Adultery
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So "zina" means "public sex?" Then why is it translated as "adultery" is what I'm trying to ask. What does public sex has to do with adultery? Adultery can be done in private.
Yes phoenix1, it is public sex. This is not the only wrong translation of a verse or a word. It is first of all a bad understanding.
What do you think these 2 verses are dealing with ?
I am really not sure,
But by looking at the wording of both verses, and the different punishment given in each to that for public sex (zena), I would say it is about gay sex. This understanding is because verse 415 speaks about only females definitely; and 416 about males, and "zena" is about a male and a female. This is not done in public, because here they have to testify before they are punished, and also there is an alternative for punishment in both cases, two things we do not see in the verse for the punishment of zena.
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What do you think these 2 verses are dealing with ?
Exactly same word is used to what the people of Lut used to do...
Waallatee yateena alfahishata min nisaikum faistashhidoo AAalayhinna arbaAAatan minkum fain shahidoo faamsikoohunna fee albuyooti hatta yatawaffahunna almawtu aw yajAAala Allahu lahunna sabeelan
415 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.- If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
Walootan ith qala liqawmihi atatoona alfahishata ma sabaqakum biha min ahadin mina alAAalameena
780 We also (sent) Lut He said to his people "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?Walootan ith qala liqawmihi atatoona alfahishata waantum tubsiroona
2754 (We also sent) Lut (as an apostle) behold, He said to his people, "Do ye do what is shameful though ye see (its iniquity)?Walootan ith qala liqawmihi innakum latatoona alfahishata ma sabaqakum biha min ahadin mina alAAalameena
2928 And (remember) Lut behold, he said to his people "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you.Peace
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According to above it is not necessary to see something to become a witness (eye witness) even circumstantial evidence can be treated as witnesses
Yes, but not in the accusation of "zena", which is a different crime with a different punishment.
This falls within the accusation of rape which by its nature is not "zena".
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Peace Nun de Plume
12 24
Yusuf Ali And (with passion) did she desire him and he would have desired her but that he saw the evidence of his Lord thus (did We order) that We might turn away from him (all) evil and shameful deeds for he was one of Our servants sincere and purified.
Wa laqad hammat bihi wa hamma biha_, lau la_ ar ra'a_ burha_na rabbih(i), kaza_lika linasrifa 'anhus su_'a wal fahsya_'(a), innahu_ min 'iba_dinal mukhlasin(a).Even in this verse? And there are few more.
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Peace Samia
Do the verses related to zina say 4 witnesses ?
Yes, if you read the verses from 242-9 as about the same subject. Verse 24 6 mentions the four witnesses; verse 2 details the punishment and calls it "3thab torture" and verse 8 mentions "torture" in the definite form "al-3athab", which refers, therefore to the punishment previously detailed.
And verse 4 details the punishment for those who accuse "mu7sans" without presententing four witnesses. Accuse them of what? There is no crime mentioned in the previous two verses other than "zena".
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Even in this verse? And there are few more.
Peace warner,Yes; question is should all indecency be treated the same regardless of context?
http//www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=indecency&size=All
Following (11) reference(s) seem to be matching with the phonetics of your query "FAHISHA"
Al-Imran (The Family of Imran)>
An-Nisa (The Women)>
Al-A'raf (The Heights) >
Al-Isra (The Journey by Night)>
Al-Nour (The Light)>
An-Naml (The Ants)>
Al-'Ankabut (The Spider)
Al-Ahzab (The Confederates)
Waallatheena itha faAAaloo fahishatan aw thalamoo anfusahum thakaroo Allaha faistaghfaroo lithunoobihim waman yaghfiru alththunooba illa Allahu walam yusirroo AAala ma faAAaloo wahum yaAAlamoona
3135 And those who, having done something to be ashamed of, or wronged their own souls, earnestly bring Allah to mind, and ask for forgiveness for their sins,- and who can forgive sins except Allah.- and are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done.
Waallatee yateena alfahishata min nisaikum faistashhidoo AAalayhinna arbaAAatan minkum fain shahidoo faamsikoohunna fee albuyooti hatta yatawaffahunna almawtu aw yajAAala Allahu lahunna sabeelan
415 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo la yahillu lakum an tarithoo alnnisaa karhan wala taAAduloohunna litathhaboo bibaAAdi ma ataytumoohunna illa an yateena bifahishatin mubayyinatin waAAashiroohunna bialmaAAroofi fain karihtumoohunna faAAasa an takrahoo shayan wayajAAala Allahu feehi khayran katheeran
419 O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.
Wala tankihoo ma nakaha abaokum mina alnnisai illa ma qad salafa innahu kana fahishatan wamaqtan wasaa sabeelan
422 And marry not women whom your fathers married,- except what is past It was shameful and odious,- an abominable custom indeed.
Waitha faAAaloo fahishatan qaloo wajadna AAalayha abaana waAllahu amarana biha qul inna Allaha la yamuru bialfahshai ataqooloona AAala Allahi ma la taAAlamoona
728 When they do aught that is shameful, they say "We found our fathers doing so"; and "(Allah) commanded us thus" Say "Nay, Allah never commands what is shameful do ye say of Allah what ye know not?"
Walootan ith qala liqawmihi atatoona alfahishata ma sabaqakum biha min ahadin mina alAAalameena
780 We also (sent) Lut He said to his people "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?
Wala taqraboo alzzina innahu kana fahishatan wasaa sabeelan
1732 Nor come nigh to adultery for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).
Inna allatheena yuhibboona an tasheeAAa alfahishatu fee allatheena amanoo lahum AAathabun aleemun fee alddunya waalakhirati waAllahu yaAAlamu waantum la taAAlamoona
2419 Those who love (to see) scandal published broadcast among the Believers, will have a grievous Penalty in this life and in the Hereafter Allah knows, and ye know not.
Walootan ith qala liqawmihi atatoona alfahishata waantum tubsiroona
2754 (We also sent) Lut (as an apostle) behold, He said to his people, "Do ye do what is shameful though ye see (its iniquity)?
Walootan ith qala liqawmihi innakum latatoona alfahishata ma sabaqakum biha min ahadin mina alAAalameena
2928 And (remember) Lut behold, he said to his people "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you.
Ya nisaa alnnabiyyi man yati minkunna bifahishatin mubayyinatin yudaAAaf laha alAAathabu diAAfayni wakana thalika AAala Allahi yaseeran
3330 O Consorts of the Prophet! If any of you were guilty of evident unseemly conduct, the Punishment would be doubled to her, and that is easy for Allah.
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Salamun alaykum
The Standard of Proof for Adultery is clearly that of Four Witnesses as stated by Sister Samia citing Quran 242-9 and other Related verses supporting It . However , what is wrong with using DNA Test for the Suspected Adulterors to Prove their Innocence or Guilt ? Surely it is in the Interest of the 'accused' to Clear their names ? Of course we could not compel the accused/suspected adulterors to submit samples for DNA Test . I am suggesting that "The Accused" have the chance to clear their Names , and the Community will have their assurance from their government that such acts had or hadn't indeed occurred .
If DNA Tests were good enough to Prove Murders and Rapes , why should not we use it to prove accusations of Adultery ? You can't say the use of this Test as Un-Islamic or Un-Quranic can you ?
Peace
almarh0m -
Salaam almarh0m
The use of any evidence to prove innocence is , of course, islamic as you state. I do not think it is islamic to use it as proof of guilt in this context, except in the case of rape. My understanding of zena is that it is punishable because it is public. What's the point in using other kind of evidence to prove it? For whose interest?
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Peace Samia
If 415 and 16 is about gay sex (according to you) and the requirement of 4 witnesses is necessary why arent you considering those 2 verses as PUBLIC gay sex.
This is not done in public, because here they have to testify before they are punished,
I mean, the four winesses are not decisive.
It could also mean that, within the family, as people live together and there is more chance to know, you still need four witnesses before you accuse them, or even before bringing up the matter for discussion.
So, this, I think, is about illegal sex within the family. No public punishment is required. Everything is kept within the household.
That's what I think. I might be wrong
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Salaam warner
Isnt the verse saying the witnesses have to testify ?
Yes, you're right. My mistake.
The Quraan does not say circumstantial evidence is only for rape.
I did not say the quraan said that. I do not even know if the quraan spoke of cirumstamtial evidence. But I understand that if the quraan specifies an evidence, then it is only that evidence. For other punisable crimes such as stealing, murder, manslaughter, it did not mention any kind of evidence, not even witnesses, then we can talk of circumstantial or any vidence.
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I was referring to 1226 where circumstantial evidence was used against the Wife of Azziz and in support of Joseph
I take this as accusation of "attempted rape".
Does this charge/accusation should be on public sex, gay sex or sex within closed circle?
Why would one accuse someone on having public sex, unless he/she considers himself "the public"?
If the accusation is from someone within the same household (mainly espouses), whether be it gay or straight sex, four witnesses are required, just like public sex. The difference is that for public sex (gay or straight), punishment is required to be public too. No corporal punishment for gay sex within the household. For straight sex within the household, divorce is the decision.
So, the accusation will be of any illegal sex, even within closed circles, and I would say, especially within closed circles, because this is the most done accusation. If the accuser is able to bring four witnesses, then it was not a closed -circle sex.
Maybe that's why closed-circle sex does not have a punishment, because there is no evidence for it, and circumstantial evidence is not accepted. -
Peace
The circumstantial evidence in the case of Josephs? brother stealing the cup i.e. the cup was found in his bag although there were no eye witnesses. But actually the evidence in this case was planted to look like he stole. Possibly here the Quraan is teaching us to be cautious of accepting evidence blindly.
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Peace,
Good questions Angel,
First I like to ask, what are really an adulterer? sex outside marriage, but does it differ if you are already married to someone or single when you commit this act?
I guess many have done this if it's includes single persons!!!
Where is the whip?
Maria
Maria
A very relevent question. bravowhen i found such a contradiction in verses 4-24 and 4-25, i knew something was a miss, when i dug up , i was horrified to find every translator( i mean every translator) had mistranslated/misunderstood this word ,Mohsinnat"
It took me/us some time to reach the correct understanding for this word, if you are interested, you may go through the thread, "Mohsinnat , a new understanding(very imp)" in the same section.
In short , Mohsinnat are Not married women, she is, any eligible righteous ,chaste women, and can be a believer , or a non believer.peace
siki