Adultery
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I was referring to 1226 where circumstantial evidence was used against the Wife of Azziz and in support of Joseph
I take this as accusation of "attempted rape".
Does this charge/accusation should be on public sex, gay sex or sex within closed circle?
Why would one accuse someone on having public sex, unless he/she considers himself "the public"?
If the accusation is from someone within the same household (mainly espouses), whether be it gay or straight sex, four witnesses are required, just like public sex. The difference is that for public sex (gay or straight), punishment is required to be public too. No corporal punishment for gay sex within the household. For straight sex within the household, divorce is the decision.
So, the accusation will be of any illegal sex, even within closed circles, and I would say, especially within closed circles, because this is the most done accusation. If the accuser is able to bring four witnesses, then it was not a closed -circle sex.
Maybe that's why closed-circle sex does not have a punishment, because there is no evidence for it, and circumstantial evidence is not accepted. -
Peace
The circumstantial evidence in the case of Josephs? brother stealing the cup i.e. the cup was found in his bag although there were no eye witnesses. But actually the evidence in this case was planted to look like he stole. Possibly here the Quraan is teaching us to be cautious of accepting evidence blindly.
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Peace,
Good questions Angel,
First I like to ask, what are really an adulterer? sex outside marriage, but does it differ if you are already married to someone or single when you commit this act?
I guess many have done this if it's includes single persons!!!
Where is the whip?
Maria
Maria
A very relevent question. bravowhen i found such a contradiction in verses 4-24 and 4-25, i knew something was a miss, when i dug up , i was horrified to find every translator( i mean every translator) had mistranslated/misunderstood this word ,Mohsinnat"
It took me/us some time to reach the correct understanding for this word, if you are interested, you may go through the thread, "Mohsinnat , a new understanding(very imp)" in the same section.
In short , Mohsinnat are Not married women, she is, any eligible righteous ,chaste women, and can be a believer , or a non believer.peace
siki -
Here is my understanding!
Zina most probably, is public sex , meaning that if such an act was performed so carelessly, that 4 people ended up witnessing it , then they deserve 100 lashes.
4-15-- is a different issue. Here it is women, who are committing "Fahisha"(unapproved sexual practices). If people come to know of such activities, and they are sure, that the lady is up to something wrong . And 4 different people/on different occasions can produce circumstantial evidence to affirm wrong activities of a woman, then God is commanding, "Family/guardians must restrict/lock these women up at home until and unless they repent and correct themselves". Because 'A loose character woman on "the loose", is dangerous for the society.
About 4-16, i am still not sure , some translators have translated it as two of them , and some have translated it as two men , i do not know which is correct, Samia should be able to throw some light on the correct meanings.
peace
siki -
Peace Warner
DNA can be Circumstantial evidence. The Quraan does not say circumstantial evidence is only for rape.
Why are you referring to DNA Evidence as a Circumstantial Evidence ? DNA Evidence to Prove or Disprove whether a Sexual Intercourse took place between People is a Material Evidence ( Direct Evidence ) . And so are the testimony of Sworn Witnesses .
Peace
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Peace Samia
I do not agree with your view on this.
On what, and why hmm
Peace Samia
Also I couldn?t figure out how you got public sex, close circle sex and sex within household. I guess it will be difficult to define and set limitations for the latter 2.
*Close circle sex is your terminology for sex performed between two adults privately;
*Public sex is my understanding of "zena", and
*Sex within household is my understanding of sex which is neither of the above two. It is "closed -circle sex" where one at least is married and suspected by the spouse. -
Salaam almahr0m
Peace Warner
DNA can be Circumstantial evidence. The Quraan does not say circumstantial evidence is only for rape.
Why are you referring to DNA Evidence as a Circumstantial Evidence ? DNA Evidence to Prove or Disprove whether a Sexual Intercourse took place between People is a Material Evidence ( Direct Evidence ) . And so are the testimony of Sworn Witnesses .
Peace
What if the accused was a "chimera" (a person with two different sets of DNA)? It could even be quite difficult to rule out that someone is not a chimera, so the probability stays hanging. DNA is no more a fault-proof evidence.
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Peace Almarhom
I used circumstantial evidence in contrast to eye witness evidence. DNA can be material evidence but is DNA sufficient as the only evidence? Surrogate mothers are one exception to the rule. Do you think DNA evidence could have produced against Mary in case of her child Jesus?
You must elaborate on sworn testimonies.
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Salaamun alaykum
Peace Almarhom
I used circumstantial evidence in contrast to eye witness evidence. DNA can be material evidence but is DNA sufficient as the only evidence? Surrogate mothers are one exception to the rule. Do you think DNA evidence could have produced against Mary in case of her child Jesus?
You must elaborate on sworn testimonies.
We are discussing Adultery and Fornication here in an Islamic context and I assume in an Islamic Setting right ? Now, how can Evidence from DNA Testing of the accused Adulterors be Circumstantial ? If the Male's DNA ( traces of his semen is found in the female accused's fallopian tube or in her genitalia ) is present in the co-accused vagina , would you think that they got there by Sitting on a Public rest Room in a Shopping Center ? If I were accused of committing adultery with someone, I would be offering sample of my DNA to the authority ASAP . In cases of Adultery/Fornication , DNA Test is Conclusive as it is Direct evidence .
As for the 'Sworn Witnesses Testimony' from all the verses Cited thus far , it constitutes Direct Evidence . The Four Witnesses Stipulated in the cited verse , all would have taken an Oath in the name of God to tell the Truth , therefore the likelihood of their Perjuring themselves is Minimal . Of course their Testimony will have to corroborate each other or else the Testimony will be Rejected and The case of Adultery thrown out for lack of Evidence . By the way , my understading of Adultery or Fornication is an illicit sexual intercourse by married man/woman with another Married/ or unmarried man/woman , what is yours ?
Peace
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Salaam warner
So what is illegal sex within the family?
My words are not terminology, and are not to be taken in this respect. They just serve in helping me explain what I understand. It is what I later explained as
"closed -circle sex" where one at least is married and suspected by the spouse.
.You may take either "terminologies" or come up with your own in your own words, if I were successful in making you understand what I mean..
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Peace Samia
It is my mistake; instead of your words I introduced the catchy ?closed circle? and later I could not explain my own term. It is a similar situation as the White House when it introduced Operation of Iraq Liberation and the acronym was OIL, which was not very nice for them so they changed it later.
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Peace Samia
It is my mistake; instead of your words I introduced the catchy closed circle and later I could not explain my own term. It is a similar situation as the White House when it introduced Operation of Iraq Liberation and the acronym was OIL, which was not very nice for them so they changed it later.
rotfl
So, did you understand my "OIL"?
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Salaam warner
Zanah is to commit adultery (usually of the female and less often of simple fornication)
The quraan explicitly says 242 "The male and the female doers of "zena"....
Maybe because God knows that the jews accused women only of adultery, and so they changed the language to reflect this meaning (just as Arabic is sometimes being twisted to reflect misunderstandings).
And maybe the meaning in Hebrew could not be refleted in English other than by the word "adultery", just like the Arabic word.
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Peace Samia
242 describes the punishment for zina and calls it as Athaab/torture and 248 should refer to the same athaab. By these 2 verses it is clear a married man or woman committing illegal sex should be punished by 100 lashes.
Your stand is even for married people it has to be public sex for it to qualify as illegal sex and for sex within the family if it qualifies by 4 witnesses it will no longer be called sex within family but should be categorized as public sex.
Imagine a situation in which a wife commits sex outside marriage where the husband is the only witness and he brings the charge against her and he bears witness 4 times by Allah and a fifth, invoking the curse of Allah on him if he is lying. In this situation if the wife does not go through the process explained in 248 and 9 to avert the punishment/athaab she will qualify as a zani and get the 100 lashes.
Will this not prove that zina does not have to be public sex?
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peace
What I really don't get is why the Quran mentions public sex at all, let alone public gay sex.
I have never ever seen that happen. Never. It is such an uncommon practice. At least in today's world (who knows what those arabs used to do in the good ol' days). And having sex in public is something most people would intuitively avoid.
Is it sex as in sexual intercourse? or just lewd or immodest behavior? -
Dear warner
we have to keep the following points in mind ;
If you go through all the relevent verses, you will find , that Zina or Zani qualifies with the word 4 witnesses only, and when somebody has been established as a Zani , he/she should be whipped publically and only be married to a similar category, or with a non believer.
In rest of the verses , the word accusation is used ,and this accusation could be any thing short of 4 witnesses for any kind of illegal sex , Quran does not use the word accusation for Zina, because any such act would qualify to be "Zina", only when there are 4 witnesses and then it would be no more an accusation.
Even in the verses of spouse, "accusation" is used , not Zina, and God does not say that "if they cant bring four witnesses" but says 'without any witness except their own', and when the truth is established after sworn testimonies, the accused is not labeled as Zani , and no where it is commanded that she/he should be whipped 100 lashes, or be given punishment for Zina. It is been probably left to court /husband/family to take any appropriate actionNote in 24-4 the women is still a "Mohsinnat" till she is proved as a Zani by 4 witnesses.
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peace
siki