Adultery
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Salamun alaykum
The Standard of Proof for Adultery is clearly that of Four Witnesses as stated by Sister Samia citing Quran 242-9 and other Related verses supporting It . However , what is wrong with using DNA Test for the Suspected Adulterors to Prove their Innocence or Guilt ? Surely it is in the Interest of the 'accused' to Clear their names ? Of course we could not compel the accused/suspected adulterors to submit samples for DNA Test . I am suggesting that "The Accused" have the chance to clear their Names , and the Community will have their assurance from their government that such acts had or hadn't indeed occurred .
If DNA Tests were good enough to Prove Murders and Rapes , why should not we use it to prove accusations of Adultery ? You can't say the use of this Test as Un-Islamic or Un-Quranic can you ?
Peace
almarh0m -
Salaam almarh0m
The use of any evidence to prove innocence is , of course, islamic as you state. I do not think it is islamic to use it as proof of guilt in this context, except in the case of rape. My understanding of zena is that it is punishable because it is public. What's the point in using other kind of evidence to prove it? For whose interest?
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Peace Samia
If 415 and 16 is about gay sex (according to you) and the requirement of 4 witnesses is necessary why arent you considering those 2 verses as PUBLIC gay sex.
This is not done in public, because here they have to testify before they are punished,
I mean, the four winesses are not decisive.
It could also mean that, within the family, as people live together and there is more chance to know, you still need four witnesses before you accuse them, or even before bringing up the matter for discussion.
So, this, I think, is about illegal sex within the family. No public punishment is required. Everything is kept within the household.
That's what I think. I might be wrong
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Salaam warner
Isnt the verse saying the witnesses have to testify ?
Yes, you're right. My mistake.
The Quraan does not say circumstantial evidence is only for rape.
I did not say the quraan said that. I do not even know if the quraan spoke of cirumstamtial evidence. But I understand that if the quraan specifies an evidence, then it is only that evidence. For other punisable crimes such as stealing, murder, manslaughter, it did not mention any kind of evidence, not even witnesses, then we can talk of circumstantial or any vidence.
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I was referring to 1226 where circumstantial evidence was used against the Wife of Azziz and in support of Joseph
I take this as accusation of "attempted rape".
Does this charge/accusation should be on public sex, gay sex or sex within closed circle?
Why would one accuse someone on having public sex, unless he/she considers himself "the public"?
If the accusation is from someone within the same household (mainly espouses), whether be it gay or straight sex, four witnesses are required, just like public sex. The difference is that for public sex (gay or straight), punishment is required to be public too. No corporal punishment for gay sex within the household. For straight sex within the household, divorce is the decision.
So, the accusation will be of any illegal sex, even within closed circles, and I would say, especially within closed circles, because this is the most done accusation. If the accuser is able to bring four witnesses, then it was not a closed -circle sex.
Maybe that's why closed-circle sex does not have a punishment, because there is no evidence for it, and circumstantial evidence is not accepted. -
Peace
The circumstantial evidence in the case of Josephs? brother stealing the cup i.e. the cup was found in his bag although there were no eye witnesses. But actually the evidence in this case was planted to look like he stole. Possibly here the Quraan is teaching us to be cautious of accepting evidence blindly.
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Peace,
Good questions Angel,
First I like to ask, what are really an adulterer? sex outside marriage, but does it differ if you are already married to someone or single when you commit this act?
I guess many have done this if it's includes single persons!!!
Where is the whip?
Maria
Maria
A very relevent question. bravowhen i found such a contradiction in verses 4-24 and 4-25, i knew something was a miss, when i dug up , i was horrified to find every translator( i mean every translator) had mistranslated/misunderstood this word ,Mohsinnat"
It took me/us some time to reach the correct understanding for this word, if you are interested, you may go through the thread, "Mohsinnat , a new understanding(very imp)" in the same section.
In short , Mohsinnat are Not married women, she is, any eligible righteous ,chaste women, and can be a believer , or a non believer.peace
siki -
Here is my understanding!
Zina most probably, is public sex , meaning that if such an act was performed so carelessly, that 4 people ended up witnessing it , then they deserve 100 lashes.
4-15-- is a different issue. Here it is women, who are committing "Fahisha"(unapproved sexual practices). If people come to know of such activities, and they are sure, that the lady is up to something wrong . And 4 different people/on different occasions can produce circumstantial evidence to affirm wrong activities of a woman, then God is commanding, "Family/guardians must restrict/lock these women up at home until and unless they repent and correct themselves". Because 'A loose character woman on "the loose", is dangerous for the society.
About 4-16, i am still not sure , some translators have translated it as two of them , and some have translated it as two men , i do not know which is correct, Samia should be able to throw some light on the correct meanings.
peace
siki -
Peace Warner
DNA can be Circumstantial evidence. The Quraan does not say circumstantial evidence is only for rape.
Why are you referring to DNA Evidence as a Circumstantial Evidence ? DNA Evidence to Prove or Disprove whether a Sexual Intercourse took place between People is a Material Evidence ( Direct Evidence ) . And so are the testimony of Sworn Witnesses .
Peace
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Peace Samia
I do not agree with your view on this.
On what, and why hmm
Peace Samia
Also I couldn?t figure out how you got public sex, close circle sex and sex within household. I guess it will be difficult to define and set limitations for the latter 2.
*Close circle sex is your terminology for sex performed between two adults privately;
*Public sex is my understanding of "zena", and
*Sex within household is my understanding of sex which is neither of the above two. It is "closed -circle sex" where one at least is married and suspected by the spouse. -
Salaam almahr0m
Peace Warner
DNA can be Circumstantial evidence. The Quraan does not say circumstantial evidence is only for rape.
Why are you referring to DNA Evidence as a Circumstantial Evidence ? DNA Evidence to Prove or Disprove whether a Sexual Intercourse took place between People is a Material Evidence ( Direct Evidence ) . And so are the testimony of Sworn Witnesses .
Peace
What if the accused was a "chimera" (a person with two different sets of DNA)? It could even be quite difficult to rule out that someone is not a chimera, so the probability stays hanging. DNA is no more a fault-proof evidence.
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Peace Almarhom
I used circumstantial evidence in contrast to eye witness evidence. DNA can be material evidence but is DNA sufficient as the only evidence? Surrogate mothers are one exception to the rule. Do you think DNA evidence could have produced against Mary in case of her child Jesus?
You must elaborate on sworn testimonies.
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Salaamun alaykum
Peace Almarhom
I used circumstantial evidence in contrast to eye witness evidence. DNA can be material evidence but is DNA sufficient as the only evidence? Surrogate mothers are one exception to the rule. Do you think DNA evidence could have produced against Mary in case of her child Jesus?
You must elaborate on sworn testimonies.
We are discussing Adultery and Fornication here in an Islamic context and I assume in an Islamic Setting right ? Now, how can Evidence from DNA Testing of the accused Adulterors be Circumstantial ? If the Male's DNA ( traces of his semen is found in the female accused's fallopian tube or in her genitalia ) is present in the co-accused vagina , would you think that they got there by Sitting on a Public rest Room in a Shopping Center ? If I were accused of committing adultery with someone, I would be offering sample of my DNA to the authority ASAP . In cases of Adultery/Fornication , DNA Test is Conclusive as it is Direct evidence .
As for the 'Sworn Witnesses Testimony' from all the verses Cited thus far , it constitutes Direct Evidence . The Four Witnesses Stipulated in the cited verse , all would have taken an Oath in the name of God to tell the Truth , therefore the likelihood of their Perjuring themselves is Minimal . Of course their Testimony will have to corroborate each other or else the Testimony will be Rejected and The case of Adultery thrown out for lack of Evidence . By the way , my understading of Adultery or Fornication is an illicit sexual intercourse by married man/woman with another Married/ or unmarried man/woman , what is yours ?
Peace
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Salaam warner
So what is illegal sex within the family?
My words are not terminology, and are not to be taken in this respect. They just serve in helping me explain what I understand. It is what I later explained as
"closed -circle sex" where one at least is married and suspected by the spouse.
.You may take either "terminologies" or come up with your own in your own words, if I were successful in making you understand what I mean..