Adultery
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Peace Samia
4 15
Pickthall As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).
Walla_ti ya'tinal fa_hisyata min nisa_'ikum fastasyhidu_'alaihinna arba'atam minkum, fa in syahidu_ fa amsiku_hunna fil buyu_ti hatta_ yatawaffa_hunnal mautu au yaj'alalla_hu lahunna sabila_(n).4 16
Pickthall And as for the two of you who are guilty thereof, punish them both. And if they repent and improve, then let them be. Lo! Allah is Relenting, Merciful.Wallaza_ni ya'tiya_niha_ minkum fa a_zu_huma_, fa in ta_ba_ wa aslaha_ fa a'ridu_ 'anhuma_, innalla_ha ka_na tawwa_bar rahima_(n).
What do you think these 2 verses are dealing with ?
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Peace Samia
12 26
Pickthall (Joseph) said She it was who asked of me an evil act. And in witness of her own folk testified If his shirt is torn from before, then she speaketh truth and he is of the liars.Qa_la hiya ra_wadatni 'an nafsi wa syahida sya_hidum min ahliha_, in ka_na qamisuha_ qudda min qubulin fa sadaqat wa huwa minal ka_zibin(a).
12 27
Pickthall And if his shirt is torn from behind, then she hath lied and he is of the truthful.
Wa in ka_na qamisuhu_ qudda min duburin fa kazabat wa huwa minas sa_diqin(a).12 28
Pickthall So when he saw his shirt torn from behind, he said Lo! this is of the guile of you women. Lo! the guile of you is very great.Falamma_ ra'a_ qamisahu_ qudda min duburin qa_la innahu_ min kaidikunn(a), inna kaidakunna 'azim(un).
According to above it is not necessary to see something to become a witness (eye witness) even circumstantial evidence can be treated as witnesses
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So "zina" means "public sex?" Then why is it translated as "adultery" is what I'm trying to ask. What does public sex has to do with adultery? Adultery can be done in private.
Yes phoenix1, it is public sex. This is not the only wrong translation of a verse or a word. It is first of all a bad understanding.
What do you think these 2 verses are dealing with ?
I am really not sure,
But by looking at the wording of both verses, and the different punishment given in each to that for public sex (zena), I would say it is about gay sex. This understanding is because verse 415 speaks about only females definitely; and 416 about males, and "zena" is about a male and a female. This is not done in public, because here they have to testify before they are punished, and also there is an alternative for punishment in both cases, two things we do not see in the verse for the punishment of zena.
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What do you think these 2 verses are dealing with ?
Exactly same word is used to what the people of Lut used to do...
Waallatee yateena alfahishata min nisaikum faistashhidoo AAalayhinna arbaAAatan minkum fain shahidoo faamsikoohunna fee albuyooti hatta yatawaffahunna almawtu aw yajAAala Allahu lahunna sabeelan
415 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.- If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
Walootan ith qala liqawmihi atatoona alfahishata ma sabaqakum biha min ahadin mina alAAalameena
780 We also (sent) Lut He said to his people "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?Walootan ith qala liqawmihi atatoona alfahishata waantum tubsiroona
2754 (We also sent) Lut (as an apostle) behold, He said to his people, "Do ye do what is shameful though ye see (its iniquity)?Walootan ith qala liqawmihi innakum latatoona alfahishata ma sabaqakum biha min ahadin mina alAAalameena
2928 And (remember) Lut behold, he said to his people "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you.Peace
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According to above it is not necessary to see something to become a witness (eye witness) even circumstantial evidence can be treated as witnesses
Yes, but not in the accusation of "zena", which is a different crime with a different punishment.
This falls within the accusation of rape which by its nature is not "zena".
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Peace Nun de Plume
12 24
Yusuf Ali And (with passion) did she desire him and he would have desired her but that he saw the evidence of his Lord thus (did We order) that We might turn away from him (all) evil and shameful deeds for he was one of Our servants sincere and purified.
Wa laqad hammat bihi wa hamma biha_, lau la_ ar ra'a_ burha_na rabbih(i), kaza_lika linasrifa 'anhus su_'a wal fahsya_'(a), innahu_ min 'iba_dinal mukhlasin(a).Even in this verse? And there are few more.
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Peace Samia
Do the verses related to zina say 4 witnesses ?
Yes, if you read the verses from 242-9 as about the same subject. Verse 24 6 mentions the four witnesses; verse 2 details the punishment and calls it "3thab torture" and verse 8 mentions "torture" in the definite form "al-3athab", which refers, therefore to the punishment previously detailed.
And verse 4 details the punishment for those who accuse "mu7sans" without presententing four witnesses. Accuse them of what? There is no crime mentioned in the previous two verses other than "zena".
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Even in this verse? And there are few more.
Peace warner,Yes; question is should all indecency be treated the same regardless of context?
http//www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=indecency&size=All
Following (11) reference(s) seem to be matching with the phonetics of your query "FAHISHA"
Al-Imran (The Family of Imran)>
An-Nisa (The Women)>
Al-A'raf (The Heights) >
Al-Isra (The Journey by Night)>
Al-Nour (The Light)>
An-Naml (The Ants)>
Al-'Ankabut (The Spider)
Al-Ahzab (The Confederates)
Waallatheena itha faAAaloo fahishatan aw thalamoo anfusahum thakaroo Allaha faistaghfaroo lithunoobihim waman yaghfiru alththunooba illa Allahu walam yusirroo AAala ma faAAaloo wahum yaAAlamoona
3135 And those who, having done something to be ashamed of, or wronged their own souls, earnestly bring Allah to mind, and ask for forgiveness for their sins,- and who can forgive sins except Allah.- and are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done.
Waallatee yateena alfahishata min nisaikum faistashhidoo AAalayhinna arbaAAatan minkum fain shahidoo faamsikoohunna fee albuyooti hatta yatawaffahunna almawtu aw yajAAala Allahu lahunna sabeelan
415 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo la yahillu lakum an tarithoo alnnisaa karhan wala taAAduloohunna litathhaboo bibaAAdi ma ataytumoohunna illa an yateena bifahishatin mubayyinatin waAAashiroohunna bialmaAAroofi fain karihtumoohunna faAAasa an takrahoo shayan wayajAAala Allahu feehi khayran katheeran
419 O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.
Wala tankihoo ma nakaha abaokum mina alnnisai illa ma qad salafa innahu kana fahishatan wamaqtan wasaa sabeelan
422 And marry not women whom your fathers married,- except what is past It was shameful and odious,- an abominable custom indeed.
Waitha faAAaloo fahishatan qaloo wajadna AAalayha abaana waAllahu amarana biha qul inna Allaha la yamuru bialfahshai ataqooloona AAala Allahi ma la taAAlamoona
728 When they do aught that is shameful, they say "We found our fathers doing so"; and "(Allah) commanded us thus" Say "Nay, Allah never commands what is shameful do ye say of Allah what ye know not?"
Walootan ith qala liqawmihi atatoona alfahishata ma sabaqakum biha min ahadin mina alAAalameena
780 We also (sent) Lut He said to his people "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?
Wala taqraboo alzzina innahu kana fahishatan wasaa sabeelan
1732 Nor come nigh to adultery for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).
Inna allatheena yuhibboona an tasheeAAa alfahishatu fee allatheena amanoo lahum AAathabun aleemun fee alddunya waalakhirati waAllahu yaAAlamu waantum la taAAlamoona
2419 Those who love (to see) scandal published broadcast among the Believers, will have a grievous Penalty in this life and in the Hereafter Allah knows, and ye know not.
Walootan ith qala liqawmihi atatoona alfahishata waantum tubsiroona
2754 (We also sent) Lut (as an apostle) behold, He said to his people, "Do ye do what is shameful though ye see (its iniquity)?
Walootan ith qala liqawmihi innakum latatoona alfahishata ma sabaqakum biha min ahadin mina alAAalameena
2928 And (remember) Lut behold, he said to his people "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you.
Ya nisaa alnnabiyyi man yati minkunna bifahishatin mubayyinatin yudaAAaf laha alAAathabu diAAfayni wakana thalika AAala Allahi yaseeran
3330 O Consorts of the Prophet! If any of you were guilty of evident unseemly conduct, the Punishment would be doubled to her, and that is easy for Allah.
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Salamun alaykum
The Standard of Proof for Adultery is clearly that of Four Witnesses as stated by Sister Samia citing Quran 242-9 and other Related verses supporting It . However , what is wrong with using DNA Test for the Suspected Adulterors to Prove their Innocence or Guilt ? Surely it is in the Interest of the 'accused' to Clear their names ? Of course we could not compel the accused/suspected adulterors to submit samples for DNA Test . I am suggesting that "The Accused" have the chance to clear their Names , and the Community will have their assurance from their government that such acts had or hadn't indeed occurred .
If DNA Tests were good enough to Prove Murders and Rapes , why should not we use it to prove accusations of Adultery ? You can't say the use of this Test as Un-Islamic or Un-Quranic can you ?
Peace
almarh0m -
Salaam almarh0m
The use of any evidence to prove innocence is , of course, islamic as you state. I do not think it is islamic to use it as proof of guilt in this context, except in the case of rape. My understanding of zena is that it is punishable because it is public. What's the point in using other kind of evidence to prove it? For whose interest?
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Peace Samia
If 415 and 16 is about gay sex (according to you) and the requirement of 4 witnesses is necessary why arent you considering those 2 verses as PUBLIC gay sex.
This is not done in public, because here they have to testify before they are punished,
I mean, the four winesses are not decisive.
It could also mean that, within the family, as people live together and there is more chance to know, you still need four witnesses before you accuse them, or even before bringing up the matter for discussion.
So, this, I think, is about illegal sex within the family. No public punishment is required. Everything is kept within the household.
That's what I think. I might be wrong
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Salaam warner
Isnt the verse saying the witnesses have to testify ?
Yes, you're right. My mistake.
The Quraan does not say circumstantial evidence is only for rape.
I did not say the quraan said that. I do not even know if the quraan spoke of cirumstamtial evidence. But I understand that if the quraan specifies an evidence, then it is only that evidence. For other punisable crimes such as stealing, murder, manslaughter, it did not mention any kind of evidence, not even witnesses, then we can talk of circumstantial or any vidence.