,,
God is closing the chapter of Prohibition at the end of verse4-23 by saying!
-----, except what had preceded, that God is forgiving, merciful.
Another point to consider ,
If we take the conventional understanding (prohibition of "mohsanat" in 4-24), then this expression should most likely repeat some where in Quran where mohsinnat is used , but unfortunately it is nowhere , every where it is in positive /allowed sense,
Moreover you have not given any answer to my following query yet.
where did you get this self protected from ? and what would you write in the beginning of 4-25 ? when God is allowing you these self protected women
Bro no matter what you do , you cant solve this contradiction ,Mohsinnat is only one consistent word , what ever it means , it means the same every where and apparently there is an absolute contradiction in its usage in 4-24 and 4-25, and the only way out is my understanding .
Brother ! tomorrow i will draw and post my diagram regarding women and their categories described in quran, you use it ,test it verify it , inshallah it would fit in every ayah of quran with an absolute perfection
peace
sikandar -
Peace bro Sikandar,
You are still not paying attention to what I wrote in my posts especially on the other thread. Please focus your discussion only in one thread (preferably the other one, not here).
Read this post again
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13789.msg118323#msg118323
The "mohsanat" in 424 refers to all the categories of "mohsanat" (self protected independent, self protected by marriage, and self protected by commitment to oath) and only the MMA (the ones you are committed to by oath of engagement) out of them are allowed. Saying that "mohsanat" from the women are forbidden except the MMA is NOT FORBIDDING ALL MOHSANAT but forbidding only other than the MMA. This would mean that you cannot be romantically involved with mohsanat unless you get engaged with them.
In 425, "mohsanat" refers to this subset of mohsanat mentioned in 424 i.e. MMA from the mohsanat (the ones you are engaged to) which is the allowed category. Thus 425 is saying that if one cannot find a "mohsana" and get engaged to her for the purpose of marriage, then get engaged to a "fataya" (parent/guardian protected) instead and marry her with her parent/guardian's permission.
THUS THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION. This is solid and I don't know why you cannot get it. Maybe if you read my above referenced post 10 times you will get it.
God is closing the chapter of Prohibition at the end of verse4-23 by saying!
-----, except what had preceded, that God is forgiving, merciful.
"Except what had preceded" refers only to combining two sisters and not all the forbidden categories.
If we take the conventional understanding (prohibition of "mohsanat" in 4-24), then this expression should most likely repeat some where in Quran where mohsinnat is used , but unfortunately it is nowhere , every where it is in positive /allowed sense,
424 DOES NOT PROHIBIT ALL "MOHSANAT" BUT ONLY THOSE OTHER THAN MMA OUT OF THE "MOHSANAT" BECAUSE OF THE WORD "ILLA"/EXCEPT. The MMA in that verse are also "mohsanat" as they are subset of "mohsanat" and are those "mohsanat" that you got engaged to (those you committed to by oath of engagement).
where did you get this self protected from ? and what would you write in the beginning of 4-25 ? when God is allowing you these self protected women
"Mohsanat" means "protected/fortified" and because these women protect their chastity themselves without permission from parents/guardians, they are self-protected. They can be self-protected independent, or self-protected through marriage, or self protected through engagement (MMA)
In the beginning of 425, The God is allowing those mohsanat that we are engaged to (MMA), because per 424 that is the only way one can be romantically involved with the mohsanat.
Bro no matter what you do , you cant solve this contradiction ,Mohsinnat is only one consistent word , what ever it means , it means the same every where and apparently there is an absolute contradiction in its usage in 4-24 and 4-25, and the only way out is my understanding .
THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION.
In 424 "mohsanat" means "self protected" and refers to ALL SELF-PROTECTED EXCEPT MMA by context. In 425 "mohsanat" also means "self protected" but refers only to "MMA from the mohsanat", i.e. those self-protected by commitment to oath of engagement (those "mohsanat" that you are engaged to).
-
Peace bro Sikandar,
I just revised my understanding as it makes more sense. Please see my last post on the other thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13789.msg118468#msg118468
-
Peace All
Attached flow chart depicts my understanding of different women described in Quran. Inshallah it would cater for every situation about all the categories of women, in every aya of Quran. you may like to verify by testing it
please click the attachment to see the Flow chart
peace
siki
-
Peace tanveer
After going through your posts ,this is what i could make out, and is it your final stance?
1-All Mohsinnat banned except MMA who are a category of women that you consider as the ones who are engaged ? or married ? (i am not sure) to one's self under some kind of oath ?
2-you completely changed your understanding , without bothering to even confirm Mohd Asad's version , now tell me one final time weather do you take his version , or ,not? in simple and clear , Yes,
once you spell out your final understanding , we will thrash it out from Quran and then let's move on...
Note--- what is this oath ? ( is it something like what you take when they make you a citizen of America)?
peace
sikandar
-
Peace Sikandar,
You still are not paying full attention to my posts !! Did you miss the following (hopefully not intentionally) ?
The only thing I would like to check is if Classical Arabic dictionaries give "that is" as one of the possible meanings of "aw".
I think you are still not understanding that MMA in 424 are also mohsanat, because they are a subset of mohsanat as evident from the word "illa"/except. They are those mohsanat that one is committed to by oath.
Any pledge/contract/covenant between two parties is an oath. Marriage is a strong pledge/covenant/contract per al-qur'aan (421, 2235, 2237), and is thus a type of oath. When a man gets married to a woman, they commit to each other by oath of marriage.
-
Salaam all,
Salaam warnerSorry for the belated reply. I am not always online these days.
You say
Can you explain this in more detail so I can understand better? (?m7San? and ?M7aS-San? I thought they are from the same root)
Yes they are of the same root. That means they are linked somehow in the meaning, but do not necessarily have the same meaning. However, each word is derived from a different verb
mu7San (immune) from the verb 7aSana
Mu7assan (protected) from the verb 7aSSana
and there is at least one more verb that shares this root, but of a different pattern, and a different meaning.You also say
Means to marry is the payment of dower. Since MMA are under a guardian/master who they are assigned to and being dependent on the guardian as I explained in my post, they will not be in a strong position to command a large dower because of their fragile position. They will even require in writing for release from the guardian and in the order of preference they will be the latter option for marriage. These issues will put them in a situation where they will not be able to ask for a larger dower making them easier to marry than a Mohsanat.
What's a larger dowery? How large? This could be applicable to poor people in general, not necessarily to slaves. And who says that there is an amount for the dowery? It is not the dowery that's the problem. It's the life after marriage.
Also, why would a master "sell" you his slave for peanuts? This is not to ask how in the first place one gets a slave.God has safeguarded slaves liberation by making it an alternative to some obligations (fasting), or a fine for some crimes (manslaughter). Or simply to make good deeds. What about slave males? Can a woman (who has no means to get a better husband) buy herself a slave? And this poor slave girl, is only liberated from slavery to live with a poor husband!!
Lastly, why do you understand (has no means) as financial means? -
Peace Sikandar,
You still are not paying full attention to my posts !! Did you miss the following (hopefully not intentionally) ?
The only thing I would like to check is if Classical Arabic dictionaries give "that is" as one of the possible meanings of "aw".
Brother Tanveer ! i am paying attention to your posts , rather a little more attention than required , please understand what i am trying to tell you here ,
I mean to say that you have changed your complete understanding of a verse and subsequently a very important issue , to suit your theory , because Mohd asad assumes so,,, without verifying ,where as,
you are digging and scrutinizing every thing down to its threads from dictionaries and lane, yet , it has been three days that you have not bothered to check or confirm an alternate meaning of a simple Arabic word "AW"
so please confirm , and confirm your final stance ,I have grasped your understanding for mohsinnat and mma , i just wanted to confirm it from you weather it was final?
I needed to have a clearly defined set of parameters for the final battle, to bring out the truth.
As for MMA , being a sub set of mohsinnat, does anyone has doubts about it ? Am i not saying this since start ? Brother ! every Nisa except the prohibited 14, and some not recommended, are Mohsinnat , making every category, a sub set of Mohsinnat (including MMA),
I think you did not bother to click on my attached flow chart to take a look.peace
sikandar -
Peace samia
Good to have you back sis.You make interesting point regarding a relation between a female and her male slave, but unfortunately we don't find any such thing in Koranic verses.The reasons, what i can think of are, probably the same what we have against polyandrous relationships. However i think, if she wishes to marry one , and this is her only marriage , there should not be any problem.
your point regarding, "A poor slave,ending up marrying a poor man" is correct, but if we take a look around , unfortunately that is the case even with poor free girls , most of them marry a poor man except when she is extra ordinary and picked up by a relatively richer man. This chance holds good for an outstanding fatayat of MMA as well. she is actually being upgraded from a poor slave to a poor free believing women.
you are right about" affording to marry a mohsinnat " , it is ISTATTAAT " which is general , not necessarily financial.
what i understand, "God is saying that if somehow anyone , due to any reason , is unable to marry a mohsinnat,then God recommends marrying a young female slave rather than committing fornication" .This verse is recommending , or approving a possible alternate which God likes but does not want to enforce."Master freeing or letting go off a slave", yes most of the masters would not do that , that is why God is guiding them , and in another aya God is appreciating, and saying that i like such gestures of momineen and would reward them.
These are just my thoughts , may it help, i was avoiding discussion on "Philosophy behind slavery", because that is likely to open up a Pandora's box, and the spirit of the thread may be lost.
"which is to correct or improve an important understanding of a Koranic ayah".
You must have noticed that up till now i have not given any arguments in support of slaves from Hadith /history , which is loaded with irrefutable evidence.
peace
sikandar
-
Peace Samia
Thanks for explaining.
Ma Malakat Aymanakum(MMA) are not slaves . I have explained my understanding in this link. http//freeminds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13789.msg118187#msg118187
I wish you will contribute on the Ma Malakat Aymanakum thread as well. We miss your expert opinion there.Brothers, Siki and Tanveer will agree with me.
Does the Quran say it is necessary to pay the guardian/master to release the MMA for marriage? Quran instructs the guardian/master to give in writing for the release if requested by MMA.
24 32
Yusuf Ali Marry those among you who are single or the virtuous ones among your slaves male or female if they are in poverty Allah will give them means out of His grace for Allah encompasseth all and He knoweth all things.Wa ankihul aya_ma_ minkum was sa_lihina min iba_dikum wa ima_ikum iy yaku_nu_ fuqara_ a yugnihimul la_hu min fadlih wal la_hu wa_siun alim
A lady can marry her slave according to the verse.
I agree with you on the explanation on ?means?. It can be other than financial too.
From what I understand payment of dower is compulsory for marriage. Can the girl/woman demand the value of the dower?This is not totally relevant for this topic. But can you explain the following verse in relation to Ma Malakat Aymanakum.
33 33
Yusuf Ali To (benefit) everyone We have appointed sharers and heirs to property left by parents and relatives. To those also to whom your right hand was pledged give their due portion for truly Allah is Witness to all things.Wa likullin ja'alna_ mawa_liya mimma_ tarakal wa_lida_ni wal aqrabu_n(a), wallazina'aqadat aima_nukum fa a_tu_hum nasibahum, innalla_ha ka_na'ala_ kulli syai'in syahida_(n).
-
Salam bro Sikandar,
it has been three days that you have not bothered to check or confirm an alternate meaning of a simple Arabic word "AW"
so please confirm , and confirm your final stance ,Right now I have access only to the PRL scans of Lane Lexicon (http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm), and I could not find "aw" there. That is why I was asking others who might have access to relevant resources.
-
Peace Siki
Siki God is saying that if somehow anyone , due to any reason , is unable to marry a mohsinnat,then God recommends marrying a young female slave rather than committing fornication" .This verse is recommending , or approving a possible alternate which God likes but does not want to enforce.
The verse referred to above uses the term Ma Malakat Aymanakum and not young female slave (aMatha in 2221 ). Your female slave is Imaaikum as in 2432. Why do you think the Quraan differentiates between female slave and MMA?