Hajj means Annual Global Debate--Explanation using Tasreef/Crossreference
-
Salaam Arnold
you wrote
But as I have told, these are all man-made ideas on what Allah demands. Allah says in the Quran that WE are the focus.
2094 Aaron said, "O Son of my mother! Don't get mad at me, nor treat me harshly. I feared that you would say, ?You have let the Children of Israel divide into parties and sects." (Moses accepted this explanation since sectarianism is no less a crime than idol worship in any form. Seizing the beard and head pertains to harsh interrogation 7150).
In fact Moses did not accept this explanation. In a following verse 2097, he showed Aaron what he should have done, and proved him wrong, as there was no division amongst banu Israel Moses burned the calf and scattered its particles in the sea.
-
Of course he destroyed it, but he could have only destroyed after he showed that this idol was falsehood. People accepted it being destroyed, as otherwise they could have simply rebelled aginst it and killed Moses, but they didn't. This shows that Moses convinced them through logical arguments that their idol was false. The verse doesn't say he disagreed with Aaron, it only says that he destroyed the idol. The destruction is because the people changed themselves and accepted the idol being false. Believing in One Creator is accepting Reality.
When Abraham destroyed the idols, his people still not believed him and persecuted him. Moses remained his status of leadership, this could only be maintained through violence or that he convinced his people. Since violence is out of the question, it means he convinced his people through logic. The Quran is full with logical statements on the image of God.
So Unity of his people was put on top, so he could reform them again to the correct view. Otherwise he would have lost his people and all would be in vain. The people of Moses was liberated so they would be no longer slaves, they were not freed so that they could believe in God alone, this belief can also be sustained while being slaves.
Unity and righteousness of a society is thus the main point for Revelation...
-
No these are not problems in my thinking, these are problems in how you think I interpretate things. Let's explain my view a bit better
Quote from progod on Yesterday at 043120 AM
The Quran says most poeple will not believe but you say that all people will eventually come to believe.The Quran says also that eventually people will flock to the Deen and also that it will prevail over all other systems of life.
Quote from progod on Yesterday at 043120 AM
The Quran says that those who believe that hell is temporary (in your scenario war and misery on earth) are deluded in their faith.You have 2 states of Hell, one here on Earth, expressed in misery of societies, as for example, and you have a state of existence called Hell in the Next Life. Also the people who believe Hell is temporarely, believe this in a state of denial/kafr, and believe they can come out of Hell while still being in this state of denial/kafr, this is why they will never come out of it.
-
So which is right. idhaa jaaoo ilaa deen afwaajan can also mean If and not when.
Secondly, it says when/if people enter God's religion in crowds. That does not mean all men. That just means alot of people will, or MIGHT. -
Where do you get your idea of two Hells. The Quran only speaks of one and says that it is eternal.
As for those who questioned you about Salaa or Salan. It means the hind part or hock of a horse or any other animal, but especially the horse. From which derived sallaa as to follow right behind. It is like saying 'to hock' or 'to hind' and comes from the context of racing horses but can be applied to following closely or adhering to anything. As for bond. I still doubt this meaning. I have never seen it in any Arabic lexicon, in english/arabic or arabic/arabic.
Godbless,
Anwar -
-
peace Pimp, I have to agree with Ayman. This idea of a global debate seems kinda silly. It's too optimistic and too idealistic. Even if there are people from all over the world who want to come and have a debate in a certain location, what will be the outcome of it? Will anyone actually learn?
But if that is what Hajj is, then this forum is your global debate, isn't it? I think the internet makes it very easy. Instead of an annual global debate, we have a constant global debate. -
Peace,
The Quran says that most will not be momin, those that are convinced. I believe that not everyone will believe the Quran is from God, but I do believe they agree with its principals. Just like in Holland we have a Christian government, most people in Holland are not Christians, but they certainly agree with the Christians ideals. The same will be with the Quranic ideals being taken over by non-Muslim countries.
And one of my beliefs is also that Mankind will be one again, although this lays far in the future. First Islamic States will reform themselves, then eventually non-Muslim countries will accept them as arbiters, just like the UN-conventions is now. Hajj is indeed meant for many things. And our discussions are part of them. Hajj is for improvement of society on all levels.
As for Salat, I have studied dictionaries on this, and many ideas can be attained from it. I believe the 'following of the Divine Laws' is the best understanding, but life is a never-ending research...
-
Peace,
Very noble but it sounds like this is coming from your hopes and dreams and not from the Quran. Secondly where to you see God's laws in Salat. It one thing to say that it means 'to follow' and another to say that it means 'to follow God's laws.' Don't you think you are adding to waht is said and being a little fanciful.
Godbless,
Anwar -
933 He it is Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the True Religion (DEEN = The System of Life), that He may cause it to prevail over all religions and systems of life, even though the idolaters may detest it. (931-33, 1448, 1848, 4828, 619).
3110 (Since you have been empowered by the Qur?an), you are indeed the best suited Community that has been raised up for the good of mankind. You shall enjoin the Right, by example and close the doors to Wrong, by example, since you have conviction in Allah (and accept His Final Word as the Criterion of Right and Wrong 34. The Qur?an educates you on the Permanent Moral Value System and distinguishes clearly what the otherwise vague terms of ?right? and ?wrong?, and ?good? and ?evil? would mean). Now if the People of the Scripture had attained this kind of belief, it would have been for their own good. Some of them do embrace belief, while most of them continue to drift away.
I believe this is the Message of the Quran, and I don't go waste my time in dreaming. As for Salat is following Allah's Laws, this is explained through 2441. Allah uses the Quran to explain His definitions.
-
Peace,
You seem very convinced. Almost so much so that you seem to me somewhat unapproachable. But despite that can you explain what this means
Allah uses the Quran to explain His definitions.
This doesn't seem to make sense to me. Could you explain this to me without being condescending (as I see this coming next, as I'm sure you are quite annoyed with me).
It seems you are a followr of the QXP project. Very good. I think it is a good work, though I definetely see some unnecessary embellishments in in, all the same.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace
Some birds fly in formations;mostly in ?V? formations. It helps to conserve energy of the group (the wing muscles get less tired and also the heart rate drops) and increases flying efficiency of migratory birds flying thousands of miles to escape harsh winters. Also the formation helps communication between the group and if a bird is lost it will be easily noticeable. In a group its possible there can be experienced birds helping in the navigation maybe with the help of sun and the stars. The lead bird keeps changing since it gets more tired than the rest and is replaced by another bird in the tail. Formations are actually a fascinating thing and with much science involved and it is much more than mere following.
Salaam Anwar
Can you please do us a favor and explain verse 2441, for us to get a better understanding whether the verse communicates that salat is following closely.
-
peace,
You seem very convinced. Almost so much so that you seem to me somewhat unapproachable.
Because I can answer the people's question that shows I have thought out things suddenly I'm almost unapproachable. You are a person that makes a lot of assumptions, judgements, that are really unfounded and based on emotions it seems. You predict my future behaviour and so on. No dear Anwer, I'm not annoyed by you, only you sadden me a bit with such unneccessary assumptions that are unfounded. You reflect to much on yourself it seems, maybe you would be annoyed in this situation, or you want me to be annoyed. Whatever it is, your ideas about me are wrong.
Since when are questions creating problems with people? It only makes me sharper in my thinking, and it always brings up issues that you haven't thought before, so these discussions are priceless.
About the Quran explaining its own definitions, for example the Will of Allah. Human will is decided by its needs and wants, we have a need, hunger, so our will is to go eat, when we have fulfilled this need, a new need is formed and thus a new will. God has no needs, so the definition of Will we know does not apply to Him, He must explain His Will in the Quran, what He did in all Revelations, so we as humans can comprehend His Will so we can follow it in the best way.
See my article
http//19.org/index.php?arnold
It seems you are a follower of the QXP project. Very good. I think it is a good work, though I definetely see some unnecessary embellishments in in, all the same.
I don't follow it, I'm part of it ) I run the website, forum and work on QXP3 together with Dr.Shabbir. In about a month the whole website is changed, it will contain a huge library of online books of several Muslim and non-Muslim authors, dictionaries and lectures and so on. And the new version of QXP will be released in June InshAllah. This version is very much improvement, and we have tried to seperate the Tasreef-tafseer/crossreference-explanation from the translation of the verses.
God bless
Arnold Yasin
-
Because I can answer the people's question that shows I have thought out things suddenly I'm almost unapproachable. You are a person that makes a lot of assumptions, judgements, that are really unfounded and based on emotions it seems. You predict my future behaviour and so on. No dear Anwer, I'm not annoyed by you, only you sadden me a bit with such unneccessary assumptions that are unfounded. You reflect to much on yourself it seems, maybe you would be annoyed in this situation, or you want me to be annoyed. Whatever it is, your ideas about me are wrong.
Since when are questions creating problems with people? It only makes me sharper in my thinking, and it always brings up issues that you haven't thought before, so these discussions are priceless.
There's no way you got all that from the little bit I said. I only said
You seem very convinced. Almost so much so that you seem to me somewhat unapproachable. But despite that can you explain what this means
Quote
Allah uses the Quran to explain His definitions.This doesn't seem to make sense to me. Could you explain this to me without being condescending (as I see this coming next, as I'm sure you are quite annoyed with me).
It seems you are a followr of the QXP project. Very good. I think it is a good work, though I definetely see some unnecessary embellishments in in, all the same.
Seems you might be a little biased against me. But that is okay. In the end it seems my assumption was right. Don't be picky about whether you are a follower or a part of it. Do you really have to pick an argument for such a thing. Or is it that you assume that everything I have to say is negative, or a negative criticism. Please bruh, understand that it is not like that.
I don't follow it, I'm part of it I run the website, forum and work on QXP3 together with Dr.Shabbir. In about a month the whole website is changed, it will contain a huge library of online books of several Muslim and non-Muslim authors, dictionaries and lectures and so on. And the new version of QXP will be released in June InshAllah. This version is very much improvement, and we have tried to seperate the Tasreef-tafseer/crossreference-explanation from the translation of the verses.
Congratulations. I commend you for the effort. Though let me repeat what I said in previous email. I think that QXP is bit embellished and is developed off of that fact that it is an INTERPRETATION of the Quran. Honestly, I like Quranic Teachings more. That is not a slap in the face though, please don't take it like that. I think that QXP is a needed project and should an important step for many of the world Muslims towards just following the Quran.
An important part of studying the Quran is following all of it, and that implies re-evaluations of certain passages that many have an obvious meaning by itself, but our understandings must see it through a meaning more appropriate to that other passage that complements it.
I know those passages you mentioned and I reviewed them personally. However, you have not dealt with what seems to be an obvioius contradiction (when using your understanding of those passages) with other passages.
I honestly wanted to understand how YOU process these passages together, istead of just using a quote from QXP which wasn't even really that appropriate, nor did it refer to the Arabic used to clarify your understanding. So instead of getting defensive, which it seems you are, please deal with the issue with calm. I respect your ability to think, as God gave you the mind you have but I'd really like to see your work (if you understand what I mean) especially as it concerns those verses that say that the majority of people will not believe, and will not be faithful to God. Yet you believe that they will follow the laws of the Quran. What is your logic?
Please I see you getting distracted a bit, so could we stick to the topic.
Godbless,
AnwarQuranic teachings is
http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/index.htm
-
Salaam Anwer,
There's no way you got all that from the little bit I said. I only said......Seems you might be a little biased against me. But that is okay. In the end it seems my assumption was right. Don't be picky about whether you are a follower or a part of it. Do you really have to pick an argument for such a thing. Or is it that you assume that everything I have to say is negative, or a negative criticism. Please bruh, understand that it is not like that.
hmmm, it seems you forgot that your first post on this thread was assuming I had potentials of becoming a tyrant, then I was dreaming, then I'm almost unapproachable, and then you are predicting I could be talking to you in a condencending way. These were all assumptions made up before I even posted anything really. And now you believe I'm biased against you, which you again assume you got right. I really don't know what to say Anwer, your answers are a bit weird to say the least. Whatever I say is turned around by you into another assumption.
I had already answered parts of your question throughout this thread.
"The Quran says that most will not be momin, those that are convinced. I believe that not everyone will believe the Quran is from God, but I do believe they agree with its principals. Just like in Holland we have a Christian government, most people in Holland are not Christians, but they certainly agree with the Christians ideals. The same will be with the Quranic ideals being taken over by non-Muslim countries.And one of my beliefs is also that Mankind will be one again, although this lays far in the future. First Islamic States will reform themselves, then eventually non-Muslim countries will accept them as arbiters, just like the UN-conventions is now. Hajj is indeed meant for many things. And our discussions are part of them. Hajj is for improvement of society on all levels."
I will write an article about this subject in the future, to explain my ideas better and to clear up if they contradict with the Quran.
-
Peace "progod",
You said amongst other things....it is an INTERPRETATION of the Quran. Honestly, I like Quranic Teachings more..."
JK- This statement is an obvious oxymoron. Every approach or understanding of the Quran is lastly an interpretation. You have to INTERPRET the Quran in a certain way in order to derive teachings from it. It all depends on how you uinderstand those terms which the Quran uses. Bro Arnold as far as ive analysed interprets the Quranic terms by employing the unbiased scientific method. He instead of referring to biased Mullahs who are dogmatic with their understandings, refers to classic Arabic dictionaries which state almost all the various uses of different terms as made by various Arabic communities through the generations, connects the similar topics stated in the Quran at avrious places, takes into account grammar and context, all which contributed to a rational understanding of the Quran. GOD Bless!
-
Peace,
It is not an oxymoron. It is actually a redudancy. What you said is exactly right about studying the Quran. We all must interpret it. I was just reminding our brother Arnold that when he quotes from QXP that is not the same as quoting the Quran, and that he should also refer to those other verses which seem to be contradicting his interpretation. Thank you for trying to help.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
I read the Quranic in Classical Arabic often and research the meanings of the words. When I read QXP I like it because it is a rendering that has taken other Quranic references in mind and is focused on the spiritual meaning of the Quran. However, when I read it I also find it somewhat embellished and I know that some of those connection are not in the Arabic and are somewhat forced. As benign as they may be (they are however certain more positive than the Sunni and other traditional renderings, though not fully accurate.)
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
1st of all what may seem as a forced interpretation to some may not appear so to others so its relative. The only way to solve this issue is scientific analysis. If you claim that your following the exact same proceures as bro Arnold referring to classic Arabic dictionaries, taking into account context and grammar then it would surprise me if boith of you wont come to approximately the same or very close conlusions at most in a couple of years. 2ndly by your statement above i though you meant that you dont want the interpretation of the Quran but the Quran itself(it sure looked tht way) which ofcourse makes no sense. 3rdly i dont think QXP focuses on spiritual but the scientific/rational interpretation of the Quran. GOD Bless! -
Peace,
If you claim that your following the exact same proceures as bro Arnold referring to classic Arabic dictionaries, taking into account context and grammar then it would surprise me if boith of you wont come to approximately the same or very close conlusions at most in a couple of years
You're are right. For instance Ayman and I have come to very, very close conclusions. But its sometimes those little things left that just pick at you. I also wish it didn't take years.
Now, Arnold I may disagree on your point of view of the world eventually coming to the Quran system. However, I would like some reasons for why you discount pilgrimage and if pilgrimage and debate can exist in the same context. I told you my bias was that I always saw debate as the source of jidaal. Can you explain how hajj's meaning of debate can be reconciled with jidaal. What about the hijj that we all owe to God. Is that a debate? Don't these debates go on all the time, as another brother pointed out even here on this net. What is the benefit of debate, how is it positive and how can it not be considered jidaal?
Godbless,
Anwar -
Salaam Anwer,
The difference between the debate here on the Forum and the Hajj I believe is the subjects and the scale. On this forum we discuss things on a personal scale, they affect personal lives of the members and viewers, we discuss interpretations and so on. But these discussions do not solve wars or raise fundings for hungerinfected regions. I believe the Hajj is meant for Global-scale discussions. And I believe we can avoid jidaal/quarreling by appointing arbiters, so that it remains in the positive direction and the disputes can be solved. What we owe to God is to gain peace on Earth, be one again as He had created us in the past. As for the benefits of Hajj conference, Muslims of all over the whole world come together, in like what you said, Quranic gatherings, to discuss all sorts of society issues, to solve problems and add positive actions to humanity.
-
Peace,
First, my name is Anwar not Anwer. It's okay, I just wanted to correct that mistake.
Second, I had an enlightenment just now. The Quran says there is to be no jidaal during hajj. If we are to understand hajj correctly in this context then we cannot understand it in anyway that includes jidaal. I have always translated jidaal as arguing or disputing. And some here tried to distinguish that from debate. However, if we look at 16125 (Thanks for pointing this out Damon ), We read
"?nvite to the way of your lord with wisdom and excellent/beautiful preaching/admonition. And argue with them (jaadil-hum) in ways that are best and most gracious/beautiful."
The noun of jaadala is jidaal, showing that jidaal can be done in an excellent, beautiful and most gracious way. That means that jidaal is just a dispute or the act of giving mutual statements and rebutals.
If we take that into consideration we cannot distinguish jidaal from hajj (as argument) in the context of the Quran. Literally hajj/hajjah may be more about logical debate, but jidaal is just dispute or arguing and includes logical dispute and illogical dispute. Therfore hajj falls under jidaal (as productive as logical debate may be) if we see it as debate, quranically.
Therefore in the Quranic context and through the Classical Arabic context hajj as debate falls under jidaal and this disallows our understanding hajj as debate when the Quran mentions that there is to be no jidaal during the hajj. Therefore we should only understand this word as pilgrimage, the journey to a respected/important place for a respected/important reason.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Salaam all
Muslims of all over the whole world come together, in like what you said, Quranic gatherings,
Hajj is an invitation by submitters to mankind, not just believers. Since jidaal, as appears in the quraan, is mostly on religious matters, this should be avoided.
Again, since hajj is a call to people, it cannot have a religious meaning like "pilgrimage". It is meant to discuss our worldly matters and well being of nation of all creed (2 27-2