Mohsannat? A new understanding(very imp)
-
Salaam warner
According to the prevailing understanding, yes. However, my understanding finds this quite logical and necesary.
As I mentioned befoe, mu7san means immune. Immune of what? I believe it is immune of not wanting/unable to perform sex.Verse 424 starts addressing a different category of people. It is linked to the previous verse by theme only. It is not a continuation to it. This category is those who can't/wont have sex. This is why the following verse says "wa man lam yasta6i3 6awlan an yanki7 almu7Sanat..", wrongly translated as (cannot afford). The verb used is (unable) not (cannot). I also showed that poverty and richness are to be left to God as per verse 2432 and we should not worry about that.
That's why this wedlock is called (milkul-yameen) i.e. it is a special covenant/oath between two, one of whom is at least unable/cannot have sex. The other is their milkul-yameen. So, this other accepted this relation and promise to not want sex (promised to be a voluntary MMA). But suppose in a moment of weakness they commit adultry (because they are not having sex with their partner), then God considers their condition as extenuation circumstances, and hence the punishment is lightened (half of the mu7San).
-
Peace Samia
Thanks for being in at least one thread but keep watching the other one as well since maybe we will find the clues in that.
425 .and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honorably married/MUHSANAT they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women/MUHSANAT (in that case)
wa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna bil ma'ru_fi muhsana_tin gaira musa_fiha_tiw wa la_ muttakhiza_ti akhda_n(in), fa iza_ uhsinna fa in ataina bi fa_hisyatin fa 'alaihinna nisfu ma_ 'alal muhsana_ti minal 'aza_b(i),
According to 425 does the MMA become a Muhsanat when she is taken in marriage?
Also the MMA receives half the punishment of a Muhsanat if she commits fahisha after marriage.peace brother warner
ya you are right, she will enter into the category of mohsinnat ,what i think , Not because she has Married, but because she has been upgraded, Now at this stage if she is divorced , do you think that she will stay in the Mohsinnat cateory? or would drop back?peace
siki
-
Salaam siki, warner and all
According to 425 does the MMA become a Muhsanat when she is taken in marriage?
Also the MMA receives half the punishment of a Muhsanat if she commits fahisha after marriage.Remember, she/he is already married! But if she/he change their stance from not-wanting sex to wanting it (become mu7san), then their punishment is half, since they can't have it with the husband/wife (who are the unable to marry a mu7san)
Look at verse 6612 And Mariam, daughter of Imran, who "a7sanat farajaha"...i.e who immuned it from "should not have sex or marriage because she was given to the monastry". The translation (guarded her chastity) is wrong, because in this meaning the Quraan uses the verb (7afatha) as in verses 24 30; 2431; 3335; 235; 7029.
-
Peace be with you
I have told my self not to post on Mohsanat unless there is something new to add or question.
I think one major problem in analyzing Mohasanat is we have been analyzing the word Mohsanat independently. Whereas we should analyze the following terms in which the word ?Mohsanat? is used in different connections and contexts.
1 Al Muhsanati ( 244 and 425)
2 Al Muhsanatu min al Nisa ( 424 )
3 Al Muhsanati al Muminati (425 )
4 Al Muhsanati min al Muminati ( 55 )
5 Al Muhsanatu min Allatheena utoo al kitaba (55)
For instance although the word Mohsanat is used in both 424 and 425 we can see two different words ?Nisa? and ?Muminati? are used after ?Mohsanat? in the terms which should give two different meanings to the 2 terms . The two different meanings should justify the very obvious contradiction.
I am not forcing any theories and like to hear your opinion on this.
-
Peace Warner , all
Peace Almarhom
Thanks for indicating the verse.
What do you think is the difference between ?Al Muhsanatu min al Nisa? and ?Al Muhsanati al Muminati??
-
The Chaste One from the Women in General . ( Why changed Chaste into Self Protected ? Any reasonable person would know that a Woman is the Sole Protector of her Body or Genitalia . No amount of guarding by her Parents/Guardians could prevent her from engaging in an Illicit sexual act if she really wanted to. So Imo , the appropriate word is Chaste Woman rather than Self Protected Nonsense ).
-
The Chaste of the Believing Women . ( Please do not assume that believing Women are Free from Sexual Needs and not All of them can control their Desire , after all , they are human and Allah in His Infinite Wisdom knew that before He gave us these Verses ) .
This is my opinion only of course but I do sincerely believe We do not have to Re-Translate every Word that earlier Translators of The Quran have done .
Wassalamu' alaa manittaba'al hudaa
almarh0m
-
-
Peace Warner
Peace Almarhom
I do not subscribe to the ?self protected theories?.
Why do you think ?The Chaste One from the Women in General? are prohibited to be married in 424
My understanding is that " Married Women in General " ( with the exception of The Divorcees and The Widowed Women ) . " Chaste Women " means , women who guard their chastity , decent women who will not engage in any sexual acts unless it is with their Lawful Spouse . So , I have no problem with the Verse Translation , as prohibition to marry an already married woman is self explanatory .
I am glad you do not subscribe to the Self Protected Women Nonsense ( It conjures up medieaval images of women walking around with Chastity Belts in order to protect their/ her private parts ) . We all know that every man amd woman is the Keeper of his / her own body and private parts , so Self Protected sounds Ridiculous , at least to me .
Peace
-
Why do you think ?The Chaste One from the Women in General? are prohibited to be married in 424? (warner)
prohibition to marry an already married woman is self explanatory. (almarh0m )
In my opinion the question actually is why are "The Chaste One(s) from the Women in General" or rather the mohsanat in 424 supposed to be married; why are they not considered to be engaged? Especially when you see that the following verse, 425, deals with the way you should approach the mohsanaat and the ma malakat ayman ukum differently?
You propose to the mohsanat directly to themselves whereas you do that indirectly when the ma malakat ayman ukum are concerned, first taking permission from their families.
So the same term mohsanaat in the two successive verses, 424 and 425, means the same independent single chaste women, the ma malakat ayman ukum being dependent.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Peace Brook , all
Why do you think ?The Chaste One from the Women in General? are prohibited to be married in 424? (warner)
prohibition to marry an already married woman is self explanatory. (almarh0m )
In my opinion the question actually is why are "The Chaste One(s) from the Women in General" or rather the mohsanat in 424 supposed to be married; why are they not considered to be engaged? Especially when you see that the following verse, 425, deals with the way you should approach the mohsanaat and the ma malakat ayman ukum differently?
You propose to the mohsanat directly to themselves whereas you do that indirectly when the ma malakat ayman ukum are concerned, first taking permission from their families.
So the same term mohsanaat in the two successive verses, 424 and 425, means the same independent single chaste women, the ma malakat ayman ukum being dependent.
Peace,
Hasan AkcayAnd your Defintion/Description of Independent Women is ...? And why do you think to propose to MMA ( "Dependent Women" - your description ), has to be done Indirectly or through their Guardian ?
Imo , MMA are The Wards of The State , and this may include Orphans , Poor People's Children , Run-Away and people Un-able to look after themselves . People in this category do not necessarily live in a State's Intitution but could be entrusted to families , hence The Consent of the Authority or their Guardian is needed in order to marry them .
As for the Mohsanat , it is clear why you cannot marry them , and why you can approach directly the "Widowed" and the "Divorced" for marriage .
I do not see Concept of Engagement as Per Quran acceptable in an Islamic Context , You know how easily an Engagement is Broken but not so with marriage as it has certain conditions . Don't you think a Engagement is nothing but a De facto trial marriage ? The only Muslim country that allows this practice albeit Un-Officially is malaysia , unless of course the People in the Forum know other Places that do so .
Peace
-
Peace Brook
I will rather leave my question as it is except change the ?ARE? for IS.
You are still concentrating only on the word Mohsanat and not the term in which Mohsanat is used.
Does a man have to ask permission from the people of Ma Malakat Aymanakum before he unprotects(expose) his private parts on her?
Does a man have to ask permission from the people of Mohsanat before he unprotects(expose) his private parts on her?
-
-
Peace Almarhom
Thanks for indicating the verse.
What do you think is the difference between ?Al Muhsanatu min al Nisa? and ?Al Muhsanati al Muminati??
4-24 is the only verse which is in exact contradiction , to the common understanding and rest all are in perfect harmony.
I don't find any contradiction in 4-24 and 25, the terms are appropriately used, 24 is in context to all women ,and is in contrast to hurrmat,(Haram) for all mankind. Whereas 25 is talking of marriage with mohsinnat out of believing women,and even preconditioning MMa marriage to believing MMA maidens.
peacesiki
-
-
peace warner , almarhoom
As there is no doubt that 4-24 is the only verse in whole quran which is in exact contradiction to the understood meanings of Term, MOhsinnat"
It is in contradiction because we are linking it with 4-23, where as there is no prohibition either with the word "MOhsinnat" or in the verse anywhere.
The problem occurs ,
when we take this prohibition in continuity for granted , we end up justifying it by giving it a contradictory meaning (mohsinnat , as married women)My question is , why are we linking it ?
See 4-22, there is a prohibited word for your fathers wife, now go to 4-23 ,, again there is a prohibited word for the rest of the women,
Above two verses are in continuity , yet words for prohibitions in both the verses are independently used.
it is very important that there is no word or any prohibition in 4-24.
peace
siki
-
what is the term for Married women in Arabic or Quran?
peace
siki
Salaam siki
The quran does not talk about married women/men, just as it does not talk about male/female orphans, simply because God does not dfferentiate between responsibilities, and thus rights, on gender basis. If you searcn the quraan, you will find that the only specificed job/task linked to a gendr is birth to women, and based on this she has extra rights.
But I still see that you, and others, are studiously trying to explain "muhsanaat/MMA" as only feminine!
Also, when God gave an example of "mu'minuun, and kafiruun, m.p" , the exampls were of women, a strong reminder to those who think, that females are always there in the address, and that grammatical gender is just a tool, not a reality.
-
Salaam siki
t is very important that there is no word or any prohibition in 4-24.
It is wa-l muhsanaat. What does "wa and" serve? They are also prohibited. Just because this meaning does not accommodate your understanding of the term, is not a justification to twist universal grammar, not just Arabic.
So try to work on another meaning.
-
Peace Samia
All this and more categories are mentioned in the Quraan identifying genders separately.
Husband, wife
Son, daughter
Brother, sister
Mother, father
Young girl, young boy
Slave woman, slave man
Believing men, believing women
Zani, zaniaAs for muminun and kafirun Quraan identifies them in separate genders also.
From which verse did you derive MMA includes men ?
-
Peace Samia
All this and more categories are mentioned in the Quraan identifying genders separately.
Husband, wife
Son, daughter
Brother, sister
Mother, father
Young girl, young boy
Slave woman, slave man
Believing men, believing women
Zani, zaniaAs for muminun and kafirun Quraan identifies them in separate genders also.
From which verse did you derive MMA includes men ?
You seem not to understand what I said. I mentioned the address mainly, and the rights and responsibilities
How are the rights and responsibilities of mumin/aat different?
Where is young girl and young boy mentiond in rights and responsibilities?
What is the different treatment of the zani from the zania?
I did not say the quraan did not mention feminine and masculine genders, I said it did not differentiate between their responsibilities and rights on the basis of their gender.