verse 4:3 and polygamy
-
Peace Ay
Quote Ay peace warner - i agree - thats why i asked this in my post also
"ie. marry off your single slaves? (but why is there an "and" between single and slaves?)"Sorry Ay, I misunderstood what you said. Actually here we are saying the same thing.
Quraan does not have imbalanced sentences with a big hole as this one.My question to someone who says al ayaama means single is,
?Is it alright to marry off non single (married) slaves ???
-
Quote AY how is 424 not forbidding polyandry when it states forbidden to you are women already married....
so u cant marry an already married woman - but where does it say anything to women about marrying(or not) an already married man?
and the prohibition of polyandry makes alot of sense to me.... and if i understand polygany in light of islam and its message of social justice then it makes sense to allow men to marry widows with children (if that is indeed what it is saying?!!?) taking into consideration the historical context of the verses also (lots of wars, many men dying, many orphan children etc)
Peace Siki and Ay
I believe it is obvious in 424 Mohsanat al Nisa are married women among the believers and among the women from the people of the book. What can make all women protected/committed or immune in the broadest sense?
Thus 424 automatically bans polyandry on the reverse application of that law.
In 425 Mohsanat al Muminat should be believing women who are not Fatayat or Ma Malakat Ayman and have not been convicted of zina. Also if a woman is known to be unchaste she can not be Mohsanat.
Mohsanati should be chaste women among the believers and among the women from the people of the book and (possibly married from Ma Malaktat Ayman)
Kindly add your thoughts if I have missed anything
-
peace warner Ay
I had asked earlier, what is the arbaic/quran uses for married women?
Do we have any example from quran where "Mohsinnat" is used for married women?
We have to have one consistent meaning for Mohsinnat, if God meant to ban married women , it should have been clearly indicated as , "and the already married Mohsinnats".
siki
-
Dear warner Ay and Imam
let me start be clearly stating , that 4-24 could be any thing but , "prohibiting another marriage of married women"(polyandry).
But what is puzzling is there is been No verse clearly prohibiting polyandry", where as it is a fact , and makes perfect sense for polyandry to be prohibited/ banned.
Brother imam's theory "C" for Ayyaama" , if correct could be the verse prohibiting polyandry.
peace
siki
-
Peace all,
"Mohsanat" means "protected" and specifically "self-protected" or "independent" because it is used in CONTRAST with "fatayat" in 425. "Fatayat" means "young females", and because we have to obtain permission from their parents/guardians, "fatayat" are "parent/guardian dependent" and thus "mohsanat" would be "self-protected/independent", considering that al-qur'aan is its own dictionary !
"Mohsanat" or "self-protected/independent" include the following 3 types
- Self-protected single (includes never married, divorced, widowed)
- Self-protected married
- Self-protected engaged (ma malakat aymanukum as per 424)
In 424, "ma malakat aymanukum" is a subset of "mohsanat" because of the word "illa"/except used after "mohsanat". Thus the "ma malakat aymanukum" mentioned in 424 are also "mohsanat", but those "mohsanat" that are engaged. The meaning of 424, therefore, is that we are forbidden to get romantically involved with "mohsanat" except after getting engaged to them, and thus the only way to get romantically involved with "mohsanat" is to get engaged with them, and then marry them.
In 425, if we are unable to marry the self-protected/independent/"mohsanat" (after getting engaged to them per 424), then we are advised to marry the parent/guardian dependent young females/"fatayat" after getting engaged to them.
"Mohsanat" CANNOT MEAN CHASTE per usage in al-qur'aan because then that definition would make "fatayat" UNCHASTE in 425, because "fatayat" is used in contrast with "mohsanat" in that verse. It can only mean "protected" and specifically "self-protected/independent" as explained above.
As sister Samia has said, we cannot ignore the "wa" at the beginning of 424, which connects 424 with 423 and makes it a continuation of the forbidden categories. Thus "mohsanat" are forbidden except those with whom we have made an oath to get married.
-
Salaam Tanweer
Do you mean that "fatayaat" are minors? If yes, Does quraan encourages the marriage with minos?
If no, i.e if they are adults, then they are self protected as per Islam.
I do not understand what is this "guardian". Why should girls have "guardians", but not boys? And what is the "guadian" supposed to do, or can do, to protect some adult, other than for financial matters? And even here, this kind of protection is not specific to "females", but to the needy, irrespective of their gender.
I hope you get rid of these understandings that reflect traditions and/or the so called islamic laws..
"Ask permission of their family" is not because they are not self protected, but because this knd of liaison (milkul yameen) between someone who can't/wont have sex (MMA) needs that the woman/man consult more than themselevs, and that their families are aware of their choice.
Also, "mu7san" is not self protected. It is the participle of the verb "a7sana", not "hassana" which means to protect.
-
Peace Siki
Do not concentrate only on the word MohSanat , please study the term and the context and various forms as well.
4 25
If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess and Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another wed them with the leave of their people and give them their dowers according to what is reasonable they should be chaste not lustful nor taking secret lovers so if they married if they fall into shame their punishment is half that for mohsanat women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practice self-restraint and Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.
Wa mal lam yastati' minkum taulan ay yankihal muhsana_til mu'mina_ti famimma_ malakat aima_nukum min fataya_tikumul mu'mina_t(i), walla_ a'lamu bi ima_nikum, ba'dukum mim ba'd(in), fankihu_hunna bi izni ahlihinna wa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna bil ma'ru_fi muhsana_tin gaira musa_fiha_tiw wa la_ muttakhiza_ti akhda_n(in), fa iza_ uhsinna fa in ataina bi fa_hisyatin fa 'alaihinna nisfu ma_ 'alal muhsana_ti minal 'aza_b(i), za_lika liman khasyiyal'anata minkum, wa anbiru_ khairul lakum, walla_hu gafu_rur rahim(un).
The bold part ?fa iza_ uhsinna? means ?so if they married? or ?so when they married?. The word ?uhsinna? meaning ?marriage? here is from the root Ha-Sad-Nun same as Mohsanat . The rest of the verse clarifies this more clearly.
-
Salaam warner
You say
so if they married if they fall into shame their punishment is half that for mohsanat women.
, and I rephrase "so if they are married.....their punishment is half that for married women"Right?
If yes,
can you see any problem?
Also, would you please tell me what that punishment is?
And what would have been their punishment if they had not married? -
Peace Samia
The punishment is 50 lashes, half of what is commanded in 242.
Why? I mean why is this "sale" ?
My other question what would be the punishment if they were not married?
As for my understanding, it is in more than a thread (probably in this one, too), and you were part of the participants. Do you want me to undrstand that you were not reading other points of view?
-
Dear warner
I think we(you, me, and samia etc) are probably way ahead of the past translators on the subject, so i don't expect you to just blindly quote translation of somebody and then build your case upon, how do you think that Ahsinna means marriage?
i say it once again , that a Fatayat of believing MMA does not become a MOhsinna because she is married, but is a MOhsinna now because she is kinda semi upgraded, she was a MMA who could be , or was being used as a sex slave with no compensation(ujoors),and with no inheritance for children ,(if any) to a level where she enters into a better contract with security.
peace
siki
-
Peace Siki
I was not quoting translators; if I quote, I post their name so I will not incur any copy right violations. It was my understanding. In this case many of the past translators were correct.
The first part of 425 explains the operation of marriage;marrying, paying dower correctly, in commitment, not being loose and not taking secret lovers.
Then the verse says ?fa iza_ uhsinna? . Now you tell me what it means.
-
Dear warner
If we take 4-24,s mohsinnat as married women, then in all the other occurrences of Mohsinnats ; God is asking you to marry the married women , meaning , He is pressing for polyandry.
The contradictions are absolutely drastic. Try and give a willing "try"to my theory, or may be try and improve upon it , i think, that would be "the path "which will leads us out of this riddle.
siki
-
Can I just say something? It doesn
t really have to do with the quran, matters of translation etc. But it seems to me that polygamy (polyandry, call it what you will MUST be allowed in very LIMITED circumstances. This is because, as far as I know, at any given time, the ratio of men to women is more or less equal. Lets not forget that the quran provides a WORLD view. More male babies are born than female ones, but more male babies tend to die than female ones (males are physiologically weaker than females) so that at around 1-5 years of age, the ratio of males to females becomes more or less equal. In peacetime in any nation, the ratio of males to females is equal. During wartime, females may slightly outnumber men for obvious reasons but at no point does the female population become DOUBLE, let alone triple or quadruple, than that of men. If polygamy (or polyandry) were allowed in all circumstances (and assuming a man can marry upto 4 women) then the ratio of women to men should have been 41 !!! Otherwise, you are promoting the view that only a minority of men can marry (for they will be marrying the women that make up other men`s "share" so to speak, and the rest have to do without marriage.The fact is that the population of women only exceeds that of men by a slight degree in times of war etc. It doesn`t even become DOUBLE that of men, in which scenario men could marry up to TWO women and not more than that, let alone become triple or more!
-
Peace Samia
Does the verse say ?she fa iza_ uhsinna??? It doesn?t.
It is obvious from the other uses of HShN in the Quraan ?ahsanat farajaha? means protecting the private parts or being chaste. That doesn?t mean every derivative of HShN should mean protect in the same sense. Marriage is an English word with different connotations. But I like to remind marriage is a legal protection. Also it is a protection against sin and protection against shame. Will you be happy if I use wedlock instead. Locks protect.
What do you think ?fa iza_ uhsinna? in 425 means? I can't recall seeing your explanation on this before.
-
Salaam warner
It is the same verb, not just the same root. uhsinna is the passive of ahsana. And the quraan uses "hafizuun furuujahum" for "protecting their private parts, not "muhsinuun furajahum".
And if I may ask, what does marriage protect from? Sex outside marriage? No, it does not. Patience does, as per quraan. A brat is a brat and a righteous is a righteous, whether they get married or not. Otherwise some people wouldn't have invented open permission for polygamy and mut3a.
-
Peace siki
?MohSanat? and ?fa iza_ uhsinna? are they same?
424 is not ?MohSanat? it is ?Mohsanat min al Nisa?.
Comparing ?Mohsanat min al Nisa? in 424 and ?Mohsanat al muminati? in 425 is like comparing the terms ?a good man? and ?a good Christian? or the terms ?a good man? and ?a good hunter?. The meaning of ?good? and the implication and the term varies accordingly.
A ?good Christian woman? and ?a Christian good woman? or rather ?a good woman among the Christians?. Do these two phrases have the same meaning? Is She a good Christian or a good woman or both?
Do not underestimate the Quranic logic. The terms in which MohSanat is used in the Quraan are similar to the different terms above, constructed using ?Good?.
Even though the word ?good? is present in every term the meaning is not the same.
What do you think ?fa iza_ uhsinna? means ?
-
Peace Samia
Protect, guard, secure, preserve. Are they all same ? Why do you want Ha-Fa-Za and Ha-Sad-Nun to mean the same thing?
Words from both roots are used in the Quraan few times making the meanings quite clear.
In muhisinan gaira musa_fihin(a)( 424 ) Muhsinina is shown in contrast to Musafinhina(Siin-Fa-Ha) meaning poured forth/out poured . Same contrast is repeated in 425 and 55.
What is poured forth is contrasted with what is locked in. I didn?t mean to say locked inside the house. I meant locked in commitment, legally. I thought you will prefer wed lock.
Other than the protection from shame it is the legal protection to co habit to have sex and to bring up children. Legal protection for ujoor, support, divorce and maintenance also legal protection for inheritance. Sex outside legal protection is covered in 415-16 and 242 upwards.
There is open permission for polygamy in the Quraan , I thought this debate is on that.
I still like to know what ?fa iza_ uhsinna? in 425 means?