Mohsannat? A new understanding(very imp)
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Peace Warner
Peace Almarhom
I do not subscribe to the ?self protected theories?.
Why do you think ?The Chaste One from the Women in General? are prohibited to be married in 424
My understanding is that " Married Women in General " ( with the exception of The Divorcees and The Widowed Women ) . " Chaste Women " means , women who guard their chastity , decent women who will not engage in any sexual acts unless it is with their Lawful Spouse . So , I have no problem with the Verse Translation , as prohibition to marry an already married woman is self explanatory .
I am glad you do not subscribe to the Self Protected Women Nonsense ( It conjures up medieaval images of women walking around with Chastity Belts in order to protect their/ her private parts ) . We all know that every man amd woman is the Keeper of his / her own body and private parts , so Self Protected sounds Ridiculous , at least to me .
Peace
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Why do you think ?The Chaste One from the Women in General? are prohibited to be married in 424? (warner)
prohibition to marry an already married woman is self explanatory. (almarh0m )
In my opinion the question actually is why are "The Chaste One(s) from the Women in General" or rather the mohsanat in 424 supposed to be married; why are they not considered to be engaged? Especially when you see that the following verse, 425, deals with the way you should approach the mohsanaat and the ma malakat ayman ukum differently?
You propose to the mohsanat directly to themselves whereas you do that indirectly when the ma malakat ayman ukum are concerned, first taking permission from their families.
So the same term mohsanaat in the two successive verses, 424 and 425, means the same independent single chaste women, the ma malakat ayman ukum being dependent.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Peace Brook , all
Why do you think ?The Chaste One from the Women in General? are prohibited to be married in 424? (warner)
prohibition to marry an already married woman is self explanatory. (almarh0m )
In my opinion the question actually is why are "The Chaste One(s) from the Women in General" or rather the mohsanat in 424 supposed to be married; why are they not considered to be engaged? Especially when you see that the following verse, 425, deals with the way you should approach the mohsanaat and the ma malakat ayman ukum differently?
You propose to the mohsanat directly to themselves whereas you do that indirectly when the ma malakat ayman ukum are concerned, first taking permission from their families.
So the same term mohsanaat in the two successive verses, 424 and 425, means the same independent single chaste women, the ma malakat ayman ukum being dependent.
Peace,
Hasan AkcayAnd your Defintion/Description of Independent Women is ...? And why do you think to propose to MMA ( "Dependent Women" - your description ), has to be done Indirectly or through their Guardian ?
Imo , MMA are The Wards of The State , and this may include Orphans , Poor People's Children , Run-Away and people Un-able to look after themselves . People in this category do not necessarily live in a State's Intitution but could be entrusted to families , hence The Consent of the Authority or their Guardian is needed in order to marry them .
As for the Mohsanat , it is clear why you cannot marry them , and why you can approach directly the "Widowed" and the "Divorced" for marriage .
I do not see Concept of Engagement as Per Quran acceptable in an Islamic Context , You know how easily an Engagement is Broken but not so with marriage as it has certain conditions . Don't you think a Engagement is nothing but a De facto trial marriage ? The only Muslim country that allows this practice albeit Un-Officially is malaysia , unless of course the People in the Forum know other Places that do so .
Peace
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Peace Brook
I will rather leave my question as it is except change the ?ARE? for IS.
You are still concentrating only on the word Mohsanat and not the term in which Mohsanat is used.
Does a man have to ask permission from the people of Ma Malakat Aymanakum before he unprotects(expose) his private parts on her?
Does a man have to ask permission from the people of Mohsanat before he unprotects(expose) his private parts on her?
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Peace Almarhom
Thanks for indicating the verse.
What do you think is the difference between ?Al Muhsanatu min al Nisa? and ?Al Muhsanati al Muminati??
4-24 is the only verse which is in exact contradiction , to the common understanding and rest all are in perfect harmony.
I don't find any contradiction in 4-24 and 25, the terms are appropriately used, 24 is in context to all women ,and is in contrast to hurrmat,(Haram) for all mankind. Whereas 25 is talking of marriage with mohsinnat out of believing women,and even preconditioning MMa marriage to believing MMA maidens.
peacesiki
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peace warner , almarhoom
As there is no doubt that 4-24 is the only verse in whole quran which is in exact contradiction to the understood meanings of Term, MOhsinnat"
It is in contradiction because we are linking it with 4-23, where as there is no prohibition either with the word "MOhsinnat" or in the verse anywhere.
The problem occurs ,
when we take this prohibition in continuity for granted , we end up justifying it by giving it a contradictory meaning (mohsinnat , as married women)My question is , why are we linking it ?
See 4-22, there is a prohibited word for your fathers wife, now go to 4-23 ,, again there is a prohibited word for the rest of the women,
Above two verses are in continuity , yet words for prohibitions in both the verses are independently used.
it is very important that there is no word or any prohibition in 4-24.
peace
siki
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what is the term for Married women in Arabic or Quran?
peace
siki
Salaam siki
The quran does not talk about married women/men, just as it does not talk about male/female orphans, simply because God does not dfferentiate between responsibilities, and thus rights, on gender basis. If you searcn the quraan, you will find that the only specificed job/task linked to a gendr is birth to women, and based on this she has extra rights.
But I still see that you, and others, are studiously trying to explain "muhsanaat/MMA" as only feminine!
Also, when God gave an example of "mu'minuun, and kafiruun, m.p" , the exampls were of women, a strong reminder to those who think, that females are always there in the address, and that grammatical gender is just a tool, not a reality.
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Salaam siki
t is very important that there is no word or any prohibition in 4-24.
It is wa-l muhsanaat. What does "wa and" serve? They are also prohibited. Just because this meaning does not accommodate your understanding of the term, is not a justification to twist universal grammar, not just Arabic.
So try to work on another meaning.
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Peace Samia
All this and more categories are mentioned in the Quraan identifying genders separately.
Husband, wife
Son, daughter
Brother, sister
Mother, father
Young girl, young boy
Slave woman, slave man
Believing men, believing women
Zani, zaniaAs for muminun and kafirun Quraan identifies them in separate genders also.
From which verse did you derive MMA includes men ?
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Peace Samia
All this and more categories are mentioned in the Quraan identifying genders separately.
Husband, wife
Son, daughter
Brother, sister
Mother, father
Young girl, young boy
Slave woman, slave man
Believing men, believing women
Zani, zaniaAs for muminun and kafirun Quraan identifies them in separate genders also.
From which verse did you derive MMA includes men ?
You seem not to understand what I said. I mentioned the address mainly, and the rights and responsibilities
How are the rights and responsibilities of mumin/aat different?
Where is young girl and young boy mentiond in rights and responsibilities?
What is the different treatment of the zani from the zania?
I did not say the quraan did not mention feminine and masculine genders, I said it did not differentiate between their responsibilities and rights on the basis of their gender.
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Salaam siki
It is wa-l muhsanaat. What does "wa and" serve? They are also prohibited. Just because this meaning does not accommodate your understanding of the term, is not a justification to twist universal grammar, not just Arabic.
So try to work on another meaning.
let,s first identify the problem then we will sort it out
Is , only this" wa " creating trouble?
peace
siki
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let,s first identify the problem then we will sort it out
Is , only this" wa " creating trouble?
peace
siki
On the contrary. It's solving the problem. At least it helps us know that "almohsnaat" in this verse are prohibited; so we might as well take it from there .
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Dear samia
you are adding a word prohibited from your own side in this verse,
why are Mohsinnat allowed everywhere else in Quran? please come up with a reason for this contradiction.
peace
siki
I am not adding anything. The "wa" is.
Because here the address changes from being to the general audience to being to the particular (i.e a particular group).
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4-24 Wa almuhsanatu mina alnnisai illa ma malakat aymanukum kitaba Allahi AAalaykum waohilla lakum ma waraa thalikum an tabtaghoo biamwalikum muhsineena ghayra musafiheena fama istamtaAAtum bihi minhunna faatoohunna ojoorahunna fareedatan wala junaha AAalaykum feema taradaytum bihi min baAAdi alfareedati inna Allaha kana AAaleeman hakeeman
Now let us translate word by word .
4-24 AND MOHSANNAT OUT OF NISA EXCEPT MMA GOD?S BOOK IS OVER YOU
AND LAWFUL FOR YOU BESIDES THOSE THAT YOU SEEK WITH YOUR
WEALTH IN A FAIR RELATIONSHIP NOT MUSAAFIHEEN THEN WHAT
BENEFIT YOU DERIVE WITH IT FROM THEM THEN GIVE THEM THEIR
DOWERS AS APPOINTED AND NO BLAME UPON YOU WHAT YOU
MUTTALLY AGREE WITH
peace
siki
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And your Defintion/Description of Independent Women is ...? (almarh0m)
Women who can decide for themselves in terms of personal matters such as marriage. Widows are independent.
And why do you think to propose to MMA ( "Dependent Women" - your description), has to be done Indirectly or through their Guardian?
Because that is what God says in al-nisa 25 Marry them then with their people?s leave...
As for the Mohsanat, it is clear why you cannot marry them, and why you can approach directly the "Widowed" and the "Divorced" for marriage.
You surely can marry the mohsanat in al-nisa 25.
Sorry I don?t understand the underlined part of your sentence. Will you please explain.
Does a man have to ask permission from the people of Ma Malakat Aymanakum before he unprotects (expose) his private parts on her? (warner)
Certainly. If he is NOT married to her. But if he is married to her, as is indicated in 235-6 and 7029-30, it is natural that he does not have to ask for permission.
Does a man have to ask permission from the people of Mohsanat before he unprotects(expose) his private parts on her?
Again it depends on whether he is married with them or not.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay