Mohsannat? A new understanding(very imp)
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Peace Sikandar,
The "And" at the beginning of 424 links it to 423 making it a continuation of the prohibited categories. This is solid.
I copied and pasted the incorrect translation of 424 by free-minds by mistake and forgot to correct the meaning of "mohsanat" in that verse. It should read "self protected" instead of "married". I will repost my entire post with the correction
You are forgetting the "wa" at the beginning of 424, which links it with 423 and thus 424 is a continuation of the prohibitions listed in 423.
Following is the literal translation of 423 and 424
423-24 Forbidden on you your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your paternal aunts, and your maternal aunts, and the brothers' daughters, and the sisters' daughters, and your mothers who breast fed you, and your sisters from the lactation/breast feeding, and your women's mothers, and your step-daughters who in your custody from your women whom you entered in them, so if you were not entered in them, so no offense/sin on you, and your sons' allowed/permitted women whom from your backbones/genealogical relations, and that you combine between the two sisters, except what had preceded, that God was/is forgiving, merciful.
And the self-protected from the women except those you committed to by oath, God's decree/judgment on you, and became/is permitted/allowed for you, what behind/beyond/besides that, that you ask/desire with your wealths, marrying/to be protected/to be chaste not fornicating/adulterating, so what you enjoyed with it, from them, so give them their rewards/fees/dowries a religious duty/command/stipulation, and no offense/guilt on you in what you mutually agreed with it, from after the religious duty/command/stipulation, that God was/is knowledgeable, wise/judicious.
Read from the beginning of 423 to the end of 424 non stop to get the overall meaning and you will realize that "what beyond/besides that" is referring not to MMA but to ALL THE FORBIDDEN CATEGORIES (the ones in red), meaning one can enter into marriage with all women (including MMA from "mohsanat" other than those from the forbidden categories.
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Bro tanveer
Another hint,,,
God is closing the chapter of Prohibition at the end of verse4-23 by saying!
-----, except what had preceded, that God is forgiving, merciful.
Another point to consider ,
If we take the conventional understanding (prohibition of "mohsanat" in 4-24), then this expression should most likely repeat some where in Quran where mohsinnat is used , but unfortunately it is nowhere , every where it is in positive /allowed sense,
Moreover you have not given any answer to my following query yet.
where did you get this self protected from ? and what would you write in the beginning of 4-25 ? when God is allowing you these self protected women
Bro no matter what you do , you cant solve this contradiction ,Mohsinnat is only one consistent word , what ever it means , it means the same every where and apparently there is an absolute contradiction in its usage in 4-24 and 4-25, and the only way out is my understanding .
Brother ! tomorrow i will draw and post my diagram regarding women and their categories described in quran, you use it ,test it verify it , inshallah it would fit in every ayah of quran with an absolute perfection
peace
sikandar -
Peace bro Sikandar,
You are still not paying attention to what I wrote in my posts especially on the other thread. Please focus your discussion only in one thread (preferably the other one, not here).
Read this post again
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13789.msg118323#msg118323
The "mohsanat" in 424 refers to all the categories of "mohsanat" (self protected independent, self protected by marriage, and self protected by commitment to oath) and only the MMA (the ones you are committed to by oath of engagement) out of them are allowed. Saying that "mohsanat" from the women are forbidden except the MMA is NOT FORBIDDING ALL MOHSANAT but forbidding only other than the MMA. This would mean that you cannot be romantically involved with mohsanat unless you get engaged with them.
In 425, "mohsanat" refers to this subset of mohsanat mentioned in 424 i.e. MMA from the mohsanat (the ones you are engaged to) which is the allowed category. Thus 425 is saying that if one cannot find a "mohsana" and get engaged to her for the purpose of marriage, then get engaged to a "fataya" (parent/guardian protected) instead and marry her with her parent/guardian's permission.
THUS THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION. This is solid and I don't know why you cannot get it. Maybe if you read my above referenced post 10 times you will get it.
God is closing the chapter of Prohibition at the end of verse4-23 by saying!
-----, except what had preceded, that God is forgiving, merciful.
"Except what had preceded" refers only to combining two sisters and not all the forbidden categories.
If we take the conventional understanding (prohibition of "mohsanat" in 4-24), then this expression should most likely repeat some where in Quran where mohsinnat is used , but unfortunately it is nowhere , every where it is in positive /allowed sense,
424 DOES NOT PROHIBIT ALL "MOHSANAT" BUT ONLY THOSE OTHER THAN MMA OUT OF THE "MOHSANAT" BECAUSE OF THE WORD "ILLA"/EXCEPT. The MMA in that verse are also "mohsanat" as they are subset of "mohsanat" and are those "mohsanat" that you got engaged to (those you committed to by oath of engagement).
where did you get this self protected from ? and what would you write in the beginning of 4-25 ? when God is allowing you these self protected women
"Mohsanat" means "protected/fortified" and because these women protect their chastity themselves without permission from parents/guardians, they are self-protected. They can be self-protected independent, or self-protected through marriage, or self protected through engagement (MMA)
In the beginning of 425, The God is allowing those mohsanat that we are engaged to (MMA), because per 424 that is the only way one can be romantically involved with the mohsanat.
Bro no matter what you do , you cant solve this contradiction ,Mohsinnat is only one consistent word , what ever it means , it means the same every where and apparently there is an absolute contradiction in its usage in 4-24 and 4-25, and the only way out is my understanding .
THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION.
In 424 "mohsanat" means "self protected" and refers to ALL SELF-PROTECTED EXCEPT MMA by context. In 425 "mohsanat" also means "self protected" but refers only to "MMA from the mohsanat", i.e. those self-protected by commitment to oath of engagement (those "mohsanat" that you are engaged to).
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Peace bro Sikandar,
I just revised my understanding as it makes more sense. Please see my last post on the other thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13789.msg118468#msg118468
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Peace All
Attached flow chart depicts my understanding of different women described in Quran. Inshallah it would cater for every situation about all the categories of women, in every aya of Quran. you may like to verify by testing it
please click the attachment to see the Flow chart
peace
siki
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Peace tanveer
After going through your posts ,this is what i could make out, and is it your final stance?
1-All Mohsinnat banned except MMA who are a category of women that you consider as the ones who are engaged ? or married ? (i am not sure) to one's self under some kind of oath ?
2-you completely changed your understanding , without bothering to even confirm Mohd Asad's version , now tell me one final time weather do you take his version , or ,not? in simple and clear , Yes,
once you spell out your final understanding , we will thrash it out from Quran and then let's move on...
Note--- what is this oath ? ( is it something like what you take when they make you a citizen of America)?
peace
sikandar
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Peace Sikandar,
You still are not paying full attention to my posts !! Did you miss the following (hopefully not intentionally) ?
The only thing I would like to check is if Classical Arabic dictionaries give "that is" as one of the possible meanings of "aw".
I think you are still not understanding that MMA in 424 are also mohsanat, because they are a subset of mohsanat as evident from the word "illa"/except. They are those mohsanat that one is committed to by oath.
Any pledge/contract/covenant between two parties is an oath. Marriage is a strong pledge/covenant/contract per al-qur'aan (421, 2235, 2237), and is thus a type of oath. When a man gets married to a woman, they commit to each other by oath of marriage.
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Salaam all,
Salaam warnerSorry for the belated reply. I am not always online these days.
You say
Can you explain this in more detail so I can understand better? (?m7San? and ?M7aS-San? I thought they are from the same root)
Yes they are of the same root. That means they are linked somehow in the meaning, but do not necessarily have the same meaning. However, each word is derived from a different verb
mu7San (immune) from the verb 7aSana
Mu7assan (protected) from the verb 7aSSana
and there is at least one more verb that shares this root, but of a different pattern, and a different meaning.You also say
Means to marry is the payment of dower. Since MMA are under a guardian/master who they are assigned to and being dependent on the guardian as I explained in my post, they will not be in a strong position to command a large dower because of their fragile position. They will even require in writing for release from the guardian and in the order of preference they will be the latter option for marriage. These issues will put them in a situation where they will not be able to ask for a larger dower making them easier to marry than a Mohsanat.
What's a larger dowery? How large? This could be applicable to poor people in general, not necessarily to slaves. And who says that there is an amount for the dowery? It is not the dowery that's the problem. It's the life after marriage.
Also, why would a master "sell" you his slave for peanuts? This is not to ask how in the first place one gets a slave.God has safeguarded slaves liberation by making it an alternative to some obligations (fasting), or a fine for some crimes (manslaughter). Or simply to make good deeds. What about slave males? Can a woman (who has no means to get a better husband) buy herself a slave? And this poor slave girl, is only liberated from slavery to live with a poor husband!!
Lastly, why do you understand (has no means) as financial means? -
Peace Sikandar,
You still are not paying full attention to my posts !! Did you miss the following (hopefully not intentionally) ?
The only thing I would like to check is if Classical Arabic dictionaries give "that is" as one of the possible meanings of "aw".
Brother Tanveer ! i am paying attention to your posts , rather a little more attention than required , please understand what i am trying to tell you here ,
I mean to say that you have changed your complete understanding of a verse and subsequently a very important issue , to suit your theory , because Mohd asad assumes so,,, without verifying ,where as,
you are digging and scrutinizing every thing down to its threads from dictionaries and lane, yet , it has been three days that you have not bothered to check or confirm an alternate meaning of a simple Arabic word "AW"
so please confirm , and confirm your final stance ,I have grasped your understanding for mohsinnat and mma , i just wanted to confirm it from you weather it was final?
I needed to have a clearly defined set of parameters for the final battle, to bring out the truth.
As for MMA , being a sub set of mohsinnat, does anyone has doubts about it ? Am i not saying this since start ? Brother ! every Nisa except the prohibited 14, and some not recommended, are Mohsinnat , making every category, a sub set of Mohsinnat (including MMA),
I think you did not bother to click on my attached flow chart to take a look.peace
sikandar -
Peace samia
Good to have you back sis.You make interesting point regarding a relation between a female and her male slave, but unfortunately we don't find any such thing in Koranic verses.The reasons, what i can think of are, probably the same what we have against polyandrous relationships. However i think, if she wishes to marry one , and this is her only marriage , there should not be any problem.
your point regarding, "A poor slave,ending up marrying a poor man" is correct, but if we take a look around , unfortunately that is the case even with poor free girls , most of them marry a poor man except when she is extra ordinary and picked up by a relatively richer man. This chance holds good for an outstanding fatayat of MMA as well. she is actually being upgraded from a poor slave to a poor free believing women.
you are right about" affording to marry a mohsinnat " , it is ISTATTAAT " which is general , not necessarily financial.
what i understand, "God is saying that if somehow anyone , due to any reason , is unable to marry a mohsinnat,then God recommends marrying a young female slave rather than committing fornication" .This verse is recommending , or approving a possible alternate which God likes but does not want to enforce."Master freeing or letting go off a slave", yes most of the masters would not do that , that is why God is guiding them , and in another aya God is appreciating, and saying that i like such gestures of momineen and would reward them.
These are just my thoughts , may it help, i was avoiding discussion on "Philosophy behind slavery", because that is likely to open up a Pandora's box, and the spirit of the thread may be lost.
"which is to correct or improve an important understanding of a Koranic ayah".
You must have noticed that up till now i have not given any arguments in support of slaves from Hadith /history , which is loaded with irrefutable evidence.
peace
sikandar
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Peace Samia
Thanks for explaining.
Ma Malakat Aymanakum(MMA) are not slaves . I have explained my understanding in this link. http//freeminds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13789.msg118187#msg118187
I wish you will contribute on the Ma Malakat Aymanakum thread as well. We miss your expert opinion there.Brothers, Siki and Tanveer will agree with me.
Does the Quran say it is necessary to pay the guardian/master to release the MMA for marriage? Quran instructs the guardian/master to give in writing for the release if requested by MMA.
24 32
Yusuf Ali Marry those among you who are single or the virtuous ones among your slaves male or female if they are in poverty Allah will give them means out of His grace for Allah encompasseth all and He knoweth all things.Wa ankihul aya_ma_ minkum was sa_lihina min iba_dikum wa ima_ikum iy yaku_nu_ fuqara_ a yugnihimul la_hu min fadlih wal la_hu wa_siun alim
A lady can marry her slave according to the verse.
I agree with you on the explanation on ?means?. It can be other than financial too.
From what I understand payment of dower is compulsory for marriage. Can the girl/woman demand the value of the dower?This is not totally relevant for this topic. But can you explain the following verse in relation to Ma Malakat Aymanakum.
33 33
Yusuf Ali To (benefit) everyone We have appointed sharers and heirs to property left by parents and relatives. To those also to whom your right hand was pledged give their due portion for truly Allah is Witness to all things.Wa likullin ja'alna_ mawa_liya mimma_ tarakal wa_lida_ni wal aqrabu_n(a), wallazina'aqadat aima_nukum fa a_tu_hum nasibahum, innalla_ha ka_na'ala_ kulli syai'in syahida_(n).
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Salam bro Sikandar,
it has been three days that you have not bothered to check or confirm an alternate meaning of a simple Arabic word "AW"
so please confirm , and confirm your final stance ,Right now I have access only to the PRL scans of Lane Lexicon (http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm), and I could not find "aw" there. That is why I was asking others who might have access to relevant resources.
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Peace Siki
Siki God is saying that if somehow anyone , due to any reason , is unable to marry a mohsinnat,then God recommends marrying a young female slave rather than committing fornication" .This verse is recommending , or approving a possible alternate which God likes but does not want to enforce.
The verse referred to above uses the term Ma Malakat Aymanakum and not young female slave (aMatha in 2221 ). Your female slave is Imaaikum as in 2432. Why do you think the Quraan differentiates between female slave and MMA?
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Peace Siki
The verse referred to above uses the term Ma Malakat Aymanakum and not young female slave (aMatha in 2221 ). Your female slave is Imaaikum as in 2432. Why do you think the Quraan differentiates between female slave and MMA?
peace warner
I sincerely hope that God will steer us in the right direction.
1- Brother ! the link you posted regarding your understanding of MMA, the page is missing , could you kindly P.M. me the text if you can grab it?
2 -Brother ! due to my present understanding , i was referring to ayah 24-33 Not 24-32
24-33 And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful
Your verse 24-32 uses the word "Abaadakum and AIMAMakum" about which i shall try and convey my understanding.
The word "Abaad" is consistently used in quran for the one, who OBEYS. God has used this word for his righteous servants ,like prophets in most of the verses . But this term has also been used for the servants as well ,who obey us , or follow our commands, carry out our orders etc. The people who obey are TAABAEEN", and what they do is IBBADAT" when we do IBaddat to Allah , we take it as rituals , but basically we are submitting and are following his command , and hence are "Tabaeen" to him.
Similarly any one who follows our command/instructions "is Abaad" for us, and what i understand "Our Servants" (not slaves) fall into this category.
When we say ABAAD , it is a generic term used, both for Male and Female, but to differentiate between the two, the word AMMTA, is used for female servant.
I searched this word ,and i could find only two verses 2-221and 24-32(AMMAekum) , where you are likely to misunderstand them as female slaves. (a lot of translators have done so) But taking it as a "female servant" is more appropriate because in both ayats they are linked with ABAAD" and i am quite certain that "ABBAD" is a servant (like what we have these days) who work for us , NOT a salve.(i checked all the occurrences of ABAAD)3 - I agree with you regarding " a "Written Deed " "to set these people(MMA) free.
4 - Addionally one more word is being translated as servants in Quran, "GHILMAN" , which God is describing in Quran as some pure specie , which at this time we have no knowledge about . What constitutes under that definition, only God knows what he commits to "Saleheen's" service in paradise .
learning must go on
peace
sikandar
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Peace Sikandar, Warner, all,
According to Lane Lexicon, "imaa" means female slaves, not servants, and "3ibaad" can mean male servants or male slaves (both servants and slaves obey). Thus according to context, 2432 is referring to male and female SLAVES and not servants ("imaaikum" can only mean female slaves and thus "3ibaadikum" in 2432 can only mean male slaves). In other places in al-qur'aan, however, "3bad" means servant also, depending on the context.
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Peace Sikandar, Warner, all,
According to Lane Lexicon, "imaa" means female slaves, not servants, and "3ibaad" can mean male servants or male slaves (both servants and slaves obey). Thus according to context, 2432 is referring to male and female SLAVES and not servants ("imaaikum" can only mean female slaves and thus "3ibaadikum" in 2432 can only mean male slaves). In other places in al-qur'aan, however, "3bad" means servant also, depending on the context.
Peace Tanveer
We must understand , that a slave is a servant rather a little more than servant , But a servant is not a Slave. As God has used ABAAD for his servants most of the time,so it is up to you weather you call "Suleheen" , Prophets and Messengers as his slaves instead of servants,
Come on friend ! Try and visualize the subtle difference between the two.
As i said , that AMTaa is attached with Abadd when ever God wants to differentiate, female servant, from the general word "ABAAD".
i think you can very well understand the words . TAABAEEN, TAABEE, ibAADA, ibADAT,etc , we use them in Urdu , please verify its usage from Quran , and tell me weather it gives an impression of BEING A SLAVE ANY WHERE IN QURAN? other than the places where you are trying to take the benefit of doubt. what you are doing is ,"If X are 2 in no, and Y's are 90, when mixed,would or should make it an X , where as when two are mixed it should be overwhelmingly "Y" There are all the chance for 2 to be a wrong , but a repetition of 90 cannot be a mistake".
Lets not blindly follow what is written in lane. As Brother Yasin said , and i fully concur with him, THAT QURAN IS ITS OWN DICTIONARY. And Brother ! i rely on it the most with the help of common sense,,
PEACE
sikandar
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Peace everyone
Peace Siki , Tanveer
What comes to my mind when we say servant is someone who works for a pay/salary, more like an employee, and slave is someone bought for a price and therefore bonded.
As far as I know the paid employee (servant) category is not identified in the Quraan. But we see freeing of a neck/slave (rukaba) mentioned in the Quran. So do you think we can define slave as someone completely bound to a master without freedom.
I guess Tabieen means ?follower? and maybe to mean ?dependent?. But is this term used in relation to servant or slave in the Quran ?
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Peace Siki
24 32
Marry those among you who are single or the virtuous ones among your slaves male or female if they are in poverty Allah will give them means out of His grace for Allah encompasseth all and He knoweth all things.Wa ankihul aya_ma_ minkum was sa_lihina min iba_dikum wa ima_ikum iy yaku_nu_ fuqara_ a yugnihimul la_hu min fadlih wal la_hu wa_siun alim
24 33
Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your MMA ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum) give them such a deed if ye know any good in them; yea give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them yet after such compulsion is Allah Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (to them).Wal yastafifil lazina la_ yajidu_na nika_han hat ta_ yugniyahumul la_hu min fadlih wal lazina yabtagu_nal kita_ba mim ma_ malakat aima_nukum faka_tibu_hum in alimtum fihim hairaw wa a_tu_hum min ma_lil la_hil lazi a_ta_kum wa la_ tukrihu_ fataya_tikum alal biga_i in aradna tahas sunal litabtagu_ aradal haya_tid dun ya_ wa may yukrih huna fa in nal la_ha mim badi ikra_hin na gafu_rur rahim
There is no dispute with regard to your earlier post other than there is no mention of Mohsinat in verses 2432 or 2433. But I guess the ?single? for ayyaama in 2432 should be ?Widows? instead of single in the above Y Alis translation. Although I have seen this only in one dictionary I guess Tanveer will be in a better position to clarify.
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peace warner
Taabaeen " is used in 24-31 for servants , in addition to MMA , when women are being addressed to take care of their dress code .
As for translations of 24-32 and 33 , it is been up to the translator , how he perceives the words,i have seen translators translating MMA as servants and Abaad as slave , and exactly opposite as well.
I guess three of us here are in a better position to sort out this matter , i don't think those people had the tools , or time to dig deep into the spirit of just one,or two words,,so let's purify it.
i am utterly disappointed with these people and would never trust any of them , until and unless i read Arabic and compare at least 8 of them,and even then i would recommend using a combination of the ultimate dictionary (the quran itself) and ones own judgment. As for Fatayat,
The only two occurrences are consistent with MMA in the same verse , so if we take MMA to be All the slaves,then it is more plausible that these are young female slave girls,whom God is recommending as an alternate for marriage. Moreover God commanding Masters not to force these girls in to prostitution is nearer to reality rather than "parent protected young girls theory,as there would be very remote chances for a father to force his little girl or niece into such a thing . Last ,but not the least ,
All mighty reducing the punishment for these (Fatayat)makes perfect sense.sikandar
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Peace Warner, Sikandar, all,
According to Lane Lexicon, "ayama" means persons (irrespective of gender) who do not have a spouse, and can be both never married or married before. Thus it would include never married, divorced, and widowed, and all these categories are single. Hence I think that it should be translated as "single" in 2432.
In addition to that, I think it should be "marry off" and not "marry" in 2432, but Samia can give a better opinion on what it should be according to Classical Arabic grammar in that particular verse.
"Ma malakat aymanukum" could be from "mohsanat" (424), or from "fatayat" (425), thus the term does not refer only to "slave girls". It refers to those whom you commit to by oath (when you possess someone you commit to them to fulfill your responsibilities towards them), and they could be both from "mohsanat" or "fatayat". In case of "mohsanat", it would refer to those "mohsanat" whom you commit to/possess by oath, and in case of "fatayat", it would refer to those "fatayat" whom you commit to/possess by oath.
In my understanding, "fatayat" means "parent/guardian protected/dependent" as it has been used in contrast with "mohsanat"/self-protected in 425. The mohsanat protect their chastity themselves, either while being free/independent or by getting married or by entering into an oath with someone. The fatayat are dependent on someone else for protection of their chastity, either on parents in case of biological children that are still dependent on them, or on guardian in case of adopted children that are still dependent OR SLAVES.
According to Lane Lexicon, "fatayat" means "young women, concealed, or kept within, or behind the curtain, in the house or tent", which implies parent/family protected, and also means "female slaves", who would be guardian/master protected/dependent. Thus "fatayat" includes both female slaves and young women still dependent on their parents/family/guardians, and both meanings fit in 425. The MMA from the fatayat would be those dependent young women OR female slaves, with whom one has made an oath to possess them/commit to them, which in context of 425 would be oath to marry them.
"Bigha" means to "seek to exceed the legal limits"/"prostitution and CANNOT mean marriage. Thus in 2433, we are being asked not to force our fatayat into prostitution. I therefore agree that "fatayat" in 2433 can mean "female slaves", but it can still mean "young parent/family dependent girls" also because there are instances in corrupt societies where fathers/older relatives have forced their female family members, including daughters, into prostitution.
The "slave" meaning, however, does not apply nowadays because al-qur'aan does not give us any laws about enslaving people, so hopefully in the last 1400 years, all the slaves should have been liberated by now !