Adultery
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Peace bro "phoenix",
Sex in front of 4 or more people IS public sex. How is it any different?
JK- 1) the Quran doesnt say that there have to be four simultaneous eye witnesses. One could be having sexual relations and witnessed firt by one, then a second, third and then fourth witness separetly and later they may all testify. So its not necessarily public. 2) four witnesses does NOT necessary mean direct eye witnesses of the event but could also be applied to indepenedent witnesses of DNA tests and/or other facts which solidly indicate that the event took place. GOD Bless!
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Peace
Why does Allah want 4 witnesses?
Otherwise they are liers in the eyes of God .
What if there are 3 witnesses who are telling the truth and they can?t find a fourth witness? 244 expects us to whip them 80 times??
It is a serious charge, so serious that God's curse is on the lier even if the guilty party does get off .
Are the lashes suppose to be severe or symbolic?
I'm not sure. I think they are to be held literally at first until further evidence clearly suggests otherwise. In any case God suggests you not let pity keep you fro your duty in the matter .
P.S. I also believe if you read further on in the following verses that you will see that the mumin are in a position where they are not adulters or adulteresses and thus do not have sexual relations in such ways and given the benefit of a doubt by their family, that is the community of believers . Other conditions are spoken of in these passages such as people seeking to incite such evil charges.
Joe
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Cheers Joe.
24/13 Only if they produced four witnesses (you may believe them). If they fail to produce the witnesses, then they are, according to GOD, liars. - Khalifa translation
I can?t believe how absurd this is, if me X and Y saw Z committing adultery ~ and we grassed Z ~ but we can?t find a fourth witness ~ and Z?s spouse refused to believe us, then me X and Y get 80 lashes (!!) and Z is let off scott free?? I can?t even begin to think how irrational/unjust this is.
Adultery is a private matter, exposing the problem only gives people something to gossip about; and those nasty people that take pleasure from other people?s pain would just love something like that.
And exactly which puppet is gonna whip me, X and Y for telling the truth &?
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Considering the wisdom of the Quran I find the above out of touch hypno, and certainly not something an all wise creator would command ???.
Would it be better to take the above metaphorically and not a literal commandment? tempt A metaphor reflecting the utter seriousness of the sin? tempt Or is that interpretation way too heretical or silly for some of you? >D
peace
peace -
Peace Be Upon You All
This is a very thought provoking thread, thank you sis Angel
I wonder if any of you have questioned why we hit each other violently in such an inhumane manner as getting whipped because someone disrupted the moral fabric of society.
I believe in keeping chaste because it is better for our souls and prevents any additional impure programs entering into our minds. It is what is prescribed for us and there is alot of wisdom in leading a chaste life.
My problem is similar to sis Angel in that it is seemingly barbaric to be wipping people for a sin committed. I would think entering into some therapuetic coaching to re-program the person back to a healthy state, perhaps some type of confinement, or obligation to do community work for a set period of time would serve the guilty couple better ...
People seem to be really hung up on the beauty of 4 witnesses to ensure that innocent people don't get wipped and I didn't see any discussion on why we're wipping people to begin with ...
As questioned by sis Angel in another thread, and I think very cleverly, how many of you would be able to actually carry this law out? How many of you would really be capable of wipping someone regardless of your stance on the crime was. To me adultery is a very grave wrong but I have a problem with the desensitization that occurs when we physically whip someone and justifying it as OK to physically harm another.
I know alot of egyptians and i know that the overwhelming majority of them would say that this is a very uncivilized and barbaric rule that should be substituted for something similar in severity but dissimilar in that nobody gets physically assaulted by another. In egypt the laws for adultery is jail time; although the laws are flawed in other ways. But the point is that perhaps we need to revisit the point of the commandment in a broader sense.
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Peace sis "angel",
- The verse if for the protection of chaste women and that one dare not blame them without solid evidene. 2) "shuhadaa" does not necessarily mean four EYE witnesses but can refer to four independent lines of inquiry all suggesting/giving evidence tht the accused is guilty and in that sense each proof acts as a witness itself. GOD Bless!
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Peace Boost, Angel, all,
Sometimes I get frustrated that people are not careful with The God's words and assume something on their own and then write entire posts based on that assumption whereas it is nowhere to be found in The God's words.
Where does it mention about severity of lashes ? brickwall
If the severity is not mentioned, would that not be indicative of the public shaming aspect of the punishment ? !
This has already been discussed here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13165.0
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Cheers Joe.
Adultery is a private matter, exposing the problem only gives people something to gossip about; and those nasty people that take pleasure from other peoples pain would just love something like that.
Peace Angel
No, adultery is not a private matter. It can destroy families, lead to children outside of wedlock, single parent families. All sorts of bad things can result from sex outside of marriage. The family is the building block of society and without it you have a disjointed society with people functioning as individuals. There are so many reasons why it is crucial to deter people from adultery/fornication.
Roshan
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Peace Be Upon You bro Tanveer
Is there mention in the verse of the punishment having to be in public?
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Peace be with you
242 ?????..let not compassion move you in their case in a matter prescribed by Allah if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
The part of the verse quoted above says the punishment should not be mild.
You can notice the word used in Arabic to describe the punishment is Azaab/torture.
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Peace be with you,
Peace Angel
The verses 2411 to 20 are dealing with the same issue of slandering someone on the basis of committing illegal sexual relations. We do not know for sure who brought the slander against whom but it seem like this is pointing to an incident which happened while the Quraan is being revealed. Verses 2411 and 12 both says this is not a true fact (ifaka). Also the verses do not mention of a charge being brought up. It is only slander and the reaction of others (believers) towards it which is clearly wrong. The verse 2413 is related mainly to this particular slandering and not about bringing a charge.
The important lesson we have to learn from these verses is not to slander and not to bring false charges against a person.
If a spouse accusing the other and wanting to bring charges let him/her have 4 witnesses. If no witnesses he has the option referred to in 246.
Anyone accusing another of zina they should bring 4 solid witnesses because if their witnesses fail they will be striped. This is basically telling people to mind their own business. Only a spouse can accuse the other and get away without producing the 4 witnesses. Another clue to tell others to mind thier own business. But if someone informing a spouse of the other can not be termed as slander or a charge.I guess this is a moral duty if the spouse is known. If someone gets charged with 4 solid witnesses for zina by other than the spouse , that shows how loose, careless and stupid she or he been.
Angel, X and Y God did not call you liars since you did not slander the woman and also you did not make an accusation; you just informed the husband. Because of these reasons you and X and Y do not get striped.
If we really analyze, the Quraan has given us a beautiful set of laws within Chapter 24 which will reduce or eradicate zina and also slandering and leave the husband, wife and the family to deal with the sensitive issue of infidelity if one partner cheats.
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Peace Angel,
24/13 Only if they produced four witnesses (you may believe them). If they fail to produce the witnesses, then they are, according to GOD, liars. - Khalifa translation
I can?t believe how absurd this is, if me X and Y saw Z committing adultery ~ and we grassed Z ~ but we can?t find a fourth witness ~ and Z?s spouse refused to believe us, then me X and Y get 80 lashes (!!) and Z is let off scott free?? I can?t even begin to think how irrational/unjust this is.Adultery is not even mentioned in the great reading. The word "zina" doesn't mean adultery.
The word "zina" means two things
- Pornography (this is why the four eye witnesses is built into the definition).
- Adultery where the only eye witness is the husband and the spouse willingly admits to the accusation of her husband.
This was previously discussed many times on the forum. For example, here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11629.msg80746#msg80746
Adultery is a private matter, exposing the problem only gives people something to gossip about; and those nasty people that take pleasure from other people?s pain would just love something like that.
Yes, adultery is a private matter for which there is no legal punishment in this world (like other even graver sins such as setting up partners of the god)
And exactly which puppet is gonna whip me, X and Y for telling the truth &?
But you didn't say the truth. They didn't commit pornography. So yes, you would be a false witness.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaamun alaiki sis Boost,
Is there mention in the verse of the punishment having to be in public?
Yes
242 The zaania and the zaani, you shall lash each of them with one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity overtake you regarding God's system if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
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Peace "ayman",
Ayman you say that adultery is ONLY A PRIVATE MATTER? Could you kindly define adultery for me please? If what you understand by it is sex outside of a legal contract OR sex with another man while being together with another, then how in GOD's name can you say tht this aint a legal issue? For the 1st point when people have sex they must take responisbility for any child tht maybe born out of the relationship BEFORE engaging in intercourse so that no one can shy away from responsibility. as regs no.2 thts even more obvious. Do u really think tht it aint criminal if some guy makes out with another woman who might have STDS, then comes back to his wife at home and transfers it all to her and the child bron possibly out of tht relationship, and vice versa for the women? Have you considered tht or do u have another understanding of the term "adultery"?
And btw pornography if one does it with ones spouse THTS NOT A LEGAL ISSUE but one of morality. GOD Bless! -
Peace be upon you bro Warner,
242 ?????..let not compassion move you in their case in a matter prescribed by Allah if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
The part of the verse quoted above says the punishment should not be mild.
The God never leaves things vague in the law giving verses (see 37).
You CONJECTURE that "let not compassion/pity move you" in 242 implies that punishment should not be mild. So should it be a little more than mild ? medium ? violent/extremely forceful ? some shade between those ?
Why did The God not mention the upper limit then ?
Did He leave it up to the imams/mullah's to determine the severity and make it possible to inflict lashes violently with extremely severe force, enough to kill someone with a 100 lashes ? or to lacerate and wound the skin and leave permanent scars all over the body ?
HOW DO YOU DETERMINE THE SEVERITY GIVEN THERE IS NO UPPER LIMIT ACCORDING TO YOUR CONJECTURE OF IT MEANING NOT MILD ?
WHAT WOULD BE THE UPPER LIMIT OF SEVERITY OF LASHES ? DID THE GOD FORGET THAT ?
The God does not forget to give upper and lower limits. For example, in case of salat, He clearly gives the upper and lower limit of neither being too loud nor being too quiet
17110 Say "Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names." And do not be too loud in making your connection, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.
So how did He forget it in the case of such an important law for punishment of zina ? He could have easily said "do not be too mild, nor too forceful" for the lashes. Why didn't He ?
Thus it is obvious that by "let not compassion move you" or "let not pity overtake you", The God could only have meant not to inflict less than a hundred lashes due to compassion or pity, and not the severity of lashes because then it will be extremely vague and subjective and anyone can take full advantage of it and be violent enough to kill.
You can notice the word used in Arabic to describe the punishment is Azaab/torture.
Do you really think that public naming and shaming is not an azaab ?
Azaab can have various forms and does not only mean severe violent force enough to kill someone. Have you ever heard of Chinese water torture in which one is tortured just by repetitive drops of water on one's forehead ?
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Peace bro "Tanveer",
Have you ever heard of Chinese water torture in which one is tortured just by repetitive drops of water on one's forehead ?
JK- No ihavnt heard of tht before. Wht is the significance of this ritual for the chinese tht they take it as so degrading?
P.s I can understand not lashing the women physically but why not lash adult men who are healthy and strong even if it be physically? People justify hitting children all the time at one pt or another which i strognly condemn but whts wrong wth hitting adult strong men when theyve done severe wrong or comitted crimes? Tht i never understood. GOD Bless!
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Peace bro Khizar,
JK- No ihavnt heard of tht before. Wht is the significance of this ritual for the chinese tht they take it as so degrading?
It has nothing to do with Chinese !! Please see
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_water_torture
P.s I can understand not lashing the women physically but why not lash adult men who are healthy and strong even if it be physically? People justify hitting children all the time at one pt or another which i strognly condemn but whts wrong wth hitting adult strong men when theyve done severe wrong or comitted crimes? Tht i never understood. GOD Bless!
I never said that 242 implies no physical lashes. It does mean physical lashes but not violent or forceful enough to leave marks IMO. The lashing is more for public shaming than physical torture as evident from the 2nd part of 242.
Are you implying that women are the weaker sex physically, as far as pain endurance is concerned ? Actually, women have more fat in certain places, so they should be able to absorb the lashes better than men !! Even The God does not differentiate between men and women in 242 as far as lashes is concerned.
There is no mention in 242 that lashes should be severe/violent/forceful, otherwise The God would have given exception to the weak and the ill, like He does in other places. He does not want us to have any pity as far as the system prescribed by Him, i.e. the number of lashes. The public shaming is the real purpose of the lashes.