Mohsannat? A new understanding(very imp)
-
peace warner , almarhoom
As there is no doubt that 4-24 is the only verse in whole quran which is in exact contradiction to the understood meanings of Term, MOhsinnat"
It is in contradiction because we are linking it with 4-23, where as there is no prohibition either with the word "MOhsinnat" or in the verse anywhere.
The problem occurs ,
when we take this prohibition in continuity for granted , we end up justifying it by giving it a contradictory meaning (mohsinnat , as married women)My question is , why are we linking it ?
See 4-22, there is a prohibited word for your fathers wife, now go to 4-23 ,, again there is a prohibited word for the rest of the women,
Above two verses are in continuity , yet words for prohibitions in both the verses are independently used.
it is very important that there is no word or any prohibition in 4-24.
peace
siki
-
what is the term for Married women in Arabic or Quran?
peace
siki
Salaam siki
The quran does not talk about married women/men, just as it does not talk about male/female orphans, simply because God does not dfferentiate between responsibilities, and thus rights, on gender basis. If you searcn the quraan, you will find that the only specificed job/task linked to a gendr is birth to women, and based on this she has extra rights.
But I still see that you, and others, are studiously trying to explain "muhsanaat/MMA" as only feminine!
Also, when God gave an example of "mu'minuun, and kafiruun, m.p" , the exampls were of women, a strong reminder to those who think, that females are always there in the address, and that grammatical gender is just a tool, not a reality.
-
Salaam siki
t is very important that there is no word or any prohibition in 4-24.
It is wa-l muhsanaat. What does "wa and" serve? They are also prohibited. Just because this meaning does not accommodate your understanding of the term, is not a justification to twist universal grammar, not just Arabic.
So try to work on another meaning.
-
Peace Samia
All this and more categories are mentioned in the Quraan identifying genders separately.
Husband, wife
Son, daughter
Brother, sister
Mother, father
Young girl, young boy
Slave woman, slave man
Believing men, believing women
Zani, zaniaAs for muminun and kafirun Quraan identifies them in separate genders also.
From which verse did you derive MMA includes men ?
-
Peace Samia
All this and more categories are mentioned in the Quraan identifying genders separately.
Husband, wife
Son, daughter
Brother, sister
Mother, father
Young girl, young boy
Slave woman, slave man
Believing men, believing women
Zani, zaniaAs for muminun and kafirun Quraan identifies them in separate genders also.
From which verse did you derive MMA includes men ?
You seem not to understand what I said. I mentioned the address mainly, and the rights and responsibilities
How are the rights and responsibilities of mumin/aat different?
Where is young girl and young boy mentiond in rights and responsibilities?
What is the different treatment of the zani from the zania?
I did not say the quraan did not mention feminine and masculine genders, I said it did not differentiate between their responsibilities and rights on the basis of their gender.
-
Salaam siki
It is wa-l muhsanaat. What does "wa and" serve? They are also prohibited. Just because this meaning does not accommodate your understanding of the term, is not a justification to twist universal grammar, not just Arabic.
So try to work on another meaning.
let,s first identify the problem then we will sort it out
Is , only this" wa " creating trouble?
peace
siki
-
let,s first identify the problem then we will sort it out
Is , only this" wa " creating trouble?
peace
siki
On the contrary. It's solving the problem. At least it helps us know that "almohsnaat" in this verse are prohibited; so we might as well take it from there .
-
Dear samia
you are adding a word prohibited from your own side in this verse,
why are Mohsinnat allowed everywhere else in Quran? please come up with a reason for this contradiction.
peace
siki
I am not adding anything. The "wa" is.
Because here the address changes from being to the general audience to being to the particular (i.e a particular group).
-
4-24 Wa almuhsanatu mina alnnisai illa ma malakat aymanukum kitaba Allahi AAalaykum waohilla lakum ma waraa thalikum an tabtaghoo biamwalikum muhsineena ghayra musafiheena fama istamtaAAtum bihi minhunna faatoohunna ojoorahunna fareedatan wala junaha AAalaykum feema taradaytum bihi min baAAdi alfareedati inna Allaha kana AAaleeman hakeeman
Now let us translate word by word .
4-24 AND MOHSANNAT OUT OF NISA EXCEPT MMA GOD?S BOOK IS OVER YOU
AND LAWFUL FOR YOU BESIDES THOSE THAT YOU SEEK WITH YOUR
WEALTH IN A FAIR RELATIONSHIP NOT MUSAAFIHEEN THEN WHAT
BENEFIT YOU DERIVE WITH IT FROM THEM THEN GIVE THEM THEIR
DOWERS AS APPOINTED AND NO BLAME UPON YOU WHAT YOU
MUTTALLY AGREE WITH
peace
siki
-
And your Defintion/Description of Independent Women is ...? (almarh0m)
Women who can decide for themselves in terms of personal matters such as marriage. Widows are independent.
And why do you think to propose to MMA ( "Dependent Women" - your description), has to be done Indirectly or through their Guardian?
Because that is what God says in al-nisa 25 Marry them then with their people?s leave...
As for the Mohsanat, it is clear why you cannot marry them, and why you can approach directly the "Widowed" and the "Divorced" for marriage.
You surely can marry the mohsanat in al-nisa 25.
Sorry I don?t understand the underlined part of your sentence. Will you please explain.
Does a man have to ask permission from the people of Ma Malakat Aymanakum before he unprotects (expose) his private parts on her? (warner)
Certainly. If he is NOT married to her. But if he is married to her, as is indicated in 235-6 and 7029-30, it is natural that he does not have to ask for permission.
Does a man have to ask permission from the people of Mohsanat before he unprotects(expose) his private parts on her?
Again it depends on whether he is married with them or not.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Peace Siki
Currently it is based on the following.
My opinion is we must not look only at Mohsanat but the
term which it is used in .Peace be with you
I have told my self not to post on Mohsanat unless there is something new to add or question.
I think one major problem in analyzing Mohasanat is we have been analyzing the word Mohsanat independently. Whereas we should analyze the following terms in which the word Mohsanat is used in different connections and contexts.
1 Al Muhsanati ( 244 and 425)
2 Al Muhsanatu min al Nisa ( 424 )
3 Al Muhsanati al Muminati (425 )
4 Al Muhsanati min al Muminati ( 55 )
5 Al Muhsanatu min Allatheena utoo al kitaba (55)
For instance although the word Mohsanat is used in both 424 and 425 we can see two different words Nisa and Muminati are used after Mohsanat in the terms which should give two different meanings to the 2 terms . The two different meanings should justify the very obvious contradiction.
I am not forcing any theories and like to hear your opinion on this.
-
Peace Brook
Can you kindly translate and define Ma Malakt Aymanakum
Ma malakat ayman ukum are those whom your oaths have.
They are of two types
(1)those whom you wow to marry (236, 3350, 3352, 7030).
(2)those whom you wow to keep under your custody (43, 424, 425, 2431, 2433, 2458, 3355)The ones whom you wow to have under custody may be male (2433) or female (43).
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Peace Brook
You missed the following verses. Which category are they?
30 28
Yusuf Ali He does propound to you a similitude from your own (experience) do ye have partners among those whom your right hands possess to share as equals in the wealth We have bestowed on you? Do ye fear them as ye fear each other? Thus do We explain the Signs in detail to a people that understand.16 71
Yusuf Ali Allah has bestowed His gifts of sustenance more freely on some of you than on others; those more favored are not going to throw back their gifts to those whom their right hands possess so as to be equal in that respect. Will they then deny the favors of Allah?Don?t you think 43, 424; 425 are connected to marriage.
Also according to 425 you need to get permission to MARRY from the people of ?Those whom you wow to marry?. That means you have already wowed/promised to marry before seeking permission i.e. the relationship of MMA has started before asking for permission to marry according to the verse. Since the permission is for marriage and relationship of MMA has started before this , a person can expose his private parts to a MMA according to 236 and 7030 . For this purpose permission is not required from the people of the MMA.
-
Peace warner.
The ma malakat ayman ukum in 3028 and 1671 are the ones whom you have under your custody since you are not supposed to share with them the possessions your family have. If they were your wives, you would.
Don?t you think 43, 424; 425 are connected to marriage.
No.
43 is about your marrying off your orphan women and ma malakat ayman each to a man. You are not supposed to marry them yourself.
424 and 425 are about your ways of proposing to dependent and independent women, with a possibility for the ones in 424 to be Christian or Jewish.
Also according to 425 you need to get permission to MARRY from the people of ?Those whom you wow to marry?. That means you have already wowed/promised to marry..
No. They are other people?s ma malakat ayman, not yours. When their people give them permission to marry you, they will become like the other independent women in terms of their status.
The ones mentioned in 236 and 7030 have already married with you through your oaths. That is why you are not blamed if you show your private parts to them. The ones in 3350 and 3352 are the Prophet's wives through his oath.
Hasan Akcay
-
Peace Brook
It is THEIR MMA and NOT someone else?s MMA.
425 ma_ malakat aima_nukum whom your right hand posses
23 6 ma_ malakat aima_nuhum whom their right hand posses
2431 ma_ malakat aima_nuhun na whom their right hands possess
Due to this, according to your theory a man can expose his private parts to MMA (engaged girl) without permission since permission is only for marriage and not even for engagement.
Sometimes people give their entire wealth to adopted children .Some even to their pets. We see this happening quite often. Giving wealth to a adopted son or daughter or treating them as equal is very common unless you want to challenge Allahs example.
-
Dear Warner and Samia.
let me try and explain one more time The Mohsinnats in 4-24
4-22, bans nikah with the women who were previously married to one's father,
4-23, bans any sexual contant with 13 kind of women with the word hurmat
both verses conclude the issue by saying , except what is preceded.
and now 4-24
"AND MOHSANNAT OUT OF NISA EXCEPT MMA GOD?S BOOK IS OVER YOU AND LAWFUL FOR YOU BESIDES THOSE THAT YOU SEEK WITH YOUR WEALTH IN A FAIR RELATIONSHIP NOT MUSAAFIHEEN THEN WHAT BENEFIT YOU DERIVE WITH IT FROM THEM THEN GIVE THEM THEIR DOWERS AS APPOINTED AND NO BLAME UPON YOU WHAT YOU MUTTALLY AGREE WITH"
consider either of the two possibilities listed below
- After listing the prohibited , God starts discussing the rest of the women by saying
"And the MOhsinnats" except MMa
God decrees a law , that for the rest, you must seek them in a proper contract/relationship before sexual contact(The MMA stay as an exception to this universal law)
Now if you still insist upon connecting 4-24 with 4-23 and continue to link the banning, with Mohsinnats in 4-24
consider the following option
- 4-22 bans wives of your fathers,
4-23 bans sexual contact with 11, unconditionally and bans 2 more under certain conditions
(a)collection of two sisters,
(b) gone in a women, the daughter banned for ever, married or you had
sexual contact with the women short of penetration, you may change your
mind , divorce the mother, and marry the daughter.4-24 continues the ban for the rest of women , and allows sexual contact with them only under a condition, a law decreed by God(God's book is over you), which is
seek them with your money in proper contract , before sexual contact
Not for fornication.And MMA stay as an exception to this rule
peace
siki